Throttle body upgrade

AU1monty · 08-01-2010, 04:52 PM

can a worthwile power gain be acheived by upgrading the throttle body on an AU series 1 fairmont with vct and if so what sort of price would i be looking at

Beer Baron · 08-01-2010, 07:28 PM

There isnt much to be gained for near stock motor, Other areas would result in better gains first.

The Monty · 08-01-2010, 08:13 PM

Just done this to my mums car, 2.5 inch Lukey, modded aitbox and KandN filter, and she didnt even know I put it on there until I told her. So power gains, you wont feel a thing.

Sox · 09-01-2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU1monty

can a worthwile power gain be acheived by upgrading the throttle body on an AU series 1 fairmont with vct and if so what sort of price would i be looking at

No, the standard TB is more than big enough for somewhere around 230kw.
Look at extractors, a 2.5" sports exhaust with known good quality mufflers, and a Tickford intake snorkel for starters.

I would then change diff gears to somewhere between 3.45 to 3.9 depending on what I'm doing with it and what tranny it has.

Next on the list would be a cam/springs/vernier gear, then a full head job.

AU1monty · 10-01-2010, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

No, the standard TB is more than big enough for somewhere around 230kw.
Look at extractors, a 2.5" sports exhaust with known good quality mufflers, and a Tickford intake snorkel for starters.

I would then change diff gears to somewhere between 3.45 to 3.9 depending on what I'm doing with it and what tranny it has.

Next on the list would be a cam/springs/vernier gear, then a full head job.

will something like this do? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EF-EL-AU...item518faef070

anyone know anywhere in SE melbourne that does good exhausts and extractors?

also im on my red P's atm and the laws are a bit sketchy on modifying your car, what do u reckon i can get away with?

Sox · 10-01-2010, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU1monty

will something like this do? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EF-EL-AU...item518faef070

That's the exact one you want.

Quote:

anyone know anywhere in SE melbourne that does good exhausts and extractors?

Jim Mock Motorsport.
Pricey, but you get what you pay for.

Quote:

also im on my red P's atm and the laws are a bit sketchy on modifying your car, what do u reckon i can get away with?

No idea on that one, haven't been on my P's for over 20 years.
I personally can't see extractors/exhaust/intake snorkel to be a problem but then as I said, I don't really know.
The key is to keep it pretty quiet and don't attract attention to your self.

Sox · 10-01-2010, 12:38 PM

You could also grab a set of these -

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EA-EL-AU...item3efbc68a98

Dirt cheap, and not as well made as the JMM ones, but similar design.
Excellent for the $$.

I threw a set on my hack and they do just fine.

KR1STO · 10-01-2010, 12:42 PM

any gains from those extractors Sox?

POELWYK · 10-01-2010, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU1monty

also I'm on my red P's ATM and the laws are a bit sketchy on modifying your car, what do u reckon i can get away with?

I'm on my p's in melb and i have a full Exhaust system and A Jim Mock Modded Air box (3"pipe and a Pod filter in air box) and a Big Air Snorkel and i don't have any probes Stattic is on his P's and His got a Cam and a hell of alot more then me and he doesn't have a prob

POELWYK · 10-01-2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KR1STO

any gains from those extractors Sox?

Paceys make a Big Difrance the JMM ones i dont know i was told there not that good

Sox · 10-01-2010, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KR1STO

any gains from those extractors Sox?

Just the usual, throttle response improved, midrange and top end slightly better.
Otherwise that the car is only stock, so I wasn't expecting a lot.

Sox · 10-01-2010, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POELWYK

Paceys make a Big Difrance the JMM ones i dont know i was told there not that good

Which ones, I can't really make out exactly what you're saying?
IMO, the JMM race series headers are about the best available for the Ford I6.

AU1monty · 10-01-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

You could also grab a set of these -

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EA-EL-AU...item3efbc68a98

Dirt cheap, and not as well made as the JMM ones, but similar design.
Excellent for the $$.

I threw a set on my hack and they do just fine.

how much would it cost to get them put on? ive got a welder lying around somewhere but no idea how to use it.

Sox · 10-01-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU1monty

how much would it cost to get them put on? ive got a welder lying around somewhere but no idea how to use it.

Find a mate who can, they're pretty easy to fit.
Exhaust shop might charge somewhere around $150 at a rough guess.

ayeyew · 12-01-2010, 04:24 PM

I have a 68mm (i think) TB sitting in my garage

There was a guy on fordmods who did back to back (i think?) runs on a dyno and got nearly a 10rwkw difference with the 68mm TB, although the power curves were near indentical until high speed. I think this was on an E-series.

I'm hopefully gonna put my TB on in the next few months (after the springs and shocks go in), will report on any differences

Sox · 12-01-2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayeyew

I have a 68mm (i think) TB sitting in my garage

There was a guy on fordmods who did back to back (i think?) runs on a dyno and got nearly a 10rwkw difference with the 68mm TB, although the power curves were near indentical until high speed. I think this was on an E-series.

Sure, but I bet it wasn't on a standardish engine.
On a stock engine, there will be no gains.

You'd need to be making well over 230kw and spinning well past 6000rpm to see any gains from a larger TB.

The 65mm standard unit is huge for a 4L which is revving like a diesel.

Stattic · 12-01-2010, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POELWYK

I'm on my p's in melb and i have a full Exhaust system and A Jim Mock Modded Air box (3"pipe and a Pod filter in air box) and a Big Air Snorkel and i don't have any probes Stattic is on his P's and His got a Cam and a hell of alot more then me and he doesn't have a prob

most cops will let you go as long as you drive sensibly, they are a lot kinder to falcons than they are to 3" exhaust pig VNs and ricer cars
BUT... i have been warned about driving a high performance vehicle because of my extractors
you can get away with a catback with 2 mufflers from pretty much any police but when you have bleedingly obvious mods like extractors with no heatshield or wacky aluminium intakes and exposed pods its harder to get away with them
legally you can have absolutely no modifications to enhance a cars performance, you can lose 3 points for having a catback fitted which means if you get caught twice in 1 year, you lose your license. i drive sensibly and dont get pulled over a great deal so ive had a pretty good run so far

ebxr82nv · 12-01-2010, 06:57 PM

the jmm race series extractors are dear as poison but worth the money.
Cant say if they help make more power than others but they dont make any less, where they are worth the cash is in the cylinder scavenging which helps make more torque. If your only looking at their street fighter headers, may aswell get paceys

mik · 12-01-2010, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU1monty

will something like this do? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EF-EL-AU...item518faef070

anyone know anywhere in SE melbourne that does good exhausts and extractors?

also im on my red P's atm and the laws are a bit sketchy on modifying your car, what do u reckon i can get away with?

regarding modifications and p`s, , don`t know the legalities, but i do know, lots of noise and p plates are like a magnet to the boys in blue, pick your mufflers wisely when considering noise output.

The Monty · 12-01-2010, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

Sure, but I bet it wasn't on a standardish engine.
On a stock engine, there will be no gains.

You'd need to be making well over 230kw and spinning well past 6000rpm to see any gains from a larger TB.

The 65mm standard unit is huge for a 4L which is revving like a diesel.

Hey Sox, you think it would be a worthwhile mod for me? I spin over 6k, not near 230kw yet, but with plans to supercharge this year, would it be worth doing N/A and see if there is any gains? I could do a back to back run for people on here as well to show the difference?

Sox · 12-01-2010, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Hey Sox, you think it would be a worthwhile mod for me? I spin over 6k, not near 230kw yet, but with plans to supercharge this year, would it be worth doing N/A and see if there is any gains? I could do a back to back run for people on here as well to show the difference?

Well it would certainly have more of a chance making an improvement on an engine like yours which is in a much higher state of tune than stock.
Personally I still think the improvements would be slight, but if you can get one cheap enough or borrow one, it's probably worth the effort.
I think you'd want more than 5kw improvement for it to be worthwhile if it's a few $$.

I think the reason why people make wild claims about larger throttle bodies on fairly stockish engines is because it sharpens throttle response. Not because it flows better or any reason that you'd think though. The reason is because at any given position of the accelerator pedal, the throttle plate is open the same amount, however because the body is larger it will be flowing more at the same position.
Basically for both TB's being at say 20% plate opening, the larger one will be flowing say 20% more. This gives the impression that the engine is more responsive when in reality it's just the the air flow is greater at the same pedal position.

When it comes the maximum throttle, the difference will have vanished because the engine will only require what it requires. Which is less than a 65mm TB.

Usually what you end up with is a car that's more difficult to drive smooth because the throttle is too snappy. Fuel economy is also usually worse.
Unless of course it has a progressive linkage.

Clear as mud?

ST · 12-01-2010, 10:21 PM

Has anybody had a full JMM exhaust fitted to their VCT? Looks like there aren't many options around with IRS.

Just wondering if the gains are good and if it sounds decent? I wouldn't bother if it makes the XR sound like crap for a couple of extra KW's. Open to any other suggestions or options, definitely want something that sounds good and price isn't a concern.

nfury8 · 12-01-2010, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU1monty

will something like this do? http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FORD-EF-EL-AU...item518faef070

anyone know anywhere in SE melbourne that does good exhausts and extractors?

also im on my red P's atm and the laws are a bit sketchy on modifying your car, what do u reckon i can get away with?

Just had some work done on my BA XR8 ute at Unique Exhausts 72 Barry Street Bayswater 97629930. Awesome bloke, professional/neat custom work.

frd906 · 12-01-2010, 11:32 PM

i have no problems with the coppers up here in brisbane, i have a loud exhuast with one straight through muffler and its loud, but never have been hassled or pulled over, for it

Stattic · 12-01-2010, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

Well it would certainly have more of a chance making an improvement on an engine like yours which is in a much higher state of tune than stock.
Personally I still think the improvements would be slight, but if you can get one cheap enough or borrow one, it's probably worth the effort.
I think you'd want more than 5kw improvement for it to be worthwhile if it's a few $$.

I think the reason why people make wild claims about larger throttle bodies on fairly stockish engines is because it sharpens throttle response. Not because it flows better or any reason that you'd think though. The reason is because at any given position of the accelerator pedal, the throttle plate is open the same amount, however because the body is larger it will be flowing more at the same position.
Basically for both TB's being at say 20% plate opening, the larger one will be flowing say 20% more. This gives the impression that the engine is more responsive when in reality it's just the the air flow is greater at the same pedal position.

When it comes the maximum throttle, the difference will have vanished because the engine will only require what it requires. Which is less than a 65mm TB.

Usually what you end up with is a car that's more difficult to drive smooth because the throttle is too snappy. Fuel economy is also usually worse.
Unless of course it has a progressive linkage.

Clear as mud?

hey sox, how is it you know everything? no, seriously lol everytime someone has a question you have an answer thats explained logically and makes perfect sense
am i right in saying with some of the more heavily modified NAs theyd probably get a few kw in the top end? its something im willing to try if its not gona cost a fortune, what is the 68mm tb worth?

The Monty · 13-01-2010, 08:21 AM

You can get them for late $200's off Ebay. I got one for $40 off Blackers but it was S1, and mines S3, so I putit on my mums car, lol.

Stattic · 13-01-2010, 10:33 AM

Back to back dynomite runs or do you think it'd need abit more tuning to show any benefit?

The Monty · 13-01-2010, 11:41 AM

I would do a run first, a run with it on, and then a run with it tuned. 3 runs. Could take me a few months to get up the $$$'s first though, but I will do it.

Sox · 13-01-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stattic

hey sox, how is it you know everything? no, seriously lol everytime someone has a question you have an answer thats explained logically and makes perfect sense

LOL, thanks for the compliment, but I wish I did know it all, there's plenty of guys around that know stacks more than me.
I guess though the 2 things where I learnt the most was crewing for a drag car for over 5 years. I practically hand built the car and then maintained it.

I probably learnt a bit from one of the best engine rebuilding shops in OZ too.

Other than that, I just bluff my way through things.

Quote:

am i right in saying with some of the more heavily modified NAs theyd probably get a few kw in the top end?

For sure, but as I mentioned, I'd suspect you'd need to be making more than 230kw or 180rwkw for a bigger TB to make any big difference.

65mm is a pretty hefty size for a 4L which doesn't rev.

Stattic · 14-01-2010, 07:07 PM

Well come tax time this year I'm probably gonna get the heads done so I will get it tuned then see if there is more to be made from a bigger TB. For 200 plus dyno time I'm happy for 2 or 3rwkw I'm not expecting 10rwkw like that e series guy