HOLDEN Sales Fall Because of SIDI.. - Page 2

mik · 18-01-2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

The worst thing you can do is disappoint your customers.
SIDI 3.6 should have been the base engine and developing a supercharged V6 high on the proirity list.

Bwhahahahahah good one., ....must be seeing things , i thought i saw sidi stamped on the side of that trike....hmmm the old eyes.

Watto_Cobra · 19-01-2010, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

I get the impression that the Omega is the Commodore's most popular model, while the XT is hardly the Falcon's most popular...I see a hell of a lot more XRs and G-Series...

It's good. People spending more money...which needless to say, is exactly what you were implying

Have to agree. I see more Omegas by far than any other VE variant.

Finally saw an E2 Maloo on the road yesterday. Spotted from 500m because of the DRLs. Very overdone.

BA/BF seeing XTs was the norm and you sat up when you saw an XR or Fairmont or FPV.

FG, I hardly see any XTs, and when I do, they have a company signage on them or Gov plates. G-series and XRs are the norm.

JTFG · 19-01-2010, 10:00 AM

Yep all I see are G Series and Xr's, it also gives Ford a better image on the road by seeing the non base models/up market versions on the road.

4Vman · 19-01-2010, 10:05 AM

While the SIDI and AFM have both bombed in the real world i'm also concerned about how the i4T Falcon will perform in the real world economy wise too.....

If Ford make unrealistic fuel economy claims and it bombs too it will and should cop its share of criticism...

**Polyal** · 19-01-2010, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

While the SIDI and AFM have both bombed in the real world i'm also concerned about how the i4T Falcon will perform in the real world economy wise too.....

If Ford make unrealistic fuel economy claims and it bombs too it will and should cop its share of criticism...

I dont think they have claimed anything have they? They need to be careful but I think it will surprise a few, if it has low down torque then it should be ok, because once cruising in theory it will use less.

If Ford can get their act together with the new LPG car for the fleets then Holdens in trouble.

Swordsman88 · 19-01-2010, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

While the SIDI and AFM have both bombed in the real world i'm also concerned about how the i4T Falcon will perform in the real world economy wise too.....

If Ford make unrealistic fuel economy claims and it bombs too it will and should cop its share of criticism...

That is always a risk Norm. But i think the first thing to establish is whether the engine is likely to work just based on ADR alone. The 9.3L/100km of the 3.0 SIDI is approx 6% more 'fuel efficient' then the 3.6 version. Ford has claimed, and based on early figures for the same engine in a european people mover (risky i know but its all we got) the I4t should burn about 15-20% less based on ADR. Big difference right there. Holden should have put the 3.6 SIDI in the top spec cars years ago (which was available) and then made a 'econo tune' 3.6 HO as the base engine. I reckon if you got the old HO 3.6, tuned it to make a bit less torque (so 330nm) and power (180kw...) and put the same 6sp and the same low rolling resistance tyres it would get a similar ADR as the 3.0 SIDI....with alot less development cost and probably lower real world fuel burn. Ford has been much much better at hitting its ADR figures real world....or at least getting alot closer to them, when driven on a similar cycle. Holden has not even got close.......

I continue to have confidence in the EB tech for is using....though until it is driven on the road its hard to say for sure....

4Vman · 19-01-2010, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

That is always a risk Norm. But i think the first thing to establish is whether the engine is likely to work just based on ADR alone. The 9.3L/100km of the 3.0 SIDI is approx 6% more 'fuel efficient' then the 3.6 version. Ford has claimed, and based on early figures for the same engine in a european people mover (risky i know but its all we got) the I4t should burn about 15-20% less based on ADR. Big difference right there. Holden should have put the 3.6 SIDI in the top spec cars years ago (which was available) and then made a 'econo tune' 3.6 HO as the base engine. I reckon if you got the old HO 3.6, tuned it to make a bit less torque (so 330nm) and power (180kw...) and put the same 6sp and the same low rolling resistance tyres it would get a similar ADR as the 3.0 SIDI....with alot less development cost and probably lower real world fuel burn. Ford has been much much better at hitting its ADR figures real world....or at least getting alot closer to them, when driven on a similar cycle. Holden has not even got close.......

I continue to have confidence in the EB tech for is using....though until it is driven on the road its hard to say for sure....

Yes.. while its early days, and Ford have made no claims yet the one thing iv'e learn't is the ADR test only seems accurate to real world on some vehicles.... so i have little faith in ADR v Real world till there's practical feedback.

Chopped · 19-01-2010, 10:56 AM

I also believe the E2 HSVs must be a fail as well. I only see them at the dealers.

In Holdens favour, the 3.0ltr fail motor would have to be cheaper to manufacture than the proposed turbo 4 from Ford. But you still need to actually sell them !.

4Vman · 19-01-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

I also believe the E2 HSVs must be a fail as well. I only see them at the dealers.

In Holdens favour, the 3.0ltr fail motor would have to be cheaper to manufacture than the proposed turbo 4 from Ford. But you still need to actually sell them !.

E2 has been a big success, they've sold like hot cakes.

Chopped · 19-01-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

E2 has been a big success, they've sold like hot cakes.

Where are they ? I've seen 1 on the road.

4Vman · 19-01-2010, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopped

Where are they ? I've seen 1 on the road.

What, HSV are going disperse 4000 cars in a few months? ive seen SFA FG's too.. doesnt mean they arent selling.
It takes 12 months for these limited run cars to get out there in any kind of noticeable numbers...

Chopped · 19-01-2010, 12:00 PM

Yes it is probably just perception.

vztrt · 19-01-2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

While the SIDI and AFM have both bombed in the real world i'm also concerned about how the i4T Falcon will perform in the real world economy wise too.....

If Ford make unrealistic fuel economy claims and it bombs too it will and should cop its share of criticism...

It will get criticised more then the SIDI will, the Ford badge will make sure of that. But Ford have been very good of late at having cars be close to their ADR levels. But time will tell.

eb2fairmont · 19-01-2010, 06:55 PM

The sidi fails because of 290 Nm. 320 NM EB motor should be a lot better in this regard, also with less frictional losses.

US kills Falcon · 19-01-2010, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

The sidi fails because of 290 Nm.

That is the root cause of the problem. An FG XT will eat it even with just the 5-speed auto.

**TUF_302** · 19-01-2010, 07:14 PM

Its great to see them fall so far, and us move up nicely!, wont be long till Falcon outsells commy again!

:

jpd80 · 19-01-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

The sidi fails because of 290 Nm. 320 NM EB motor should be a lot better in this regard, also with less frictional losses.

At 2000 rpm, that 3.0 V6 will have much less torque than 290 nm, more like 220nm.
So that 100 nm deficit to the Ecoboost I-4 Falcon will feel like a huge gulf to anyone looking at the 3.0 SIDI.

XR6_190 · 19-01-2010, 07:30 PM

No surprise there, I mean who wants a car with a badge that sounds SILY?

Also, have Holden got a hold of Ford's marketing and PR staff? Seriously blaming the sales dip on a lack of a special edition has got to be the worst excuse I've heard in years. I thought that Special editions we're traditionally used for outgoing models, not incoming.

phillyc · 19-01-2010, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_190

I thought that Special editions we're traditionally used for outgoing models, not incoming.

Spot on! Since FG has come out, Falcon resales have been better than Commodore. I think this is why my work doesn't offer Commodores anymore. I think the fleets have predicted that 2nd hand, the demand will not be there for an entry level Omega or Berlina. I reckon the 3.0L SIDI will have suspect resale.

phillyc · 19-01-2010, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TUF_302

Its great to see them fall so far, and us move up nicely!, wont be long till Falcon outsells commy again!

:

Wishful thinking i'm afraid. The FG is very much the better car. But, Ford don't have the spare capacity and it takes alot to convince the average punter to change their way. Though it does appear from my circle that perceptions are changing. The other is that GMHolden aren't that smart and would try to make sure it didn't happen with huge incentives.

Remember too that GMHolden had 20,000 excess VE's on grass this time last year. So, they offered a 'limited edition' car from $28,990 on road to help shift the then current output from adding to the stockpile and offered a $1/litre fuel pricecap to help move the other VE already stockpiled.

Even with all that, the VE Commodore sales were down 13% for the 2009 year.

jpd80 · 19-01-2010, 08:10 PM

Could we ultimately see retail customers steered towards the 3.6 and the 3.0 SIDI relegated to fleet only?
I mean Holden is going to great lengths to extoll 9.3 l/100 km Vs Ford's 9.9 l/100 klm.
Any smart customer will see right through that and want the 3.6 SIDI from Holden at no extra cost.

XR6_190 · 19-01-2010, 08:35 PM

If they're sales are this bad now, how are they going to be when the FG get's an update this year, and the Commodore is still 4 years old.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Any smart customer will see right through that and want the 3.6 SIDI from Holden at no extra cost.

Actually any smart customer (if they exist) would realize that the Holden numbers are poppycock, and would go and buy the Ford.

US kills Falcon · 19-01-2010, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_190

If they're sales are this bad now, how are they going to be when the FG get's an update this year, and the Commodore is still 4 years old.

There won't be any significant FG updates this year. Ford are concentrating most of their efforts on the new Territory.

SSVPom · 19-01-2010, 08:42 PM

I can't comment on the SIDI engines, but my V8 with 'aftermarket' dealer programmed AFM (cylinder shutdown) has returned 630kms on a tank on a country trip, and my usual commute which is 50% freeway / 50% CBD, around 450kms per tank minimum. Which I reckon is pretty good.

I drive reasonably gently most of the time, but of course have a squirt here and there as we all do, so am actually impressed with the economy of the 6.0 engine, as it beats hands down my old AU2 VCT Ghia !

The sales figures do not reflect the introduction of the SIDI engines putting off potential customers, merely the fact the VE has been around a while and is not as fresh as rivals, therefore generating less interest. The new dash and interior which is coming out later this year (MY11) will give it a little lift no doubt !

Bottom line is, if my company gave me the choice of a $40k 6 cyl car ie: Omega/Berlina or XT/G6, the Fords would get my vote any day...

snappy · 19-01-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairmontPom

I can't comment on the SIDI engines, but my V8 with 'aftermarket' dealer programmed AFM (cylinder shutdown) has returned 630kms on a tank on a country trip, and my usual commute which is 50% freeway / 50% CBD, around 450kms per tank minimum. Which I reckon is pretty good.

I drive reasonably gently most of the time, but of course have a squirt here and there as we all do, so am actually impressed with the economy of the 6.0 engine, as it beats hands down my old AU2 VCT Ghia !

The sales figures do not reflect the introduction of the SIDI engines putting off potential customers, merely the fact the VE has been around a while and is not as fresh as rivals, therefore generating less interest. The new dash and interior which is coming out later this year (MY11) will give it a little lift no doubt !

Bottom line is, if my company gave me the choice of a $40k 6 cyl car ie: Omega/Berlina or XT/G6, the Fords would get my vote any day...

Thats not good at all my xr8 get 450ks + towing a trailer everyday (average speed 48kph ) and on my last country trip returned 730ks on the highway and had a few more litres in it when i filled it up . Afm is just a gimmick .

SSVPom · 19-01-2010, 09:01 PM

Bigger tank in the ute though ?

snappy · 19-01-2010, 09:04 PM

Yes but the fuel gauge is not , i never got more then 60lt in it because i fill it when the beeper goes of which i suspect i have an extra 20 lts left.
nine times of of ten i cant get more 55lts and its full . if i ran it dry i wreakon i would of been push 800+ ks

Rapid_Attack · 19-01-2010, 09:35 PM

Fords 4cyl idea in Falcon is bound to be a lemon based on this theory.

Like the Germans say "Sink Habout it" (Think about it).

Windsor220 · 19-01-2010, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_190

If they're sales are this bad now, how are they going to be when the FG get's an update this year, and the Commodore is still 4 years old.
.

Falcon updates havent had an impact on Commodore sales in years

Paxton · 19-01-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Could we ultimately see retail customers steered towards the 3.6 and the 3.0 SIDI relegated to fleet only?
I mean Holden is going to great lengths to extoll 9.3 l/100 km Vs Ford's 9.9 l/100 klm.
Any smart customer will see right through that and want the 3.6 SIDI from Holden at no extra cost.

The way you put it John, it appears that the 3.0 SIDI is the same as the 3.2 CFI that EA came with. Whether Holden follow Ford's lead with the CFi and drop it is another matter.