Webber says what we're all thinking

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

The 3km/h tolerance on speed cameras was probably his main target regarding speed laws. Can Mr Lay honestly tell us having banks of cameras on straight, smooth motorways that haven't seen a fatality not caused by drugs/alcohol/fatigue has more to do with road safety than revenue raising? The recent works on the M1 - from before Burke rd into the city the limit is now 80 km/h. How can they upgrade the road yet lower the speed limit in the areas where there are no roadworks happening?

You can argue that both ways, that the camera's made people slow down therefore no accidents.....

[Scott]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You can argue that both ways, that the camera's made people slow down therefore no accidents.....

But no-one with half a brain and/or no agenda would.

[V3RSAC3]

Send Webber over here to Adelaide to have a chat to Mr Rann =) LOL

[MAD]

Originally Posted by SB076

I have to agree with Mark - we are a nanny state
No longer can we do 100 on a freeway (in Vic heading south from the tunnel on the M1 we have 4 lanes but an 80k limit pretty much all the way to Toorak Rd) Our speed limits are being reduced plus we now have 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, and 110 zones and IMHO this has had no affect on the road toll (I beleive any reduction is as a result of additioanl safety measures being introduced to cars such as ABS, ESC, better crumple zones etc)

Our governments seem intent on bringing in new law after new law (such as hoon laws - which I might add dont worry me - but what is the point? We already had laws that covered reckless driving and inporoper use of motor vehicles) Why dont we simply enforce them?

Now the government is looking at bringing laws in to keep trucks out of the right hand lane - we already have a law that states keep left unless overtaking, if that law is enforced there is no need for an additional law.

We have far too many beuracrats in this country and to justify their existance they keep coming up with rubbish and as such we have become a nanny state.

All Mark has done is say it as it is and offend the beuracrats.

I agree 100% on the vehicle safety standards being the more likely culprit to the reduction in road toll. Where's the stats showing the number of serious injuries caused by road accidents?? not just the deaths.

Also agree 100% on the stupidity of adding new laws when we already have laws that arent enforced. Just like the stupid new suspension modification laws they tried to bring in. Thankfully there was an industry that was going to be hurt by those laws, that's the only reason I reckon it has been put on the back burner to be reviewed. And it wasnt even a body representing car enthusiasts, it was the recreational 4wd'ers that got it held back.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by GTP006

But no-one with half a brain and/or no agenda would.

That's one way to look at it, there's always 2 perspectives, both sides will see their position as correct, both will have equally valid reasons for their position, im just pointing it out....

[Falcon Coupe]

The media may slam Webber but the public agree with him thus far.



Thanks for voting!
Has the Brumby Government made Victoria a "nanny state"?

* Yes 81.64% (627 votes)
* No 18.36% (141 votes)

Total votes: 768

Minister Tim Holding, staunchly defending anti-hoon laws, said: "I don't think that anyone who has lost a loved one because of road trauma would think that Victoria's anti-hoon laws are too harsh."

Tim Holdings comments have litte credibility at a time when he have threads like this:

Victorian toll worst in 5 years

Vic IS tuning into the Nanny state, the current laws only punish the average Joe who goes a couple of klm over the limit, it does nothing to stop people slamming into objects at high speed.

Unless driver attitude can be changed the road toll will continue.

[RedHotGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You can argue that both ways, that the camera's made people slow down therefore no accidents.....

True...

Also, if I point the pen in my hand into the sky, it stops UFO's from landing nearby...

I have 100% proof that it works... do you see any UFO's around here??

[Scott]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's one way to look at it, there's always 2 perspectives, both sides will see their position as correct, im just pointing it out....

Of course, just like a guy who beats his wife will be able to fully justify why he should in his own mind. He could likely find a group of similarly minded people and all of a sudden he has established what he thinks is a majority... because that is ALL he sees and hears.

Unfortunately, the majority are a voiceless, aimless, neutered mob in this country and through exploitation of this very quandry, minority do-gooders and tax driven savages get to rule the roost however they see fit.

There must be someone with the right inclination, power and persuasion to start to push back in an effective manner. When the push comes, and it will, this country will not know what to do with itself. Fear take hold and our "weak" approach will see us clambering for a return to the good old days when the government managed our breakfasts.

If Australia wants to change (and I believe it does), then Australia needs to have a voice and use it.

Please welcome Mr Mark Webber to the stage...

(but ffs Mark, find a better way to start a fight!!)

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

Unless driver attitude can be changed the road toll will continue.

Never a truer word spoken...

Originally Posted by GTP006

If Australia wants to change (and I believe it does), then Australia needs to have a voice and use it.

Please welcome Mr Mark Webber to the stage...

(but ffs Mark, find a better way to start a fight!!)

true as well... right idea, just poorly executed and badly timed...

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

You can argue that both ways, that the camera's made people slow down therefore no accidents.....

Or the number of accidents was minimal before speed cameras were used and has made no difference besides the revenue in government coffers. Certainly not a black spot considering the volume of traffic and few accidents.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

It seems accountability has gone out the window of late, case and point, the police being blamed for the accident of a stolen car. Knee-jerk reaction from the party involed prompts the government steps in, saying that they will 'fix' things, in the hope it will eleviate any public scrutiny, however in doing so, only pave the way for more idiotic claims from people not wanting to be accountable for their actions.

In the hope this makes it to page 3 I will not discuss said incident, I am only illustrating how these cowards are slowly eroding everyone elses right to autonomy.

[Jason[98.EL]]

just listened to bay fm news and damm thy are attempting to rip webber a new one

The comment about he would have more right to say something if he had won the GP what a crock

They are calling him callus because there was a fatal accident here in geelong that was speed reated

As others have said why don't the authorities use these sort of guys to help get the message across

Jason

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by cs123

Society gets the government it deserves. ie We are all to blame for the nanny state we live in.

It is up to us to voice our displeasure at what is happening and follow that up at the ballot box

To a point you are pretty correct there.

But, as I have 'said' in another thread; Gummints take easy routes by throwing legislation at problems expecting results because it's easy, instant (seemingly), makes the look like they are doing something in the community & stakeholders eyes and generates revenue - albeit voluntary (but that's another argument).

Webber (and others on here), are correct to a point; there is such a thing as over governance and shiny bums will always go too far telling you what to do unless you let them know they need to rethink or that something is excessive.

Don't get me wrong: I firmly believe that society needs order, policing and governance to maintain civility and cohesion, but humans are fallible.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Jason[98.EL]

As others have said why don't the authorities use these sort of guys to help get the message across

Jason

They probably would if they didn't stick their feet in their mouths first!!!

[kyro_02]

I don't think webber was commenting on hamilton's action alone, but more so the regulations in general, speed limits are a joke, they decrease, yet cars are getting more safe, roads are getting re-surfaced, and safety barriers (like you see on the ringroad) yet, speed limits have gone lower.

Plenty road, Mill park, it use to be 80km, but right (months)before the deaths of 4 people + another the other weekend, it was dropped to 70kmh.

I see car deaths because someone broke the law, but the government use it to spark their agenda, using it against us, yet most of the reasons of bad accidents resulting in death are??? because people BROKE the law..(in saying that, there's always going to be people breaking the law, and dying on the roads)

I'm sure Mr Lay's stint with a speed camera undermined the governemnt lol....pfft

[SB076]

Think Mark probably feels remorse about hitting Hamilton and has tried to defend him and his actions (plus maybe air some frustrations) Mark commented on what a lot of people (reading the comments here) already knew (Victoria is becoming or has become a Nanny state)

Unfortunately Marks comments go against what the government has been drilling into us for all these years. Therefore the governemnts PR team has gone into overdrive in an attempt to prove Marks comments are irresponsible.

Sad thing is somewhere in parliment there are probably 50 bearucrats trying to pass a law on how to prevent people from having a personal opinion.

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They probably would if they didn't stick their feet in their mouths first!!!

True very true but just imagine how much more people would listen if if these guys put there effort into the message and not into a war of words that this sort of thing allways entice

Jason

[snappy]

I think mark webber is absolutely correct . Laws a put in place to protect people but i feel the current laws are here to control us .
From the hoons laws - necessary in some aspects but its kind of a blanket law the love to throw over every thing.
Remember the truck driver that got his lively hood towed away because he did not slow down after the road workers had gone home .
Police now have the right to a random search for weapons
speed camera's are out of control . They make me uncorfortable when driving now i feel nervous all the time expecially in melbourne there often new surrounds and not what i used to but i have to concentrate on making sure i dont do 63 instead of pedestrian ,trams , merging cars and alike.

Alcopops laws , New achocol lincense taxes , smoking laws ,new mobile phone laws, internet filtering, New home laws , camping laws , fishing laws, boat laws , shooting laws to many to mention that has come in in the last 5 years or so
An speaking for myself they have not made my life any better . They have made my life more stressful taken my freedoms in order to protect me

I have not problem at admitting yes we are living in a nanny state and it is the very reason i think about moving out of it all the time.

[Ghiadude]

The people who break laws do so despite the fact that they know that the law is designed to protect them. I cant see any point in changeing the laws to stop these people IT WONT WORK the proof of this is that the laws are now the most stringent they have EVER BEEN and yet people are dying. If the law was that you have to drive to the conditions and the police were then given discretion to dish out the appropriate punishment then we would see people take a smarter approach to driving. We dont have enough police, driver education or the right laws....its a perfect storm and all the while state governments are using the blood of hoons to justify their monetary windfall. Mark Webber may not have used the right words - but he sends the right message. the laws are flawed and need to be changed.

[gtxb67]

it seems to me that it is a case of another celebrity that lives a sheltered and priviledged lifestyle opening their mouth because they think they are more important than the average joe. not much different to the black face outrage, award recipients complaining about weapons of mass destruction etc. if they have a social conscience they should do it in the right channels, not try to get cheap support from a mob mentality

and i would guess that most of the country may not agree with him. many women and people with kids/grandkids do not think they are too far. i have had many discussions with friends putting down speed cameras and they do not have a problem with them. the fact i pass most people when driving and do not get tickets may attest to this. most people are happy to sit on or under the limit and have done so since driving began

[flappist]

The concept of driver attitude......

While it the most important rule of the road is not to exceed a magic number on a sign we will continue to have excessive road deaths.

In a 100 zone 99 is always safe 101 is always dangerous and looking at your speedo is FAR more important than looking in your rear view mirrors or side windows or on the footpaths ahead.

The media led indoctrination of drivers with unworkable utopian dogma is making driving more and more dangerous and the REALLY scary thing is they they have too much to lose by changing it.

There is NO WAY that the incumbent governments will admit they are wrong and the only way to fix this is to replace the various governments.

The problem with this is that for many on here this would be like buying a commodore even just ONCE to give Ford a fright and make them take notice so they build better cars.
For many it does not matter how bad a Falcon is IT WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN A COMMODORE

So basicly we are stuffed.....

[MAD]

I've got the perfect law to the gov to bring in.... make it illegal to die on our roads then they can follow up with the relatives for payment. [/sarcasm]

It will do as much good as any other law they've brought in lately.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

The concept of driver attitude......

While it the most important rule of the road is not to exceed a magic number on a sign we will continue to have excessive road deaths.

In a 100 zone 99 is always safe 101 is always dangerous and looking at your speedo is FAR more important than looking in your rear view mirrors or side windows or on the footpaths ahead.

The media led indoctrination of drivers with unworkable utopian dogma is making driving more and more dangerous and the REALLY scary thing is they they have too much to lose by changing it.

There is NO WAY that the incumbent governments will admit they are wrong and the only way to fix this is to replace the various governments.

The problem with this is that for many on here this would be like buying a commodore even just ONCE to give Ford a fright and make them take notice so they build better cars.
For many it does not matter how bad a Falcon is IT WILL ALWAYS BE BETTER THAN A COMMODORE

So basicly we are stuffed.....

Very true, however this "give them a fright" idea backfired badly here in Victoria about a decade ago...
After the election you couldn't find anyone game enough to admit they did it because they ended up with a change of Govt that most people didnt really want...... Now look at the mess we've got, it was like the introduction of the cane toad!

By the way, i've bought 2 Mazda's recently because Ford didn't sell a vehicle that fitted our needs or met our standards!

Hows the Datsun going!!??!!

[Brent]

Originally Posted by snappy

I think mark webber is absolutely correct . Laws a put in place to protect people but i feel the current laws are here to control us .
From the hoons laws - necessary in some aspects but its kind of a blanket law the love to throw over every thing.
Remember the truck driver that got his lively hood towed away because he did not slow down after the road workers had gone home .
Police now have the right to a random search for weapons
speed camera's are out of control . They make me uncorfortable when driving now i feel nervous all the time expecially in melbourne there often new surrounds and not what i used to but i have to concentrate on making sure i dont do 63 instead of pedestrian ,trams , merging cars and alike.

Alcopops laws , New achocol lincense taxes , smoking laws ,new mobile phone laws, internet filtering, New home laws , camping laws , fishing laws, boat laws , shooting laws to many to mention that has come in in the last 5 years or so
An speaking for myself they have not made my life any better . They have made my life more stressful taken my freedoms in order to protect me

I have not problem at admitting yes we are living in a nanny state and it is the very reason i think about moving out of it all the time.

A good post there. Not wanting to put words into Webber's mouth, but I think its this general society-wide infatuation with laws and regulations that he was referring to. Some stats on the amount of new laws and regulations introduced over the last 10 years would be good to see.

If anything, Webber being overseas most of the time probably gives some additional perspective. He sees the way other countries do things, and then would see the way things have progressed here. When you live in a place, it can be difficult to appreciate the slow change over time. Bit like the lobster in the pot analogy.....if you put a lobster into boiling water it will attempt to jump out, but put it in cool water and slowly heat it, the lobster will not notice the slow change to its environment and will end up dead, but without all the fuss. OK, not a perfect example, but I'm sure we get the gist of it.

Personally, the stifling of debate for anyone with an alternate view to the establishment is also maddening. Whatever you argue against, it seems that you're being "insensitive" to somebody. If you argue against some speed limits, then you're insensitive to accident victims. If you offer an alternative view on gun laws, you're insensitive to firearm crime victims. The list goes on, and its a convenient copout to limit debate, merely by playing the emotion card.

As for Webber being belted on daytime radio, well geez, I wouldn't lose much sleep over that. Daytime/talkback radio is the refuge of many people who have too much spare time on their hands, with little to worry about other than what bandwagon to jump onto next. I don't think its a genuinely accurate cross-section of society.

Brent.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Very true, however this "give them a fright" idea backfired badly here in Victoria about a decade ago...
After the election you couldn't find anyone game enough to admit they did it because they ended up with a change of Govt that most people didnt really want...... Now look at the mess we've got, it was like the introduction of the cane toad!

By the way, i've bought 2 Mazda's recently because Ford didn't sell a vehicle that fitted our needs or met our standards!

Hows the Datsun going!!??!!

So what you are saying is that before buying your cars you actually concider what is available and choose on suitability at the time not just buy what you have always bought because it must be the best otherwise you would not have bought it.....

As far as the datto, I tend to not talk about it much on here as someone may ask how it is compared to my previous cars as far as warranty, reliability, performance etc. and the answer...........

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by flappist

The concept of driver attitude......

The most important rule of the road is not to exceed a magic number on a sign, we will continue to have excessive road deaths.

In a 100 zone 99 is always safe 101 is always dangerous and looking at your speedo is FAR more important than looking in your rear view mirrors or side windows or on the footpaths ahead.


So basicly we are stuffed.....

Yes, this I have always agreed and is the part that they (g'ment) just loose me on this whole thing. Especially when you hear the 'Drop 5' adds ...... just cringe worthy as they are so wrong. If magic numbers worked, the roads would be safe for everyone. Being stuffed is an understatement.

This I would like to beleive is what Mark W was refereing too ...... the over emphasis on the speed limit, over endulgence on speed cameras and over enthusiam of the g'ment in implementing these draconian laws



| [/url] |

[trippytaka]

I agree totally with Webber.

[GTpilot]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Yes, this I have always agreed and is the part that they (g'ment) just loose me on this whole thing. Especially when you hear the 'Drop 5' adds ...... just cringe worthy as they are so wrong. If magic numbers worked, the roads would be safe for everyone. Being stuffed is an understatement.

This I would like to beleive is what Mark W was refereing too ...... the over emphasis on the speed limit, over endulgence on speed cameras and over enthusiam of the g'ment in implementing these draconian laws

Those drop 5 ads drive me nuts. Take the current one they are showing with the white EL (I think it is). woman walks out and gets hit. "oh, because we coppers know everything, WE know the guy was doing 65". now lets look at it another way....... do 60 and she'll just get a bruise.

Helloo, You dumbass cop. heres 3 scenarios for ya to ponder.......
1)If we were doing 60, chances are the car would not have even been close enough, the woman would have already crossed the road before the car was upon her.
2) Perhaps even do 70, you would be long past and gone when she crossed.

3) (This is my fav..) LEARN TO LOOK BEFORE CROSSING THE ROAD!!!!
Then it does not matter what speed the car is doing. :

I agree with Webber, it is just a pity he will now be out of the country and wont have the chance to explain his comments. but perhaps 85% of the rest of Australia's population should do it for him. What ever happened to people having to take responsibility for their OWN ACTIONS.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by GTpilot

Those drop 5 ads drive me nuts. Take the current one they are showing with the white EL (I think it is). woman walks out and gets hit. "oh, because we coppers know everything, WE know the guy was doing 65". now lets look at it another way....... do 60 and she'll just get a bruise.

Helloo, You dumbass cop. heres 3 scenarios for ya to ponder.......
1)If we were doing 60, chances are the car would not have even been close enough, the woman would have already crossed the road before the car was upon her.
2) Perhaps even do 70, you would be long past and gone when she crossed.

3) (This is my fav..) LEARN TO LOOK BEFORE CROSSING THE ROAD!!!!
Then it does not matter what speed the car is doing. :

I agree with Webber, it is just a pity he will now be out of the country and wont have the chance to explain his comments. but perhaps 85% of the rest of Australia's population should do it for him. What ever happened to people having to take responsibility for their OWN ACTIONS.

And speaking of dumbass ads... How 'bout the new **************** ones?? (See link)
Isn't this just getting down in the gutter with the bogans that they're targeting?
I'm far from a prude, but are we really correct in throwing what little respect we still have out the window?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...29/2858955.htm

[greenfoam]

I can see where Webber is coming from, anytime you spend time in another country and come back here you think.... is this one big jail?. It's _very_ noticeable for people that have grown up in other parts of the world. I actually have a new found respect for Mark Webber for saying something about it, the 50%? of us that feel the same have no opportunity to stick it to those in charge so we need someone with a voice to do it