Buyer Beware ! Odometer Fraud - Territory

[divine_afg]

Hi


Well like fellow member who earlier posted thread regarding odometer fraud i nearly purchased this too good to be true Territory on car sales.

Link for car: Car sales - territory for sale

car net auction sydney
http://www.carnetauctions.com.au/cp_...CSS&MTA=100266

the story:

well lucky i didnt buy it. thought i do my homework and it payed off. i was quite sus from the start still i rang up to speak to lili - well lili wasnt avail so assuming i spoke to lili husband sam.
i asked for reason for sale " i moved to melb recently bought a business need a van"
Ringgggg the add says growing family need 7 seater. again assuming by van i thought he might mean 7seater people mover.
sam had middle eastern accent (no offence,racism or prejudice or generalisation meant -- cousin moved from sydney so i have heard many stories. cant fight the voice in my head)
My best mate who happen to be panel beater and mechanic said will go over the car thorougly and see if it is what the guy claims - no accident history and original log books. mates mech at ford dealer so we where gona plug it to see if it gave any info.

i arrange for the car to be brought to my friends shop, he agreed then again ( the little voice in my head reminded my of earlier thread here for frauds)
i typed the rego on google and i couldnt believe what i was seeing.

now im reallly cut - absolutly disgusted. I called him and cancel our arrangment with an excuse to see what the best course of action is from here.
for laughs with mates i said - i will offer him 11k for the car and tell him the reason, if he doesnt agree his car. then i will report him. we laughed and rejected my narrow minded idea as spare of the moment thing (blackmail no way)

What are the consequences for someone getting caugt ?

Nowfor serious stuff what do i do. im deffinitly going to report him and probs play prank call for laughs aswell hehe.
i dont want poor guy/girl ending with this car its just not fair. had i bought it and this whole thing went unnoticed i would have been really p off as i'm buying this for my oldman.

thats all folks !

cheers
H

[GK]

Good pickup, glad you didn't buy it.

GK

[barra265t]

Can a Territory with 186,000km (that cars original mileage) be bought for $11K?

[Silversurfer]

dob him in to ACA, should be good TV

[Sprint XR8]

Are you sure it's not just a typo error in his ad and the odo in the vehicle is still on 186000km? If he did a speedo swap out of a wreck its unlikely he'd find one exactly 100000km less.

[fg_nitro]

So this is the 2nd car that's been on the forums within a month of someone replacing the cluster.

Under the Motor Car Traders Act Victoria 1986.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/...986194/s38.html

Motor Car Traders Act 1986 - SECT 38
Odometer tampering

38. Odometer tampering



(1) A person must not-

(a) tamper with any instrument or device in a motor car for the recording
of distance travelled by a motor car; or

(b) install in substitution for an instrument or device in a motor car for
recording the distance travelled by the motor car another instrument
or device for recording the distance travelled by the motor car.

Penalty: In the case of a natural person-240 penalty units or imprisonment for
2 years or both. In the case of a body corporate-1000 penalty units.

(2) If it is proved that any instrument or device in a motor car for recording
the distance travelled by the motor car has been tampered with or substituted
whilst the motor car has been on the premises of a motor car trader or in the
possession, custody or control of a motor car trader, the tampering or
substitution shall be deemed to have been done by or on behalf of the motor
car trader.

(3) It is a defence to a prosecution under subsection (1) for the person
charged to prove that the tampering or substitution was not done with intent
to deceive by or on behalf of the person charged.

(4) A person must not, in the course of selling or exchanging a motor car,
falsely represent the accuracy of an odometer reading of the car.

Penalty: In the case of a natural person, 100 penalty units. In the case of a
body corporate, 500 penalty units.


So can anyone elaborate what the penalty is for a person rather than a company or someone acting on behalf of a company? A part from fraud?

[sk8xr8]

Well currently the penalty unit value is $116.82 from memory.

[sgt_doofey]

Ring the police. Report it to them.
Did you at any stage confirm the number of kms on the odometer with the seller? Could it be just a typo?

[naddis01]

I say typo made on purpose to get interest in the car. I bet when it is inspected it will show the original km.

I would say call him back and ask how many km it has before taking it any further.

[Jim Goose]

What was the odometer reading when you saw it?
186000 or 86000?

How do we know who ever placed the add didnt make a typo? (In either adds)

[OLDFORDNUT]

what about cars with stuffed speedos (which is very common) i just get another from wreckers and have done so on at least 3 occasions in last 10 years only one was higher than original two were lower,is that illegal?

[Dodge]

ask for log books then call the service center first.

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by OLDFORDNUT

what about cars with stuffed speedos (which is very common) i just get another from wreckers and have done so on at least 3 occasions in last 10 years only one was higher than original two were lower,is that illegal?

From what I understand, it isn't illegal, provided you BE UP FRONT AND HONEST and tell the buyer straight out when selling the vehicle. And by up front, I mean you must state it to the buyer whether they ask "is this genuine?" or not.

[divine_afg]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

Are you sure it's not just a typo error in his ad and the odo in the vehicle is still on 186000km? If he did a speedo swap out of a wreck its unlikely he'd find one exactly 100000km less.

100% positive. i called him and confirmed the k's with him. he said he has service books aswell

Me: How many Ks the car done?
Sam: "86thousand"

i'm will call him the next half hr.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

100% positive. i called him and confirmed the k's with him. he said he has service books aswell

Me: How many Ks the car done?
Sam: "86thousand"

i'm will call him the next half hr.

is he not just playing dumb and pretending the car has done less k's. if so there is no fraud, because when you get there you will see the truth

[JimNiki]

I reckon this is just a drop in the ocean ...
for every one we discover, there's 100 we don't!

owner onus!

if it looks too good to be true, it probably is...
buy from an old couple ...most don't lie!

[flappist]

So you have one entry on the internet at 186,000 and another at 86,000.

You rang him and asked what it was and he said 86,000 and he had the service logs so you immediately are absolutely sure he is lying and trying to rip you off because.....

You read about stuff on the internet and you saw something on the internet that has no corroborating evidence whatsoever.

This completely naive and paranoid attitude is the main reason why we are stuck with so many stupid restrictions and laws.

How about INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, remember that adage...

It is a Ford vehicle. If it has over 100,000km it will have had a 90,000km factory service while still in warranty. Get the VIN and check with Ford.

Also if he has the service history, check the dates and check with the servicing companies. They will not commit fraud that will cost them all their licenses just to help some idiot scam a few thousand dollars.

As far as your prank call idea. How would you feel if someone sent him a link to this thread in which you have defamed him and he decided to do something about it?

Wouldn't be funny then would it.......

[divine_afg]

ok so i called him again
pretending im someone else ofcourse.

first call:
asked the usuall stuff how many ks, service history, condition etc etc
told him i'll call back.

second time.
me: hi mate i looked up some details about the car, is it the original ks
sam: yes
me: well looks like the car was in auction with about 186thousand ks
sam: mate i dont know its my cousins car (typical reply i already pridicted this)
he is overseas at the moment i have to call him and ask him, i dont know.
will get back to you. (how i called from private number)
me: mate i think the car ks been tempered with. if you serious about selling the car we can negotiate.
sam: mate i seriously dont know whats happening with the car give me a couple of days and we can talk.
me: ok mate i will call you back in couple of days.

now seriously dont believe him 1% coz the story has totally changed from when i first spoke to him.

lets see what happens in couple of days. hope no one buys it.

cheers
h

[divine_afg]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you have one entry on the internet at 186,000 and another at 86,000.

You rang him and asked what it was and he said 86,000 and he had the service logs so you immediately are absolutely sure he is lying and trying to rip you off because.....

You read about stuff on the internet and you saw something on the internet that has no corroborating evidence whatsoever.

This completely naive and paranoid attitude is the main reason why we are stuck with so many stupid restrictions and laws.

How about INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, remember that adage...

It is a Ford vehicle. If it has over 100,000km it will have had a 90,000km factory service while still in warranty. Get the VIN and check with Ford.

Also if he has the service history, check the dates and check with the servicing companies. They will not commit fraud that will cost them all their licenses just to help some idiot scam a few thousand dollars.

As far as your prank call idea. How would you feel if someone sent him a link to this thread in which you have defamed him and he decided to do something about it?

Wouldn't be funny then would it.......

defame him ! i dont think this goes in that catagory. i am no law expert but i sure now the basics.

i have called and checked the auction firm in sydney. im not righting any fiction story here. therefore this isnt some naive reaction.

i always tend to do my homework and read before i sign.

i started this thread as an informative piece and appreciate your point on broader perspective however i think your just dismissing me as someone taking p i s s and i am not. surely you would understand when you have been there done that.

i also dont appreciate being blamed for nany laws. its not because of my naive and paranoid attitude but because of ppl like sam we have these laws and i say bring them on.

he is guilty and i have done my homework.

[divine_afg]

if you havent borthered checking the links

in auction site the ks are 185761 and carsales 86000

[Dave R]

Definitely strange that it's missing exactly 100,000km. You should ring him up and ask him to send you a photo of the cluster reading 86,000km - because a photo of the odo is conveniently absent from the carsales advertisement. It might be a case of someone going down there to inspect, then finding it has 186xxx and the seller's reaction being "Ohhh I didn't see the "1", my apologies can we make a deal?".

Very good pickup nonetheless.

[divine_afg]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Definitely strange that it's missing exactly 100,000km. You should ring him up and ask him to send you a photo of the cluster reading 86,000km - because a photo of the odo is conveniently absent from the carsales advertisement. It might be a case of someone going down there to inspect, then finding it has 186xxx and the seller's reaction being "Ohhh I didn't see the "1", my apologies can we make a deal?".

Very good pickup nonetheless.

your right but why make up the cousin story and tell me to wait 2 days.
personal thats enough evidence. if he had made genuine mistake he would have just said it.
when i mentioned the ks his tone of voice changed.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

he is guilty and i have done my homework.

i do not think anyone is suggesting he is not guilty - the question is guilty of what
ignorance
lieing
fraud

if you have not seen the speedo in person or at least a pic of it on 86,000 then he is not guilty of fraud
if the speedo is 185761, then he is guilty of lieing
and he may have just rounded up the figures to 86,000 either by mistake meaning 186,000 or by lieing about it - the slight difference in numbers does not necessarily mean much at all

[Kryton]

If you have so called evidence, why have you not yet called the Police so they can go and check it out for themselves.
I dont know what your going to prove by trying to chase this up yourself.
At the end of the day, if you arent going to let the Police sort it out, then theres no point continuing.
Even if he has committed fraud, that still doesnt give you any legal right to harrass him, prank call him or defame him in any way shape or form.
Go about this the wrong way and you might find yourself on the wrong side of the law as well.

Its been 14 hours since you discovered this, why have you not yet contacted the Police about it?
It isnt up to you to be certain it has less KM than it previously did, that is up to the Police to prove that.
By not doing anything about it, thats just as bad as what he is doing.
What if someone else has already bought and paid for the car in the 14 hours that you did nothing about it.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

defame him ! i dont think this goes in that catagory. i am no law expert but i sure now the basics.

i have called and checked the auction firm in sydney. im not righting any fiction story here. therefore this isnt some naive reaction.

i always tend to do my homework and read before i sign.

i started this thread as an informative piece and appreciate your point on broader perspective however i think your just dismissing me as someone taking p i s s and i am not. surely you would understand when you have been there done that.

i also dont appreciate being blamed for nany laws. its not because of my naive and paranoid attitude but because of ppl like sam we have these laws and i say bring them on.

he is guilty and i have done my homework.

Well one thing is true, you are definitely no law expert.

1) All your evidence is based on two conflicting internet sites neither of which have photos of the odometer plus a couple of phone calls where he says it is not his car it is someone else's who is away but will be back soon.
Did it ever occur to you that the car may ACTUALLY be his cousins? I have sold cars for other people before and have not always had all the info required to answer questions.
There are squillions of posts on here of XR6 holdens and SS falcons on web sites, typos happen.

2) You have accused this person of fraud in the public arena. This is defamatory even if it is true and you have no proof at this time anyway.

3) Your paranoid and naive reaction to seeing this and your absolute conviction that it is a criminal act WITHOUT any evidence other than anecdotal and your interpretation of a phone call is very similar to the media hysteria that always appears whenever a car with a P plate has an accident (must have been hooning and speeding).

If the car has not actually been sold then he is not guilty of anything even if it is really a Gogomobile with 1,000,000km on it.

Bottom line, if guy's story turns out to be true and it actually is his cousins car and/or one of the web sites has stuffed up with a typo are you man enough to start a public apology thread?

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by divine_afg

if you havent borthered checking the links

in auction site the ks are 185761 and carsales 86000

I think everyone here has read the sites description on the odometer reading....
Rounding up is not fraud.... so if the 185761km was rounded up to 186000km and somewhere the one got dropped because the add was written incorrectly then you really need a photo to show the odometer reading to sort it out once and for all.

Wasting time on prank calls will get you nowhere, just ask for a picture of the instrument cluster, end of story.

[ea_boss_05]

Did anybody notice thyat the car is not AWD. Maybe he just removed the badges.

[MAD]

It still stands that the carsales ad says they are upgrading because of growing family, then when he rang the story was that he's getting a van for work, and now it's his cousins car.
Sure none of it is 100% proof, but it is painting a pretty bad picture.

[svo supporter]

It's obvious you're not interested in doing anything about the car, other than have a rant and rave about a possible "fraud" relating to an odo reading.

You have let everyone know about this car on the forum, so we can all keep an eye out for it.

So I wouldn't worry about pranking him or carrying on too much more about it. That's of course you want to buy it, or have more money than cents ringing all the time.

[El_Poochino]

Originally Posted by CoupeXB

Are you sure it's not just a typo error in his ad and the odo in the vehicle is still on 186000km? If he did a speedo swap out of a wreck its unlikely he'd find one exactly 100000km less.

This. Derp derp derp.