Coyote XR8 still a year away

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stang65

I disagree with number 2) mate,( I often agree with the majority of your posts as you always have some great contributions.)

I would have bought an xr8 when I bought my xr6 turbo, the only reason I didn`t was because the turbo was quicker.

If the xr8 was quicker I would have bought it and I bought new and I know alot of guys with xr6 turbo`s that thought the same way I did.

I understand that and those comments aren't directed at any specific person, they are in
fact a generic representation of where Ford finds itself with V8 buyers. By the time Ford
gets a NA 5.0 in the Falcon, Holden will be bringing out its next Gen V8 with DI and VCT.
That's what i mean about offering an XR8 that isn't competitive with a future SS AND
I honestly believe that this is why Ford is holding off to see what's on offer next year
and who is actually going to buy an XR8 and what performance they expect versus the SS.

[FG XR]

If this is true what is ford trying to do, push customers away to buy an SS??? Or just forcing people to look at the GS??

Lunatics.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nitro XR6

If this is true what is ford trying to do, push customers away to buy an SS??? Or just forcing people to look at the GS??

Lunatics.

Push people away?
Putting a competitive engine in an XR8 isn't cheap I suspect that the
poor return on FG 5.4 XR8 didn't justify going ahead with another XR8.

[4Vman]

What will suffer more if the XR8 comes back as a ripper... SS sales or XR6T sales....

I think people are over estimating the amount of people who cross shop brands...

I think Ford know this which is why they're not too worried about rushing the XR8 back, a Ford sale is a good sale. GS is filling the gap nicely id say.

Its a bit like Commodore Sedan and Hatch sales.... combine them both and they just equal roughly what the sedan sales were before the hatch became an option..

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

What will suffer more if the XR8 comes back as a ripper... SS sales or XR6T sales....

I think people are over estimating the amount of people who cross shop brands...

Its a bit like Commodore Sedan and Hatch sales.... combine them both and they just equal roughly what the sedan sales were before the hatch became an option..

Thats true, it would be a small section of the market that dares to cross the line.

People often say that the XR8 died because of the GS. I dont think this is true, the XR8 died because the 5.4 was not compliant and the GS situation made/forced Ford into the situation; the spec and overall effort made for the GS shows this, the car is in limbo at the moment (its still a nice car before someone jumps on that).

If Ford had a viable and ready engine then there would be a XR8, unfortunately they are too busy working o the I4T, LPG and new Territory (add T6 to that aswell); my hunch is that its a man power thing and once they are out of the way the XR8 will return. Ford are too busy chasing those sales which will put them in a better position to nail the XR8...well I hope anyway.

[Fireblade]

This link here will tell the tale of the demise of the XR8, first half of last year had it 150 sedan sales and 221 ute sales, that tells me it doesn't sell well (for whatever reason) enough to work on bringing it back, if ever.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=857

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Polyal

GREAT POST.

Holden sell more cars because the give people what they want. Now whether that is profitable or not is another thread but the fact remains they are loyal(ish) to their customers.

Ford on the other hand dictate what we "want". Completely different ways of going about business.



Yeap Ford need more sales, so how does leaving out a good selling car work with that equation? Ford currently dont sell a XR8 because they have shot themselves in the foot with the GS. They can hardly offer a further detuned GS can they...

I have no idea what you are talking about with the "brought" comments.

I can reply to your last section by saying, "why is it that Ford think we will fold and accept what they tell us we want?". Ford fo alot of things right, but its scenarios like this, and then fuzzy grey answers they give that create confusion and ultimately lead to people shopping elsewhere.

Dont tell me that all the people who were previously buying XR8's have taken the plunge and gone with the GS.

Still not one person has come back with "I bought a BF-FG XR8".

I am wondering just who this "XR8 buyer" is?

In that no one has bounght ONE XR8 in the last 5 years I suspect it is unlikely that there is someone that has bought TWO.

The reality is that if the GS had an XR8 badge many of the whingers here would be over the moon happy and babbling on about how the GT is not worth it because the XR8 is just as good for $20k less.

The other issue is that if there is a 5 litre N/A XR8 there in no way it will be even remotely as quick as either the XR6T or SS and the whinge level will be deafening (again). Power for show, torque for go and less than 400 and something Nm on a N/A curve is just not going to cut the mustard.

But then I suppose logic is often not a priority when choosing a car to buy and NEVER a priority when just dreaming about it.....

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by flappist

Still not one person has come back with "I bought a BF-FG XR8".

I am wondering just who this "XR8 buyer" is?

I bought an FG XR8 brand new in Jan 2010. I would buy another one in sedan form for the wife next year if they actually made one.

Why? I am not a fan of turbos, I love my V8s, dont care what is faster/slower and I like the FG as an overall package.

Guess what the mrs is looking at - VE SS's because she knows I like V8's and she wants a nice new car.

Now tell me I am the only one?

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Actually I believe it is called 'choices'

You can option a V8 in Holden SS, Berlina, Calais, Statesman (have i missed any?) and thats before you even look at HSV.

You cant option a V8 Berlina any more.

..................

But this whole delay came from Ford deciding that the XR8 would be built by FPV (now known as the GS). But as we know that was changed back and the XR8 would be sold by Ford.
Unfortunately it was a decision by Ford that bit them in the bum. How much this will hurt them is sort of an unknown. But I doubt it will hurt them as much as not having an LPG model.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

This link here will tell the tale of the demise of the XR8, first half of last year had it 150 sedan sales and 221 ute sales, that tells me it doesn't sell well (for whatever reason) enough to work on bringing it back, if ever.

http://www.fordforums.com.au/vbporta...article&id=857

Of course it meet a slow death, the I6T was arguably a better car, the SS was arguably a better V8 and Holden were discounting like mad..this is my point, offer something worth buying, make it the right price and it will sell.

Originally Posted by flappist

Still not one person has come back with "I bought a BF-FG XR8".

I am wondering just who this "XR8 buyer" is?

In that no one has bounght ONE XR8 in the last 5 years I suspect it is unlikely that there is someone that has bought TWO.

The reality is that if the GS had an XR8 badge many of the whingers here would be over the moon happy and babbling on about how the GT is not worth it because the XR8 is just as good for $20k less.

The other issue is that if there is a 5 litre N/A XR8 there in no way it will be even remotely as quick as either the XR6T or SS and the whinge level will be deafening (again). Power for show, torque for go and less than 400 and something Nm on a N/A curve is just not going to cut the mustard.

But then I suppose logic is often not a priority when choosing a car to buy and NEVER a priority when just dreaming about it.....

Its a tough question, and Ill gaurantee no one here will have the correct answer to who the XR8 buyer is exactly, and these forums as you have mentioned before give a rather skewed result. You cant say that no one has brought on in 5 years, they do sell even when they are "inferior".

The reality actually is that the GS does not wear a XR8 badge, and the entry level V8 Ford is actually a supercharged FPV (which comes with other extra costs). Great for those who are happy enough with the GS's power and dont see the GT as necessary, but what about those who dont want to stretch to $60k once its on the road? In reality its a XR8 thats $10k more expensive, some will be happy with that equation but others will be forced out by price, which is the whole essence of the XR8; affordable V8 motoring.

Also whats this talk of the possibility that the n/a 5.0 would be a slug, lets look at the stats:

2011 Ford Mustang GT, 412 hp (307 kW) @ 6500 rpm, 390 lb·ft (529 N·m) @ 4250 rpm

Boss 290 4-valve DOHC 5.4 L V8, 389 hp (290 kW) @ 5500 rpm, 384 lb·ft (521 N·m) @ 4500 rpm

So more power, equal torque at about the same rev range. The US coyote is a far more flexible engine with its technology, will handle better with less weight and should use less fuel to boot. Im not seeing anything bad about that at all. Granted the Falcon carries more weight, but once up and going its less of an issue and id tip 99% of XR8 buyers wouldn't care.

No one is expecting the XR8 to match the GS/GT, just offer a similar experience without the fuss.

Im not entirely sure why there is any negativity with this car, if it works and Ford have the cash then do it. Anyway, all this as been covered in the XR8 discussion thread aswell, perhaps worth merging this?

Originally Posted by vztrt

But I doubt it will hurt them as much as not having an LPG model.

Bingo.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by b2tf

I bought an FG XR8 brand new in Jan 2010. I would buy another one in sedan form for the wife next year if they actually made one.

Why? I am not a fan of turbos, I love my V8s, dont care what is faster/slower and I like the FG as an overall package.

Guess what the mrs is looking at - VE SS's because she knows I like V8's and she wants a nice new car.

Now tell me I am the only one?

Ah good, at least one. That is a start.

Now as an actual buyer, would you be interested in a GS as is or in a GS that was called XR8?

Or do you want an N/A V8 only?

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Im not entirely sure why there is any negativity with this car, if it works and Ford have the cash then do it. Anyway, all this as been covered in the XR8 discussion thread aswell, perhaps worth merging this?

I wouldn't call it negativity more of a reality situation, Ford will not cater for maybe 400-500 sales with little margin, there is too many options out there that I don't think they could make it compete at a reasonable price, I love XR8's and the EB XR8 turned me from a staunch Holden supporter to a Ford supporter but since Tickford fell by the wayside and FPV took over, the XR8 was slowly slowly pushed to the wayside by the other performance options available, IMO the current GS should have been the XR8 rebirthed by FPV, if the GS sells now the XR8 would have sold the same.

[FPV8U]

The XR8 didn't sell not because there wasn't a market (XR8 sales were at an all time high in BA & BA MKII) but because there were no updates, guys who bought a BA in 2003 could update to basically the same car 3-4 years later, same problem the Territory is having right now..

Plenty of Ex-BSeries XR8 owners driving F6's and XR6T's now, the FG upgrade was a bit "too little, too late" the engine had a negative view in the media and then to top it off they made the XR6T quicker with the FG update not the XR8.

As i have said before you can't see a product as being behind the 8 Ball in sales and performance and then update its main rival within its own blood line and scratch your head as to why it's not moving from dealers.

Ford Failed the XR8 as much as the XR8 failed Ford IMO.

BTW in 2006 i tossed up a new BF MK1 XR8 or my current 2003 model, the difference was over 20K drive away for pretty much the same car with a different gearbox, the BF "Upgrade" was a flop unless you were after an ZF Auto.

[ratter]

A lot of the posters here seem to be missing Flappist's point.

Ford Australia make their money from new car sales, the second hand market is probably very little concern to them, which is what I assume Flappist is talking about. If the posters were serious buyers Ford may take more notice of what is wanted and change their plan, but possible 2nd or 3rd owners do not give Ford Australia their income so probably would not rate highly to influence their plan

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ah good, at least one. That is a start.

Now as an actual buyer, would you be interested in a GS as is or in a GS that was called XR8?

Or do you want an N/A V8 only?

Devils advocate here as finances do not allow a purchase - for now. The scenario I mentioned of a new car for me and mrs b2tf is set to happen sometime next year.

Me personally - I would be interested in a GS BUT to be honest I dont think the better half will see the value. Hence my reasoning that Ford should still sell a V8 that it is not under the FPV name or price structure.

Whether that is N/A or not would be dictated by budget but I would not be disappointed buying an N/A XR8.

For me personally I would be looking for (wanting):

Leather seats
GOOD aircon (or the name of the engineer who builds the crap FG one so I can slap him sideways)
A good colour selection
A reasonable insurance policy cost (this would be a big ?? if it were a blown engine I would think)

The better half will look at:

Cost overall
Inclusions compared to other makes of similar type (eg SS etc)
Practicality
Drivability (she wont want to be driving a tank)
Service costs
Warranty
Comfort

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

the BF "Upgrade" was a flop unless you were after an ZF Auto.

I disagree here:

Better build quality
Better NVH
Better brakes
New wheel designs
New trim options
Better engine performance and reliability (remember the early BOSS engines?)

Sure it wasnt much but it was enough to count.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by b2tf

I disagree here:

Better build quality
Better NVH
Better brakes
New wheel designs
New trim options
Better engine performance and reliability (remember the early BOSS engines?)

Sure it wasnt much but it was enough to count.

Hrrm i see what you mean on a few of them, ok i'll pay the new wheels and front bar, forgot about the brake upgrade from the Territory.

Build quality is questionable IMO and i have been in a few BF's, but they were supposed to be better.

Trim options.. new cloth trim and?

The problem with this list Austin is that besides the Brakes, not one of those addressed the major complaint of the Boss 260 Vs the 6.0L L76 and the A6 4.0LT, a mate of mines M6 BF XR8 ute used more fuel and was slower than any other Boss 260 i have spent time around.

Just the way i saw it at the time.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

The problem with this list Austin is that besides the Brakes, not one of those addressed the major complaint of the Boss 260 Vs the 6.0L L76 and the A6 4.0LT, a mate of mines M6 BF XR8 ute used more fuel and was slower than any other Boss 260 i have spent time around.

Just the way i saw it at the time.

Jase i dont disagree, look i will get flamed to buggery for saying it but the BOSS i believe was/is a very overrated engine. That said though, yes I did buy and own one and I enjoyed it, however if i was not so admittedly brand biased i would have given more thought to a Holden.

I bought my FG because I liked the look and feel of the car, and it was a V8. A turbo did not even get a test drive because I had my heart set on a V8, and in particular, another XR8. So that's what I bought.

When I sold it and downgraded I replaced it with - yes you guessed it - another XR8. And I would like to replace this one with another XR8 too!

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Jase i dont disagree, look i will get flamed to buggery for saying it but the BOSS i believe was/is a very overrated engine. That said though, yes I did buy and own one and I enjoyed it, however if i was not so admittedly brand biased i would have given more thought to a Holden.

No need for flaming, its simple your wrong

Just a J/K.

In all seriousness we all know the Boss V8 had it's weak points, there were ways for these points to be adressed but Ford never spent the money, in reality the Boss had two versions that impressed at their time of release, the 290 in 2003/04 then the 315 in 2008, and as i refered to that didn't really help the XR8 in BF Guise where the sales went from reasonable with BA MKII to a joke by BF MKII.

[4Vman]

I bought XR8's because 1) im Ford through and through, 2) i love and prefer V8's and 3) i do too many K's per year to justify the extra cost of a GT.
XR6T never was a consideration, because at a similar price point i could have had the 8, a tenth here and there isnt enough to compromise my preferences at that price point.
I Bought an XR6 this time purely because of price and running costs, or so i imagined BUT..... its turned out to be a false expectation of econnomy because the I6 is damn thirsty for the type of driving i do and frankly a dissapointment in that respect.

If Ford bring out an XR8 that can return similar economy (as the GT is proving to be outstanding at) its a definate possibility although i think this time ive got my heart set on something further up the tree..

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I bought XR8's because 1) im Ford through and through, 2) i love and prefer V8's and 3) i do too many K's per year to justify the extra cost of a GT.
XR6T never was a consideration, because at a similar price point i could have had the 8, a tenth here and there isnt enough to compromise my preferences at that price point.
I Bought an XR6 this time purely because of price and running costs, or so i imagined BUT..... its turned out to be a false expectation of econnomy because the I6 is damn thirsty for the type of driving i do and frankly a dissapointment in that respect.

If Ford bring out an XR8 that can return similar economy (as the GT is proving to be outstanding at) its a definate possibility although i think this time ive got my heart set on something further up the tree..

Glad you posted Norm as a AUIII(?) and BA XR8 owner i was wondering what drove you away from a Boss in FG Form when you updated.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Glad you posted Norm as a AUIII(?) and BA XR8 owner i was wondering what drove you away from a Boss in FG Form when you updated.

Ok, Technically ive owned 3; 220 AU2, BA, (and provided a staff member a BF).

To be perfectly honest running costs put me off the stretch, my AU averaged 14.5/100, BA/F 15.5/100, now FG XR6 13/100.
I now do allot of K's.
FG XR8 worried me that id be another $150 a month worse off for fuel and 350/month lease costs.
On top of that all the negativity posted here about it worried me about resale/trade in value too.
I did look hard at a G6ET though, but despite all the grand claims here the REAL world costs friends get for I6T's were around 15-16/100 for similar driving, so there was no advantage in my mind to go 6T from a running cost perspective over an XR8.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by ratter

A lot of the posters here seem to be missing Flappist's point.

Ford Australia make their money from new car sales, the second hand market is probably very little concern to them, which is what I assume Flappist is talking about. If the posters were serious buyers Ford may take more notice of what is wanted and change their plan, but possible 2nd or 3rd owners do not give Ford Australia their income so probably would not rate highly to influence their plan

Since when were we talking second hand cars? I dont intend on driving the Au until Australia's LPG supply runs out. How are the people on these forums not serious buyers? The forums do not represent whats out there we are a bunch on looney's.

XR8 wont make Ford lots of cash, it will sell to those who dont want a FPV or cant afford one or who simply cannot justify the extra expense vs performance for these use.

I4T is very close, so is the LPG and the same with the terry, after that I believe we will hear more, maybe even at the Melbourne Motor Show.

Originally Posted by b2tf

I disagree here:

Better build quality
Better NVH
Better brakes
New wheel designs
New trim options
Better engine performance and reliability (remember the early BOSS engines?)

Sure it wasnt much but it was enough to count.

I think what FPV8U is getting at is the drivetrain, lets face it, the reason we/people wants XR8's is for the engine, if I was after better NVH and ride id be looking at a XT.

But your right, the BF was a better car, but perhaps not in the area's that really mattered.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I bought XR8's because 1) im Ford through and through, 2) i love and prefer V8's and 3) i do too many K's per year to justify the extra cost of a GT.
XR6T never was a consideration, because at a similar price point i could have had the 8, a tenth here and there isnt enough to compromise my preferences at that price point.
I Bought an XR6 this time purely because of price and running costs, or so i imagined BUT..... its turned out to be a false expectation of econnomy because the I6 is damn thirsty for the type of driving i do and frankly a dissapointment in that respect.

If Ford bring out an XR8 that can return similar economy (as the GT is proving to be outstanding at) its a definate possibility although i think this time ive got my heart set on something further up the tree..

All great reasons to want a XR8, and your not alone. You have also done the hard yards and naturally worked your way up the Ford tree; as I am sure all of us aspire to do.

But that raises another valid point, having the entry level FORD XR8 bleeds new customers. You can argue the XR6T does this to a point but most people who want an 8 wont get a XR6T. The GS as mentioned previously is a big step for an "entry" V8.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Polyal

All great reasons to want a XR8, and your not alone. You have also done the hard yards and naturally worked your way up the Ford tree; as I am sure all of us aspire to do.

But that raises another valid point, having the entry level FORD XR8 bleeds new customers. You can argue the XR6T does this to a point but most people who want an 8 wont get a XR6T. The GS as mentioned previously is a big step for an "entry" V8.

Look, i agree i think Ford need an "entry level" V8 performance product, but there's a worrying trend about pricing expectation, my optioned AU2 XR8 cost me 49K, the BA XR8 51K, the BF sold from memory in its optioned state about 53K, now people are talking mid to low 40's for XR6T/XR8??? We're going backwards in costs and complaining too.

I also think Ford have stuffed up simply by offering options and not packaging them into model differentiation first off, it kills resale value.

On pricing does anyone remember what an ELGT retailed for? 300 Calloway GTS ??

[Perko]

I was at a country dealership last week looking at a XR50 ute. The owner was under the distinct impression that the XR8 would be N/A as the article suggests but would be ready for sale around the same time as the new Territory. So I am now waiting in anticipation...

[Fireblade]

Not sure on EL GT, but GTS 300 was 99k from memory if not a tad over 100k

Pricing is the key to all of this and what people want for the money, as Norm pointed out the B series XR8 wasn't far off what is GS money today, the lower the price point the lower the features. Not going to get much of a car for mid to low 40k IMO.

[Polyal]

I dont think the XR8 should be the same price as the XR6T, it should always carry a premium, but I think ~$50k is a limit that once over is hard to justify as the GS is "only" $6k away + onroads (again a whole issue in itself, devalues FPV, makes it harder for Ford). Id have no problems with that price.

edit: I dont know the figures, but the BOSS program couldn't have been cheap either. I mean custom bits for such a small market. This time around though we know a consumer can buy a 5.0 for $7kUS, you would hope FoA could get it internally for around half that, then you add tax and freight etc, so lets say $5-6k..although we do have a FTA. Anyway, its must be a cheaper exercise than what they have done previously. Holden have been doing it for ages.

We still have a while to run with the falcon as we know it, unless they decide to move early, so I cant see the sense in delaying the decision if its technically possible.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by F6 FOON

Not going to get much of a car for mid to low 40k IMO.

It might depend on what your definition of what 'much of a car' is.

Id be happy with something along the lines of XT spec with a V8 in it - like you could get in the B series.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by Polyal

I dont think the XR8 should be the same price as the XR6T, it should always carry a premium

Was it not you saying they should be the same price earlier in the thread? Thats a serious question btw, not having a go at you.

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by b2tf

It might depend on what your definition of what 'much of a car' is.

Id be happy with something along the lines of XT spec with a V8 in it - like you could get in the B series.

My expectation would be pretty high, the options I would want would put it well into FPV territory. I expect more from the XR series than what we really get.