Hydrogen .... Believe it or not.

[ryeman]

In anticipation of the introduction of hydrogen from 2017, Mercedes/Nissan/Renault have let it be known that planning for the supporting infrastructure should commence ASAP.
I am assuming Europe will lead the way and the ? is are the API going to try and block such moves here as I also assume their counterparts will in the US.
Will the ex LPG pumps be used to supply this new fuel.
Apart from the usual "...I'll believe it when I see it" comments......"times ARE achangin" faster and faster.
For some threateningly so......

[pottery beige]

im fermenting sliced onions and cucumber skins

i dont need your damn hydrogen

[irish2]

Originally Posted by ryeman

In anticipation of the introduction of hydrogen from 2017, Mercedes/Nissan/Renault have let it be known that planning for the supporting infrastructure should commence ASAP.
I am assuming Europe will lead the way and the ? is are the API going to try and block such moves here as I also assume their counterparts will in the US.
Will the ex LPG pumps be used to supply this new fuel.
Apart from the usual "...I'll believe it when I see it" comments......"times ARE achangin" faster and faster.
For some threateningly so......

Hydrogen is fine as a fuel source. The problem is the simpletons who think they are going to be able to fill up with water and drive away.

[SSD-85]

Hydrogen fuel stations are already present in California. And AFAIK, Ford seem to be only US car maker really looking into it.

I personally see it as the saviour of the internal combustion engine, since it can be applied in that way with relative efficiency. Storage remains the biggest obstacle.

[poppa smurf]

Originally Posted by irish2

Hydrogen is fine as a fuel source. The problem is the simpletons who think they are going to be able to fill up with water and drive away.

Thank christ for that......have you seen the price of bottled water in servos, I could never afford that.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Forevermore

Hydrogen fuel stations are already present in California. And AFAIK, Ford seem to be only US car maker really looking into it.

I personally see it as the saviour of the internal combustion engine, since it can be applied in that way with relative efficiency. Storage remains the biggest obstacle.

BMW had a hydrogen 7 series a while back, it was on youtube.

I think the problem is it has to be stored at a really low temperature, the figure -270 degrees comes to mind for some reason, or I may be thinking of something else.

[ryeman]

IIR liquid under high pressure ....would an LPG tank suffice?.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

BMW had a hydrogen 7 series a while back, it was on youtube.

I think the problem is it has to be stored at a really low temperature, the figure -270 degrees comes to mind for some reason, or I may be thinking of something else.

If you mean 270 degrees Celsius, that is near absolute zero... I wonder how that would be achieved?

[ryeman]

The issues relating to hydrogen are seemingly the same as LPG as far as 'explosive' issues are concerned but the weight is significantly higher apparently requiring structural strengthening.
All the other safety issues such as supply, transport and storage are seemingly no more of an issue than the LPG ones incl BBQs.

[zilo]

The tank needs to be significantly better structured due to the higher pressures involved ( I seem to recall)

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by zilo

The tank needs to be significantly better structured due to the higher pressures involved ( I seem to recall)

So now the ? is, can a conventional SI engine be converted as dual fuel?......
To answer my own ? ....who would want to?.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by zilo

The tank needs to be significantly better structured due to the higher pressures involved ( I seem to recall)

Same problems as CNG......Need to be stored at VERY LOW temps.....and tanks are quite heavy due to insulation being required....

LPG doesn't need either of these and we already have hundreds of pumps installed nation wide!

[ryeman]

IIR the shear size of the CNG tanks is a problem because it remains in a gaseous state doesn't it?.

[madmelon]

Hydrogen is an extremely difficult material to deal with. To store in any decent quantity, you have to either compress it to ridiculous pressures or cool it to near absolute zero. In both cases there are problems- boiling for the cryogenic liquid or permeation for the compressed gas. Additionally, energy per unit volume of hydrogen is very low in comparison to hydrocarbon fuels we're used to- Wikipedia says liquid hydrogen has even less mass of hydrogen in it per volume than typical liquid hydrocarbons.

To put it in perspective- look at the volume fuel tanks carried by the Aston Martin Hydrogen Rapide that competed at the Nurburgring 24H this year- massive storage volume and it only held about 3.5kg, enough for about two laps.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ryeman

IIR the shear size of the CNG tanks is a problem because it remains in a gaseous state doesn't it?.

Yes. 'Compressed Natural Gas'. This is why LPG is the future because the fuel is stored as a liquid so you can store much more fuel in a much smaller tank.......LPG expands 270 times from a liquid state to a gaseous state per every cubic inch of fuel......And the liquid injection systems are being improved and as long as the fuel stays under $1.00 the savings are still there + cleaner emissions.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Yes. 'Compressed Natural Gas'. This is why LPG is the future because the fuel is stored as a liquid so you can store much more fuel in a much smaller tank.......LPG expands 270 times from a liquid state to a gaseous state per every cubic inch of fuel......And the liquid injection systems are being improved and as long as the fuel stays under $1.00 the savings are still there + cleaner emissions.

I agree that LPG as a stand alone argument has more going for it.....the problem is 'the elephant I'm the room' unfortunately.....declining consumption...declining conversion....declining.....gone!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by superyob

If you mean 270 degrees Celsius, that is near absolute zero... I wonder how that would be achieved?

Yeah thats the one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLiTO8lX2UU

BMW Hydrogen 7

Its an actual car, they're going through it in the video and asking questions.

I think we should stick with improving LPG, they've come with some big improvements with LPG technology in the last few years and as much as I couldn't care about the Falcon, its a shame we're losing everything that came with it like the EcoLPI technology, Ford won't be doing anymore development into it so we just lost one of the big boys of LPG development.

[CyberWasp]

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

[Franco Cozzo]

I wouldn't mind giving Biodiesel a shot but I don't want the whole meth lab setup in my garage to make it, my GMC has an old school IDI diesel engine, and there are people running them on biodiesel, WVO (waste vegetable oil) and WMO (waste motor oil/waste ATF), the latter really carbons up injectors and fuel system though.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ryeman

I agree that LPG as a stand alone argument has more going for it.....the problem is 'the elephant I'm the room' unfortunately.....declining consumption...declining conversion....declining.....gone!

Not really sure why Ford AND Holden didn't market there LPG models very much at all? If they had of it just may have been enough to keep them going a few more years? Then again it is looking like both companies actually wanted the closures to happen so they could offshore to the cheaper countries.

Plus petrol engine tech is still advancing ie EcoBoost/SIDI but I have heard the SIDI's coke the combustion chambers up from too much city driving?

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I wouldn't mind giving Biodiesel a shot but I don't want the whole meth lab setup in my garage to make it, my GMC has an old school IDI diesel engine, and there are people running them on biodiesel, WVO (waste vegetable oil) and WMO (waste motor oil/waste ATF), the latter really carbons up injectors and fuel system though.

Of course WMO would ruin fuel system its already full of contaminents from the engines it was removed from.....How much carbon does an LPG engine produce?.......................NONE!

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

Covered in the LPG section......

DEAD

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

What is the future for LPG in this country once the LPG Falcon and Commodore are gone?

The 500,000 registered LPG vehicles are mostly retro fitted, which kind of makes a mockery of buying LPG vehicles new...

Now that significant numbers of LPG vehicles exist, you can bet that just like diesel in SUVs and trucks,
LPG price will go up to protect oil companies income streams, I recon close on $1/litre form now on....

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The 500,000 registered LPG vehicles are mostly retro fitted, which kind of makes a mockery of buying LPG vehicles new...

Now that significant numbers of LPG vehicles exist, you can bet that just like diesel in SUVs and trucks,
LPG price will go up to protect oil companies income streams, I recon close on $1/litre form now on....

Yep, as long as your bum is pointed at the ground

Anything in life that gives you advantage

They will jump on it

[ryeman]

If any govt had understood the knock on effect from an impending Folden closure they wouldn't have bothered with LPG tax exempt status......it was never a consideration I'm thinking ....they thought it would be around long enough to undermine the tax base if they didn't introduce the levy.
Instead, just another nail.....

[bobthebilda]

The problem is that hydrogen cars will be speed limited to under 150,000 kilometres per second. Everytime two cars travelling at 150,000 kilometres per second, hit each other, they would set of a chain reaction.

[UberKnee]

They need to get the infrastructure up and running before or at the same time as these cars are mass released. Biggest thing holding back the like of electric and hydrogen cars is refueling, though electric cars are severely hampered by ridiculously long recharge times as well.

[max_torq]

LNG will eventually become the fuel of trucks in this country, that will require infrastructure changes. If it can be done with LNG along the highways and hydrogen in the city..

Highway to Shell

[Syndrome]

Hydrogen? No thanks.

[thefargo]

[QUOTE=Syndrome;4975481]Hydrogen? No thanks.

the 'explosion and fire' was aluminium oxide, the silver covering(paint) not the hydrogen.
if you can find it check the colour images, the flames are blue/green, which is aluminium burning, not hydrogen, which burns with a clear flame.
interestingly enough, the aluminium oxide paint, is very similar to the solid fuel used in shuttle launches.