The drug "Ice"

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Death penalty for dealers and severe punishment for repeat offenders. They have made their choice to step out of line with the majority. Soft approach doesn't work.

And how many users do you personally know ?

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by SpoolMan

announced yesterday, Victorian Government reveals $45.5m plan to tackle ice problem.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-0...roblem/6282258

Just another useless labor "task force" that sounds cool in the news and might buy a few more votes but achieves nothing in reality. They really are a one trick pony.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Just another useless labor "task force" that sounds cool in the news and might buy a few more votes but achieves nothing in reality. They really are a one trick pony.

Better than Nap Time's BS cover everything up and do nothing tactics.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Better than Nap Time's BS cover everything up and do nothing tactics.

Not really but I didn't say he was any better.

Throwing money at people that don't want help is pointless.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Death penalty for dealers and severe punishment for repeat offenders. They have made their choice to step out of line with the majority. Soft approach doesn't work.

100% agree with first bit...

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

And how many users do you personally know ?

Two good mates have totally run off the rails.
Both were married, two kids, great jobs and all the toys. One even had his own business valued aver $2M. All gone.
One lives with his mum in a unit in country Vic and the other is a lost cause who knows where.

Some facts:
Their families are devastated.
Both had dabbled with dope, and speed which lead to Ice.
They were adults.
They put their own enjoyment above those who were relying on them to be adults.

I fully believe that a strong deterrent would have seen them go down a different path. They both know there is basically no punishment if you get caught.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Both had dabbled with dope, and speed which lead to Ice.

Not always.

Originally Posted by mr smith

I fully believe that a strong deterrent would have seen them go down a different path. They both know there is basically no punishment if you get caught.

The problem there is that most users don't look that far ahead... usually no further than tomorrow in most cases.

But did they want to quit and how much help did you give them and their family?

[Dash_XR]

If weed leads to ice then Americas in trouble, within 5 years or so anyone over 21 will be able to buy it over the counter legally. I guess they'll all be ice addicts in a few years..

[JC]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

And how many users do you personally know ?

I know 2. Both immediate family members. One dead by his own hand 7 years ago (RIP). The other is now bipolar as a result of sustained marijuana use and has permanent brain damage from the various drugs tried since she was 15 (now 33).

My sister has been drug free (including the meds for her bipolar) for 3 years and has a 2 year old child that was conceived while on drugs, but is probably her saviour in that she is her reason to give the drugs away (she still had enough mental capacity to not be totally selfish). Her brain has started to find other ways to process info, so she is better every month/year, but will more than likely be on DSP for ever (I'm no doctor though, so don't quote me on that). She hopes one day to get a job, and is studying at TAFE to make it happen.

It wasn't just Ice, or just ketamine, or just dope, or just ecstasy, or coke etc for either of them - it was one thing leads to another, one drug is good, so the next one they try might be better, etc (no ever tells what the negatives are). My brother actually gave up grog because it was supposedly more harmful than the party drugs he preferred - that backfired since it was the demons that presented themselves to him when he was awake (caused by the drugs) that made him take his life - at least that's what he told us in the note he left.

Some say that one drug doesn't lead to another, but I would argue that it may, can and does - perhaps unknowingly. For those that prefer "recreational drugs" to alcohol, for example, they will chase the high and euphoria by whatever is available, and if someone tells them that "this one is better than e", then why wouldn't they give it a go? What harm could it cause? And there is your escalation right there - Ice mixed with whatever else is in the same pill, and the taker is none the wiser (they were simply told it was better than e). Some survive, some die, and some are left addicted, twisted and a drain on society.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

If weed leads to ice then Americas in trouble, within 5 years or so anyone over 21 will be able to buy it over the counter legally. I guess they'll all be ice addicts in a few years..

While weed may not directly lead to Ice - it shows a predisposition to partake of illegal drugs (yes, legal in some US states - but that just says more about their perverted society than anything else they do), and allows a foot in the door to harder and more damaging drugs.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by JC

While weed may not directly lead to Ice - it shows a predisposition to partake of illegal drugs (yes, legal in some US states - but that just says more about their perverted society than anything else they do), and allows a foot in the door to harder and more damaging drugs.

Only because the same person sells them, if you were buying it from a pharmacy they arn't going to sell you ICE are they? Its like alchohol not everyone that has a sip of beer when they are a kid become an alcholic only a very very small minority do.

And as for no one explaining the dangers to them? Allot of these people are grown adults for Christ sake they should be able to think for themselves and take responsibility for there actions. You know it is going to ruin your life so don't do it.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Only because the same person sells them, if you were buying it from a pharmacy they arn't going to sell you ICE are they? Its like alchohol not everyone that has a sip of beer when they are a kid become an alcholic only a very very small minority do.

And as for no one explaining the dangers to them? Allot of these people are grown adults for Christ sake they should be able to think for themselves and take responsibility for there actions. You know it is going to ruin your life so don't do it.

I didn't mean explaining the general dangers of taking drugs; I meant the possible effects of one drug different (but "Better") than a previously tried drug....But, yes I get that adults should make the correct decisions. And Ice should NEVER be sold in a pharmacy - pseudoephedrine is already and is limited for a reason.....

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Not always.

Its the exposure to dealers in which to get the drugs. I'll also say any ice user over 35 has tried dope and speed. Maybe not the younger ones.

The problem there is that most users don't look that far ahead... usually no further than tomorrow in most cases.

But did they want to quit and how much help did you give them and their family?

Initially they loved it, but once they were hooked they wanted off. Problem is that they have been given many, many chances and lots of help from friends but in the end they crapped on those trying to help.
My take now is they should be removed from society and locked in mental institution as I see them as being a danger to society (similar to a drink driver).

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

If weed leads to ice then Americas in trouble, within 5 years or so anyone over 21 will be able to buy it over the counter legally. I guess they'll all be ice addicts in a few years..

This will just make the states a bigger nutcase society. Proabition does work.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by JC

I didn't mean explaining the general dangers of taking drugs; I meant the possible effects of one drug different (but "Better") than a previously tried drug....But, yes I get that adults should make the correct decisions. And Ice should NEVER be sold in a pharmacy - pseudoephedrine is already and is limited for a reason.....

Nah not ice but there needs to be a few safe regulated alternatives for people who don't drink. There is allot safer stuff out there then alcohol and people should have that option if they wish.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mr smith

This will just make the states a bigger nutcase society. Proabition does work.

Prohibition didn't work too well in the USA, and either did their recent war on drugs, all it did was fill prisons well past their capacity, build heaps more, and now they're at a stage where its no longer cost effective to build more prisons and that they can't put them in jail.

[revcore]

Back when I was living in Mildura a police man was telling me of an event that happened...
A guy in his late teens was invited to a party run by the Rebels MC and while he was there was offered some ice. He accepted and tried it and was hooked on it after a couple of days. Soon after he was approached by a high ranking member of the Rebels and was asked if he would become a ice dealer for them. Again he accepted.
Anyway, He ended up using more than he was selling and accumulated a huge debt which he couldn't repay.
Soon after he was threatened by the Rebels that if he didn't pay up they would do a run through smashing whoever and whatever was in the house.
He couldn't handle the thought of his family being beaten and subsequently took his own life.
This just highlights one of the many dangers involved with ice and it's epidemic nationwide.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Prohibition didn't work too well in the USA, and either did their recent war on drugs, all it did was fill prisons well past their capacity, build heaps more, and now they're at a stage where its no longer cost effective to build more prisons and that they can't put them in jail.

Exactly, if something doesn't work for decades you need to change your approach, sometimes drastically or even multiple times untill you get a result.

Like you say once you got more criminals than tax payers then what do you do?

[The Monty]

I just wonder, after years and years of being completely anti drug, that legalization of all drugs would be a better road for Australia to take.
No MORE people will take it. Those that want to take it will still take it.
At least with regulation, you take away the ebb and flow of a drug addict. Its always available and is always of a high quality grade. The government could reap the benefits of the tax that would be made and would be able to use part of that money to give counselling/other programs to attempt to get these people off these drugs.
And please, before anyone berates me, understand that I am in a position to comment on things like this, and have had a lot of friends and family members commit suicide, loose everything, have mental illness and even committed murder because of drugs.
Our way of dealing with drugs will just never work. We will never win and without legalization we will only spend more every single day.

[MITCHAY]

I just don't understand in this age of information (even those from bad background) why some people go down this road. The generations before did not have anywhere near the resources we do today.

In my opinion long term and regular drug use ends one of three ways and perhaps a combination of all of them. A poor life (often starting from a good one to begin with), prison, or death.

Of course there are exceptions to the rule but the same is true of abusing alcohol which is regulated and taxed.

I don't think we solve everything by regulating drugs other than perhaps removing a great deal of the criminal element.

We're at the stage where we have to think. Are we fighting a losing battle and do we continue to try to stop it or make it regulated along with boosting resources in preventing those from taking it up to begin with and helping those kick it.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I just wonder, after years and years of being completely anti drug, that legalization of all drugs would be a better road for Australia to take.
No MORE people will take it. Those that want to take it will still take it.
At least with regulation, you take away the ebb and flow of a drug addict. Its always available and is always of a high quality grade. The government could reap the benefits of the tax that would be made and would be able to use part of that money to give counselling/other programs to attempt to get these people off these drugs.
And please, before anyone berates me, understand that I am in a position to comment on things like this, and have had a lot of friends and family members commit suicide, loose everything, have mental illness and even committed murder because of drugs.
Our way of dealing with drugs will just never work. We will never win and without legalization we will only spend more every single day.

I hear and understand the basis for your reasoning but totally oppose it. Making drugs acceptable = more people willing to try them and more space cadets behind the wheel of a car...

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I just wonder, after years and years of being completely anti drug, that legalization of all drugs would be a better road for Australia to take.
No MORE people will take it. Those that want to take it will still take it.
At least with regulation, you take away the ebb and flow of a drug addict. Its always available and is always of a high quality grade. The government could reap the benefits of the tax that would be made and would be able to use part of that money to give counselling/other programs to attempt to get these people off these drugs.
And please, before anyone berates me, understand that I am in a position to comment on things like this, and have had a lot of friends and family members commit suicide, loose everything, have mental illness and even committed murder because of drugs.
Our way of dealing with drugs will just never work. We will never win and without legalization we will only spend more every single day.

feed em proper stuff that sits them on their ***.. ??

lol

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by The Monty

I just wonder, after years and years of being completely anti drug, that legalization of all drugs would be a better road for Australia to take.
No MORE people will take it. Those that want to take it will still take it.
At least with regulation, you take away the ebb and flow of a drug addict. Its always available and is always of a high quality grade. The government could reap the benefits of the tax that would be made and would be able to use part of that money to give counselling/other programs to attempt to get these people off these drugs.
And please, before anyone berates me, understand that I am in a position to comment on things like this, and have had a lot of friends and family members commit suicide, loose everything, have mental illness and even committed murder because of drugs.
Our way of dealing with drugs will just never work. We will never win and without legalization we will only spend more every single day.

What legalizing crack, meth heroin etc? That's ridiculous. Also there would be no tax benefits as none of the users would have jobs.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

What legalizing crack, meth heroin etc? That's ridiculous. Also there would be no tax benefits as none of the users would have jobs.

they had no jerbs to start with

[Dash_XR]

Lol, South Park?

[pottery beige]

street level rats tail neck tatt weedy little thug bags anger is more often than not fed by the angry rages of scoring poop and the ensuing angery rages of scoring poop / crime / scoring more poop

give em proper stuff that parks them up

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

What legalizing crack, meth heroin etc? That's ridiculous. Also there would be no tax benefits as none of the users would have jobs.

Like I said, up until recently I was 100000% against it.

It wont attract any more users than there are. If people want it now, they can get it in minutes. The chances of getting caught are extremely slim and if they do get caught, the penalties are laughable.

These drug addicts already have no job. They have no intention of ever having a job. If you took centrelink off them, they still wouldnt work, just commit more crime.

If they were able to go to a doctor and get it legally at a cheaper rate then the street, and have the quality of pharmaceutical grade there would be a big flow on effect.

Firstly, overdoses would drop as it is now metered so our public health bill will go down. Secondly, there is always going to be a revenue market for the government. Tax the maker, tax the seller, tax the user. Use that tax to put these people through programs to help them.

I get to deal with a lot of drug users and a lot of drug addicts. If you asked any drug addict if they WANT to be addicted they would say no. With metering through doctors, they could come off drugs very very slowly, even if it took years. They long for help, but just dont know how to ask, and how to start.

Like I said, its only a thought. I dont mean for a total legalisation where people can walk around puffing shard on the way to work.

Also, in relation to drug driving. Stats released by QPS the other day revealed that 1 in 13 saliva tests are positive for drugs. And they only test for Cannabis, MDMA and Methylamphetamine. So if you think these people arent already on the street doing it anyway, your head is in the sand.

Drugs are everywhere. They are EVERYWHERE and growing fast. The way we are trying to control it now is simply not working. Just look at Portugal. 13 years ago, general possession was made legal. Thats possession of all drugs. In the first few years, reported drug use went up. This was people who finally admit there drug use as it is now legal. But in the last 8 years, reported drug use has plumetted, overdoses, aids infections and other related illness has dramatically reduced. The burden on the health system has reduced. The amount of money that used to be used enforcing drug laws, court fees and imprisonment costs have fallen.

Im not saying its the perfect answer, but its definitely an option.

[Ross 1]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Like I said, up until recently I was 100000% against it.

It wont attract any more users than there are. If people want it now, they can get it in minutes. The chances of getting caught are extremely slim and if they do get caught, the penalties are laughable.

These drug addicts already have no job. They have no intention of ever having a job. If you took centrelink off them, they still wouldnt work, just commit more crime.

If they were able to go to a doctor and get it legally at a cheaper rate then the street, and have the quality of pharmaceutical grade there would be a big flow on effect.

Firstly, overdoses would drop as it is now metered so our public health bill will go down. Secondly, there is always going to be a revenue market for the government. Tax the maker, tax the seller, tax the user. Use that tax to put these people through programs to help them.

I get to deal with a lot of drug users and a lot of drug addicts. If you asked any drug addict if they WANT to be addicted they would say no. With metering through doctors, they could come off drugs very very slowly, even if it took years. They long for help, but just dont know how to ask, and how to start.

Like I said, its only a thought. I dont mean for a total legalisation where people can walk around puffing shard on the way to work.

Also, in relation to drug driving. Stats released by QPS the other day revealed that 1 in 13 saliva tests are positive for drugs. And they only test for Cannabis, MDMA and Methylamphetamine. So if you think these people arent already on the street doing it anyway, your head is in the sand.

Drugs are everywhere. They are EVERYWHERE and growing fast. The way we are trying to control it now is simply not working. Just look at Portugal. 13 years ago, general possession was made legal. Thats possession of all drugs. In the first few years, reported drug use went up. This was people who finally admit there drug use as it is now legal. But in the last 8 years, reported drug use has plumetted, overdoses, aids infections and other related illness has dramatically reduced. The burden on the health system has reduced. The amount of money that used to be used enforcing drug laws, court fees and imprisonment costs have fallen.

Im not saying its the perfect answer, but its definitely an option.

In post 200 of this thread I put in some details of the work done in Portugal that is very similar to what you are writing about. Google , Portugal drug reform, lot of good starting points

[Maka]

Just had a read of this interesting article & comments -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-it-right.html

Lowering drug use's social impact & cost's associated to a state's economy seems achievable but which way to go, a combination of both soft & hard approaches perhaps?

cheer's, Maka

[SpoolMan]

EDDIE MCGUIRE done an opinion piece on drugs in Melbourne's newspaper Herald Sun.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opi...-1227248334179