Want Proof Speed Cameras are nothing more than Revenue Raisers??

[Trevor 57]

I do about 40,000 k's per year with work and leisure, all over Australia, mostly in Victoria, I can't remember the last traffic infringement I got, too long ago.

My licence renewal (10 years) is coming up next year and I reckon I will get the 'good driver' discount again, for the 2nd time.

After a life as a full time truck driver, ordinary driver, etc, my licence has never been suspended, it was issued to me on my 18th birthday and the expiry date is still my birthday 40 years later, damn, how did I do that?

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

My licence renewal (10 years) is coming up next year and I reckon I will get the 'good driver' discount again, for the 2nd time.

To give you the bad news Trevor, Vicroads dont encourage good driving any more by giving out driver licence renewal discounts. They did away with that incentive a couple of years ago, fortunately just after I got my discount.

[Trevor 57]

bugger

[superyob]

It does not matter what the fine is called; revenue raising, speeding fine, or what its motives are. You speed, you get caught, you pay fine. That's the law...

[Mowdit]

Originally Posted by JAJH

The problem is it's almost impossible trying to police the slow driver.

Don't ever see someone pulled over for driving too slow, or failing to indicate, or failing to keep left for that matter, its all SPEED SPEED SPEED !!!!!

Ever taken a fine to court ?
The "prosecution" will state the road conditions at the time, "a clear sunny day with little traffic, good roads and well sign posted" (well its bloody lucky it wasn't dark and ****ing rain, because I would have been "driving to the conditions" and been 10kph under the max LIMIT and wouldn't bloody well be here! )

Rant over/ sorry

[Morry]

At the end of the day speed cameras are mainly for revenue raising. Many times I have driven from Rockhampton to Casino in Nsw. On the Bruce Hwy I have seen a few camera cars and hardly any patrol cars. When I get into Nsw I then see plenty of Hwy patrol cars. Many people don't know they have been done by a camera until they get the fine but when they get pulled over by a police car they learn more of a lesson. If they are serious about saving lives on our roads they need better driver training,put more patrol cars/police on our roads and improve the standards of our roads.

[2011G6E]

We don't need proof...we know what they are...

The moment they put a quota, an "expected revenue amount", or budget for a certain intake of cash, it immediately places a massive black cloud over the whole system. It removes every single shred of trust the public might have had in the process.

Add to that the complete lie that the machinery used (be that hand held, fixed, or camera detection) is 100%, completely, absolutely, inherently accurate in all weather, location, and environmental conditions, and you have a system that is riddled with bull from top to bottom. The way they talk about the supposed absolute accuracy and unerring pin point precision of the things, NASA could learn a few things from them about making electronics...

[Lockitupoz]

We have a road here in Forster - it was a 100 kph limit 10 years ago, then it went to 90 now it is at 80kph limit. In the past 10 years this road has been widened, straightened and resurfaced! Why is it less safe now than 10 years ago?

And those bastard mobile camera cars, they setup in a 50 k zone where it is downhill and leading up to a 60 zone. In 20 years there hasn't been an accident in the area - but now it is being heavily policed for dangerous speeds as if it is a "black spot".

How about policing speeds in known black spots, instead of safe areas. If it was about safety not cash, this would win my vote.

Cheers
JD

[Dr Terry]

From post #13

"In the 1990s I spent three years as Chairman of the Road Black Spot Consultative Committee. Every year I'd get a list of the worst accident sites in Queensland and I'd frequently drive out to inspect them. I never saw a police speed trap at a traffic black spot, but I'd see a lot of them on safe locations along the way.
That's the problem. The emphasis is on making money, not preventing accidents. And the more police indulge in sneakiness to maximise fines, the less confidence the public will have in their road safety programme."

I'm sure who said this, but it says it all really doesn't it ?

Dr Terry

[Burnout]

The emphasis is to create paranoia in the minds of motorists to keep general road speeds down. The money is 'chicken feed' compared to the paranoia created in the minds of motorists and media/forums/FB/Twatter etc..

[2011G6E]

What's it's bred is a generation of motorists who are speedo-starers...afraid to drift even a kilometer over the limit for fear of heavy fines.

And for the idiots who claim they "don't need to watch their speedo to know the speed", no one can judge a couple of kph either way, and in some jurisdictions a K or two can mean the difference between going on your way and going on your way with an emptier wallet and less points. Modern cars are quiet and have finely graduated speedo's...in most cars the width of the needle can be the difference between a fine and no fine. Not even a world class Formula One driver could tell you if a car was going 58, 60, or 62 without looking at the speedo. The difference becomes harder to pick the faster you go.

People have been relentlessly hammered with what used to be called "The Great Road Safety Lie"...that speed is the only...only...thing that matters, and if you never speed, you will never die and never have an accident. This has bred another type of driver...one who thinks they don't have to put any more concentration into driving than watching the speedo and keeping under the speed limit...and that's it. Nothing more is important and driving doesn't really require much concentration or thought.

Watch your speed...don't go one kph over...and that's it.

[adumb]

I honestly think driving is a bit beyond quite a few members of the population and add this to peoples "spread to taste" attitude towards road rules and its not a good mix.

[adumb]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

What's it's bred is a generation of motorists who are speedo-starers...afraid to drift even a kilometer over the limit for fear of heavy fines.

And for the idiots who claim they "don't need to watch their speedo to know the speed", no one can judge a couple of kph either way, and in some jurisdictions a K or two can mean the difference between going on your way and going on your way with an emptier wallet and less points. Modern cars are quiet and have finely graduated speedo's...in most cars the width of the needle can be the difference between a fine and no fine. Not even a world class Formula One driver could tell you if a car was going 58, 60, or 62 without looking at the speedo. The difference becomes harder to pick the faster you go.

People have been relentlessly hammered with what used to be called "The Great Road Safety Lie"...that speed is the only...only...thing that matters, and if you never speed, you will never die and never have an accident. This has bred another type of driver...one who thinks they don't have to put any more concentration into driving than watching the speedo and keeping under the speed limit...and that's it. Nothing more is important and driving doesn't really require much concentration or thought.

Watch your speed...don't go one kph over...and that's it.

I don't disagree with some of your points, however for example you got fined for 105kph in a 100 zone by a mobile camera. They would have taken on 3kph (tolerance) which means you would have been sitting on 108kph. I think most people could tell the difference between 100 and 108?

[joolz]

Originally Posted by adumb

I don't disagree with some of your points, however for example you got fined for 105kph in a 100 zone by a mobile camera. They would have taken on 3kph (tolerance) which means you would have been sitting on 108kph. I think most people could tell the difference between 100 and 108?

In Victoria mobile cameras have a 3 km/h tolerance while fixed cameras have a 2 km/h tolerance. In other words walking pace over the limit and your done!

[Express]

Originally Posted by adumb

I don't disagree with some of your points, however for example you got fined for 105kph in a 100 zone by a mobile camera. They would have taken on 3kph (tolerance) which means you would have been sitting on 108kph. I think most people could tell the difference between 100 and 108?

Plus many manufacturers build a 3km/h safety buffer into their speedos.

[JAJH]

It has always amazed me that motorists only get a small margin of tolerance with speeding fines yet manufacturers don't make cars with same minimal tolerances. The Australian Design Rules allow tolerances of + or - 10kmh. Here's an interesting article taken directly from the RACQ website relating to speedo tolerances. How can we be expected to accurately stick to the speed limit when the ADRS are allowed a tolerance of 10khm?



Speedo regulations in Australia

Before 1 July 2006

The accuracy of vehicle speedos is covered by Australian Design Rule (ADR) 18.

For vehicles manufactured before July 2006:

An accuracy of +/- 10 percent of the vehicle’s true speed was needed when a vehicle was travelling above 40km/h. This means if a vehicle was travelling at a true speed of 100km/h, the speedo was allowed to indicate a reading between 90km/h and 110km/h.
An odometer accuracy of +/- 4 percent was also a requirement.
After 1 July 2006

From 1 July 2006 all newly introduced models of a vehicle available on the market must comply with ADR 18/03:
The speedo must not indicate a speed less than the vehicle’s true speed or a speed greater than the vehicle’s true speed by an amount more than 10 percent plus 4 km/h.
The speedo must always read 'safe', meaning the vehicle's true speed must not be higher than the speed indicated by the speedo. So if a vehicle travelling at a true speed of 100km/h, the speedo must read between 100km/h and 114km/h. Another way of looking at this is if the speedo indicates a speed of 100km/h, the vehicle's true speed must be between 87.3 km/h and 100km/h.
There is now no requirement to have an odometer, and so there is no accuracy requirement.
From 1 July 2007

All newly manufactured vehicles (excluding mopeds) must comply with these rules.

This change was made to align Australian vehicle rules with those already in place in Europe. Note that some maufacturers chose to comply with the new rule before 1 July 2006, this is acceptable.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by JAJH

It has always amazed me that motorists only get a small margin of tolerance with speeding fines yet manufacturers don't make cars with same minimal tolerances. The Australian Design Rules allow tolerances of + or - 10kmh. Here's an interesting article taken directly from the RACQ website relating to speedo tolerances. How can we be expected to accurately stick to the speed limit when the ADRS are allowed a tolerance of 10khm?



Speedo regulations in Australia

Before 1 July 2006

The accuracy of vehicle speedos is covered by Australian Design Rule (ADR) 18.

For vehicles manufactured before July 2006:

An accuracy of +/- 10 percent of the vehicle’s true speed was needed when a vehicle was travelling above 40km/h. This means if a vehicle was travelling at a true speed of 100km/h, the speedo was allowed to indicate a reading between 90km/h and 110km/h.
An odometer accuracy of +/- 4 percent was also a requirement.
After 1 July 2006

From 1 July 2006 all newly introduced models of a vehicle available on the market must comply with ADR 18/03:
The speedo must not indicate a speed less than the vehicle’s true speed or a speed greater than the vehicle’s true speed by an amount more than 10 percent plus 4 km/h.
The speedo must always read 'safe', meaning the vehicle's true speed must not be higher than the speed indicated by the speedo. So if a vehicle travelling at a true speed of 100km/h, the speedo must read between 100km/h and 114km/h. Another way of looking at this is if the speedo indicates a speed of 100km/h, the vehicle's true speed must be between 87.3 km/h and 100km/h.
There is now no requirement to have an odometer, and so there is no accuracy requirement.
From 1 July 2007

All newly manufactured vehicles (excluding mopeds) must comply with these rules.

This change was made to align Australian vehicle rules with those already in place in Europe. Note that some maufacturers chose to comply with the new rule before 1 July 2006, this is acceptable.

Thank you
A very little known section of the ADRS...or more accurately a very misunderstood part of the ADR's.
People have been led to believe one of two things about your speedometer...either that it's absolutely dead on accurate because "it's a new car and surely they can make an accurate speedo", or that they have a "10% + or -" on it. Both are completely wrong.

Your speedo will indeed be dead on, 100% accurate...for one very short period of it's life. That's when your tyres have worn down to exactly the right diameter to suit the ratio that feeds the speedo.

Three personal examples:
On my Celica, that time has come and gone. With the factory alloys and factory sized tyres, it read slow...by GPS an indicated 100 was actually about 105. Then I fitted '82 Supra wheels to it, with slightly different sized tyres. It was then exactly dead on accurate. Now they tyres are wearing down it's starting to get out. The thing is that I would have thought I was being a good little citizen and not speeding...but I was.
Our 2011 Triton: with factory sized worn down tyres, it was way out...an indicated 100 was only 90. We fitted larger tyres to the factory rims, and the speedo was dead on for ages. Now it's starting to get a little out as the deep tread starts to wear down.
My 2008 Suzuki GSX1400 was hopeless...when I bought it I wondered why I kept getting overtaken and it "felt" so slow. I mounted a GPS to the bars and found that an indicated 100 was really only 88kph! I fitted new tyres...in standard size but better rubber...and it's still way out, by at least 10kph, more as speed rises. I have tiny yellow dots of paint on the speedo glass marking an actual 80, 90, 100, and 110. An actual 100 is an indicated 110, 110 is an indicated 120.

The thing is, they could easily be wrong the other way. Yes yes yes, I know the ADR's say it "must" read on the "plus" side for safety...but really do you trust each and every one of the speedos made all around the world every year to be accurate?

This was the basis...founded firmly in reality...of the old ADR rule of "10% plus OR minus"...it allowed for manufacturing tolerances, tyre wear, different environmental conditions, and just plain mechanical wear on the mechanism of the speedo itself.
Now they are trusting manufacturers to make them only read in one particular way...an instrument that is pretty complicated, but certainly not of scientific accuracy in any way shape or form.

However, we are being measured by instruments which, while still fallible, can measure speed far more accurately than our cable and wire and gear driven speedos can...it's an unfair advantage.

It's exactly like someone measuring the temperature of something with an old mercury thermometer which is accurate to 0.2 of a degree, and then someone criticizing them for not being as accurate as they are with their brand new digital electronic thermometer accurate down to 0.01 of a degree...

An allowance must be made..."zero tolerance" just means "we aren't making enough money so have to close the tolerance to catch more people". Saying to the public (as Queensland police said some time ago) that it is "up to you to ensure your car speedo is accurate at all times" is just ridiculous...who pays for the expensive calibration? "Just buy a GPS"...why should you have to? Your car is factory fitted with a speed measuring device...and that should be that. No one should be able to walk up later and say "You were wrong to trust it".

As I said, the whole system is rotten from top to bottom...and nothing will change.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Lockitupoz

We have a road here in Forster - it was a 100 kph limit 10 years ago, then it went to 90 now it is at 80kph limit. In the past 10 years this road has been widened, straightened and resurfaced! Why is it less safe now than 10 years ago?

And those bastard mobile camera cars, they setup in a 50 k zone where it is downhill and leading up to a 60 zone. In 20 years there hasn't been an accident in the area - but now it is being heavily policed for dangerous speeds as if it is a "black spot".

How about policing speeds in known black spots, instead of safe areas. If it was about safety not cash, this would win my vote.

Cheers
JD

So you honestly believe there hasn't been an accident in 20 years at or near your mystery location? Not a single one?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Thank you
A very little known section of the ADRS...or more accurately a very misunderstood part of the ADR's.
People have been led to believe one of two things about your speedometer...either that it's absolutely dead on accurate because "it's a new car and surely they can make an accurate speedo", or that they have a "10% + or -" on it. Both are completely wrong.

Your speedo will indeed be dead on, 100% accurate...for one very short period of it's life. That's when your tyres have worn down to exactly the right diameter to suit the ratio that feeds the speedo.

Three personal examples:
On my Celica, that time has come and gone. With the factory alloys and factory sized tyres, it read slow...by GPS an indicated 100 was actually about 105. Then I fitted '82 Supra wheels to it, with slightly different sized tyres. It was then exactly dead on accurate. Now they tyres are wearing down it's starting to get out. The thing is that I would have thought I was being a good little citizen and not speeding...but I was.
Our 2011 Triton: with factory sized worn down tyres, it was way out...an indicated 100 was only 90. We fitted larger tyres to the factory rims, and the speedo was dead on for ages. Now it's starting to get a little out as the deep tread starts to wear down.
My 2008 Suzuki GSX1400 was hopeless...when I bought it I wondered why I kept getting overtaken and it "felt" so slow. I mounted a GPS to the bars and found that an indicated 100 was really only 88kph! I fitted new tyres...in standard size but better rubber...and it's still way out, by at least 10kph, more as speed rises. I have tiny yellow dots of paint on the speedo glass marking an actual 80, 90, 100, and 110. An actual 100 is an indicated 110, 110 is an indicated 120.

The thing is, they could easily be wrong the other way. Yes yes yes, I know the ADR's say it "must" read on the "plus" side for safety...but really do you trust each and every one of the speedos made all around the world every year to be accurate?

This was the basis...founded firmly in reality...of the old ADR rule of "10% plus OR minus"...it allowed for manufacturing tolerances, tyre wear, different environmental conditions, and just plain mechanical wear on the mechanism of the speedo itself.
Now they are trusting manufacturers to make them only read in one particular way...an instrument that is pretty complicated, but certainly not of scientific accuracy in any way shape or form.

However, we are being measured by instruments which, while still fallible, can measure speed far more accurately than our cable and wire and gear driven speedos can...it's an unfair advantage.

It's exactly like someone measuring the temperature of something with an old mercury thermometer which is accurate to 0.2 of a degree, and then someone criticizing them for not being as accurate as they are with their brand new digital electronic thermometer accurate down to 0.01 of a degree...

An allowance must be made..."zero tolerance" just means "we aren't making enough money so have to close the tolerance to catch more people". Saying to the public (as Queensland police said some time ago) that it is "up to you to ensure your car speedo is accurate at all times" is just ridiculous...who pays for the expensive calibration? "Just buy a GPS"...why should you have to? Your car is factory fitted with a speed measuring device...and that should be that. No one should be able to walk up later and say "You were wrong to trust it".

As I said, the whole system is rotten from top to bottom...and nothing will change.

With new tyres on my Focus it reads 97km/h by GPS at 100 on Speedo, now its 94.

120 indicated is actually 112 on GPS.

But at 60 indicated its 59 on GPS?

Odd.

[Kingsley]

There's a mobile camera van that sets up at various times daily on Cessnock Rd Gillieston Heights NSW. I usually pass it everyday either taking my son to or from school.
Out of curiosity I pulled over one morning and politely asked how the RTA determine where to set up considering how often they often concentrate on this one area. The operator said data is correlated from combining the RTA and NSW Police figures in relation to the highest amount of speeding fines issued for their district and the vans are distributed accordingly. He just goes where they tell him. So I rang the local highway patrol who said that they don't regularly patrol that road as they don't normally catch too many people for speeding in comparison to other areas. As for RTA and Police correlating data he had never heard of it though it was possible. He also said that he knew the van operated on that road regularly but in his opinion he didn't agree that pinging motorists for a couple of clicks over the speed limit was necessary as it was just plain revenue raising.

[csv8]

Whats more dangerous ? 2km/hr over the limit or driving past a speed camera drunk ,high on drugs and texting?? 2km/hr isnt dangerous but the other 3 are far more dangerous, but wont get picked up.BUT police on the road would pick them up....

[Trevor 57]

One of the reasons for the cameras' is to enforce a change of culture and it is working, just travel the Hume Highway and into other States and you will see the Victorians are the majority sitting on the speed limit being overtaken (at speed) by the locals

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

This is patently untrue !

How can you say that inappropriate speed limits are irrelevant ?

There are many roads around Sydney that had much higher speed limits years ago. Back when the roads were not much better than single lane goat tracks & cars had crap steering & brakes.

Move forward now to 2015 where even the cheapest 4-cyl shopping trollies have ABS & stability control, with good brakes & good steering (relatively speaking). That single lane goat track is now a 4 to 6 lane arterial, well-lit & beautifully surfaced, kerbed & guttered. Which part of that includes "the lowest common denominator". Are today's drivers really that much worse ?

The roads which had 45 mph (72.7 km/h) limits, often now have 60, 50 or even 40 km/h limits on them, for no obvious "road safety" reasons. It's far easier to legislate 60 & 40 km speed limits over a blanket area, than actually correct place sensible speed limit signage.

Isn't it funny that the revenue is also substantially greater, by using this method.

Having said that, I notice in recent years, with our new state government, that speed limits along some of the more major arterials or now more uniform, to match the road type. Not that long ago, you could travel along one stretch & go thru 20 or more speed limit changes in a moderately short distance, for no obvious reason.

Dr Terry

Yeah and how many people died on those roads back then? As soon as you leave the nostalgia behind, you'll realise it was carnage.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

One of the reasons for the cameras' is to enforce a change of culture and it is working, just travel the Hume Highway and into other States and you will see the Victorians are the majority sitting on the speed limit being overtaken (at speed) by the locals

These are the same people now who run red lights and if they are going to overtake will do it 1kph faster then the person they're over taking.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Yeah and how many people died on those roads back then? As soon as you leave the nostalgia behind, you'll realise it was carnage.

Nonsense. The roads & the cars were much worse than today's. I've never seen it anywhere reported that the reduction in road toll was a result of decreased speed limits

Several studies have shown that the biggest reduction in the road toll was attributed to RBT & then to seatbelt introduction, along with all the other safety upgrades to cars over the years.

I'm not denying that it was carnage back then, of course it was, but to suggest that reducing speed limits by 10km/h & at the time improving the roads, is a bit silly.

Dr Terry

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Nonsense. The roads & the cars were much worse than today's. I've never seen it anywhere reported that the reduction in road toll was a result of decreased speed limits

Several studies have shown that the biggest reduction in the road toll was attributed to RBT & then to seatbelt introduction, along with all the other safety upgrades to cars over the years.

I'm not denying that it was carnage back then, of course it was, but to suggest that reducing speed limits by 10km/h & at the time improving the roads, is a bit silly.

Dr Terry

Well maybe I took your earlier comment out of context, apologies.

[buggerlugs]

Saw a motorcycle cop on an unmarked grey/brown road bike today with a hand held radar. How long in Qld have bike coppers been unmarked ?

[csv8]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Saw a motorcycle cop on an unmarked grey/brown road bike today with a hand held radar. How long in Qld have bike coppers been unmarked ?

since 2009 .apparently.
Here is a press release from the QLD Police Website. So far spotted booking bikers includes a GSXR1000 and a Speed Triple




Motorcyclists heading to Queensland over the next twelve weeks should be on the lookout for unmarked police motorcycles.

Queensland Police launched a three month-long safety campaign to cut the number of bikers killed on Qld roads on Sunday.

The “All Bust Motorcycle Campaign” would see police use unmarked camera bikes and cars, to catch speeding bikers, in addition to activities using marked vehicles.

Police minister Neil Roberts says the move is necessary after the number of motorcyclists killed on Qld roads hit astronomical proportions in 2009, the highest level since 1984.

Other measures planned for the campaign include the promotion of the Bikesafe scheme, and the launch of a motorcycling-focused website offering riding tips and suggestions on the best routes to ride.

John Pavett, inspector of Qld Police, says motorcyclists are attracted to Qld in their droves by low traffic levels and good biking roads.

“This high volume of motorcyclists using Qld roads increases the possibility of poor riding standards, and subsequently the number of injury road traffic collisions.”
https://netrider.net.au/threads/qld-...e-road.108557/

[steve.zissou]

Originally Posted by You Yangs

Trev wins at the internet today, close thread now.
Simple problem solving is remove the root cause, if you don't speed then you remove the root cause of the problem.
Problem solved means nothing to complain about, only people who complain about speed cameras are the ones who get caught!!!

wrong !!!!!

because we seem to be following down the same solcialist utopia path that has done so much for spain/ greece and italy. we will probably do the same regarding drivers that slow down too much
http://thenewspaper.com/rlc/news.asp?ID=3523

I'd like to see the adds for fines that target people that slow down too much like spain.

Speeding kills, every km counts * except in circumstances where it doesn't and going to slow kills.

Then after that doesnt work they will probably just fine every body an average of $300 a year in anticipation of them speeding

I like driving in the US - 20 km over the limit was no problem and traffic flow was great. Every one wasnt riding every one else's **** because they want to go 1 km/h faster like they do in melbourne (although every single person seems to text on their phone)

[csv8]

Minions!!!