Powershift data logs and P0715

[Mondaveo]

This will be a long post, so my thanks in advance to those who read to the end.

The story so far: In December last year the car experienced a temporary loss of drive with "Transmission Limited Function" message. Ford reported there were no trouble codes stored, so were unable to provide a diagnosis. The car also occasionally exhibits weird transmission shifting behaviour usually in 1st/2nd gear, such as harsh engagement (shunting) and momentary disengagement (hesitation or balking) of drive.

In April I bought an OBDLink MX and have been using FORScan on my smartphone to stream and log live data from the car's computer as I drive around. I wanted to be prepared in case the car ever breaks down again so I can see exactly what the error state is. I was also hoping that examining the data might give some insight into the health of the transmission sensors which have been known to fail causing the aberrant shifting behaviour as a symptom. I'm not sure if I've proven anything yet but I wanted to share the following for discussion.

I've been mainly concerned with logging the following PIDs (Parameter IDs) exposed via the TCM:

• RPM is engine speed, naturally in revs per minute.
• GISS is the Gearbox Input Shaft Speed sensor value and is also in revs/min. This is presumably the shaft driven by the engine through the clutch(es).
• VSS is the gearbox output speed sensor value and is in km/h.
• GEAR_SEL is the currently selected gearbox gear which I've normalised to the range -2 thru 6 (0 for neutral, -1 for reverse, -2 for the explicit error value anything unexpected).
• TGT_GEAR is "Target Gear" which I expected would be the value of the gear that the electronic brain is anticipating will be requested next.

  ○ We are told one of the features of a dual-clutch transmission is it always has two gears selected, but only one clutch engaged; by pre-selecting the next gear on the other clutch, changes can be lightning fast as it just swaps clutches. In practice though, this PID seems to generally sit at "GEAR_SEL+1" (and even goes to Reverse when the current gear reaches 6th!), preceding the current gear just a little bit, so I'm not too sure what he represents.
  ○ It could be that Powershift, being less of a bleeding-edge performance product, just omits prediction algorithms for downshifting. Certainly in most driving it's only the upshifts you'll notice, as downshifts are usually masked by braking.

I've been smooshing this all together into composite graphs like the one below. This shows a typical trace of accelerating from (near-)stationary to 80kph, maintaining that speed for a bit, and then braking back down to about 20 kph.



At the leftmost end, GISS starts off low (not quite zero as we were crawling in traffic) and rises to meet RPM as the clutch is fed in. You can see the characteristic sawtooth pattern of GISS and RPM as the car shifts through the gears.

Between shifts, GISS matches fairly closely to RPM but I've noticed at 100kph and below there is a discrepancy of about 10-20 revs/min when the transmission is loaded. When I'm accelerating or maintaining speed, engine RPM will be 10-20 higher than GISS, and when coasting and engine braking GISS will go 10-20 above RPM. You can just about see this on my chart, at the areas labelled Accelerating and Coasting. When I get up to 110kph, GISS and RPM become closely matched. It seems to me that there isn't enough clamping force in the clutch(es) at speeds below 110kph (or more accurately, the corresponding RPM which is almost 2000) and it's slipping the clutch. Does this seem like it could be a concern? I've read that an increase in viscosity of the transmission fluid (from impurities or wrong type) can cause the clutch to slip, but my car is only halfway to its next change (done at 60K, odo 93K). I'm not happy with the thought that it's constantly slipping though so should I be considering an early service?

Apart from the GISS and RPM, there's no aberrant behaviour in the example above. Generally, the Powershift works perfectly for me 95+% of the time. When it is acting up, what I get is stumbling and lurching behaviour, like any of the following: not in gear when it's needed; drops out of gear momentarily; goes for the wrong gear; shunts roughly into gear.

So the Sunday before last, the car had a very rough day. In six trips, I had gearbox events across three of them.

On the third trip of the day, while moving off from the lights on an uphill incline among very slow-moving traffic, the car suddenly disengages drive causing the engine to free rev. It then engaged again abruptly; hard enough to chirp the front tyres under power. I've had it happen before, but this was the most uncomfortable.

I looked through the logged data and found what I believe is the record from that event, you can see the RPM spike and a bump in the VSS.



On the fifth trip, it seemed to be mis-shifting at every second intersection and traffic light down the main street. I gathered up what I believe to be the three instances I could feel. They are marked by a spike in the RPM and flattening of VSS as the gearbox disengages, followed by RPM going squiggly as it re-engages drive in a usually un-graceful manner.



I can't see any evidence in this for why it happens. I thought perhaps I would see GISS going squiggly confirming the sensor going haywire. About all I can say is that it seems unrelated to actual gear changes.

Speaking of the sensor, at day's end it had thrown the diagnostic trouble code P0715 to the TCM. Interestingly enough, I know from my scan log that it threw the code during the sixth trip when, as far as I was concerned, it was actually changing gears just fine.

(OK) [23:22:07.308] Connection to vehicle has been established
(OK) [23:22:10.187] TCM - Transmission Control Module

(OK) [23:45:54.085] Connection to vehicle has been established
(OK) [23:45:56.192] TCM - Transmission Control Module
(WARN) [23:45:57.472] DTCs in TCM: P0715:2F-26

===TCM DTC P0715:2F-26===
Code: P0715 - Turbine/Input Shaft Speed Sensor A Circuit

Additional Fault Symptom:
- Signal Erratic

Status:
- DTC Present at Time of Request
- Malfunction Indicator Lamp is Off for this DTC

Module: Transmission Control Module
===END TCM===

This is the third time since April that I've seen (and cleared) the P0715. I'm wondering at what point I need to consider this a problem that'll need to be $$$rectified$$$?

Thoughts?

[rondeo]

Oops!

[rondeo]

The first thing I would do is have the FLUID LEVEL checked.
How to check the fluid level:

Car level. Remove LH front wheel and restore level. Get gbox to 35 deg C.
Go through all selector positions 20s each. Place container and remove level check plug. Allow fluid (if any) to flow until it slows to a drip. Check fluid for contamination. Add fluid in 250ml lots until fluid flows again and slows to a drip. Replace plugs etc.

It's not a difficult DIY job. Just the details of the procedure need to be known. A mechanic should be able to do it in 30min? Unless there is evidence of particle contamination there should be no need to change the gbox fluid.

That's where I'd start, then see.

Probable reason for wrong fluid level: human error.

[rondeo]

I usually have 'hill start assist' turned off. I wonder if it can cause bad behaviour when crawling uphill.

[Mondaveo]

Linking for reference:
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11442105

Okay, I think I can try doing the fluid level check, or getting a mechanic to do it for me (depends on the price difference after buying fluid). Can the car remain on the ground while I do it? Is there a proper way of checking that it's level?

I doubt the Hill Launch Assist could have much to do with it; my understanding is it just holds the brake for you (so you don't need to keep holding the foot pedal) until you start moving.

----
So I discovered today that it seems the car is throwing P0715 more frequently than I suspected, and also that it apparently sometimes (often?) clears the code on its own. I didn't actually recall clearing the P0715:2F-26 myself, but figured that I must have.

Today drove to the shop, and on arrival saw it had stored P0715:2F-27. After restarting the code was gone, but then after arriving at the mall found it had P0715:2F-2E. I think that one must have cleared as well, as now I have P0715:2F-28, but I think this one must have persisted as it says "Previously set DTC".

I think I'm heading toward the inevitable

[rondeo]

If the fluid level is checked it's a good idea to measure what comes out and goes in so you know if there was an issue there.

Doing the check yourself is maybe a bit harder than I said. You need to be able to safely support the car at the right level with a wheel off. I park the car on a known level surface and put a circular bubble level somewhere on the car, then jack to keep the bubble level.

Doing it with one jack is potentially dangerous, one mistake with the footbrake and you're lurching forward.
It's easy for me because I use two trolley jacks up front and lift the rear as well. And I've plenty of time to muck around.

It does sound like a new TCM if you are getting P0715. That's the Ford manual injunction anyway. I suggested checking fluid level as a first step in general with gbox issues, but seems to me less likely to be connected with the P0715.

That's my googling and guessing anyway.

[rondeo]

On the ground fluid level check:

Warm up the car.
Park on a level surface.
Connect to Forscan and check temp is between 35 and 45 deg.
Go through the gears, 20 sec each.
Raise LH front and remove wheel.
Lower the car to a stand (level).
Place container under level check plug.
Remove air filter housing.
Remove filler plug.
Remove level check plug (2ft ext. handy).
Allow check bore to drain to a drip.
Add fluid in 250ml lots until flow becomes a drip.
Replace plugs etc.

This check should only be necessary if there are doubts about the gbox performance, or the fluid is being changed.

I found the most annoying thing is removing the airbox.

I'm planning to get rid of this annoyance by using a custom made funnel .....

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

This will be a long post, so my thanks in advance to those who read to the end.

The story so far: In December last year the car experienced a temporary loss of drive with "Transmission Limited Function" message. Ford reported there were no trouble codes stored, so were unable to provide a diagnosis. The car also occasionally exhibits weird transmission shifting behaviour usually in 1st/2nd gear, such as harsh engagement (shunting) and momentary disengagement (hesitation or balking) of drive.

In April I bought an OBDLink MX and have been using FORScan on my smartphone to stream and log live data from the car's computer as I drive around. I wanted to be prepared in case the car ever breaks down again so I can see exactly what the error state is. I was also hoping that examining the data might give some insight into the health of the transmission sensors which have been known to fail causing the aberrant shifting behaviour as a symptom. I'm not sure if I've proven anything yet but I wanted to share the following for discussion.

I've been mainly concerned with logging the following PIDs (Parameter IDs) exposed via the TCM:

• RPM is engine speed, naturally in revs per minute.
• GISS is the Gearbox Input Shaft Speed sensor value and is also in revs/min. This is presumably the shaft driven by the engine through the clutch(es).
• VSS is the gearbox output speed sensor value and is in km/h.
• GEAR_SEL is the currently selected gearbox gear which I've normalised to the range -2 thru 6 (0 for neutral, -1 for reverse, -2 for the explicit error value anything unexpected).
• TGT_GEAR is "Target Gear" which I expected would be the value of the gear that the electronic brain is anticipating will be requested next.

  ○ We are told one of the features of a dual-clutch transmission is it always has two gears selected, but only one clutch engaged; by pre-selecting the next gear on the other clutch, changes can be lightning fast as it just swaps clutches. In practice though, this PID seems to generally sit at "GEAR_SEL+1" (and even goes to Reverse when the current gear reaches 6th!), preceding the current gear just a little bit, so I'm not too sure what he represents.
  ○ It could be that Powershift, being less of a bleeding-edge performance product, just omits prediction algorithms for downshifting. Certainly in most driving it's only the upshifts you'll notice, as downshifts are usually masked by braking.

I've been smooshing this all together into composite graphs like the one below. This shows a typical trace of accelerating from (near-)stationary to 80kph, maintaining that speed for a bit, and then braking back down to about 20 kph.

image

At the leftmost end, GISS starts off low (not quite zero as we were crawling in traffic) and rises to meet RPM as the clutch is fed in. You can see the characteristic sawtooth pattern of GISS and RPM as the car shifts through the gears.

Between shifts, GISS matches fairly closely to RPM but I've noticed at 100kph and below there is a discrepancy of about 10-20 revs/min when the transmission is loaded. When I'm accelerating or maintaining speed, engine RPM will be 10-20 higher than GISS, and when coasting and engine braking GISS will go 10-20 above RPM. You can just about see this on my chart, at the areas labelled Accelerating and Coasting. When I get up to 110kph, GISS and RPM become closely matched. It seems to me that there isn't enough clamping force in the clutch(es) at speeds below 110kph (or more accurately, the corresponding RPM which is almost 2000) and it's slipping the clutch. Does this seem like it could be a concern? I've read that an increase in viscosity of the transmission fluid (from impurities or wrong type) can cause the clutch to slip, but my car is only halfway to its next change (done at 60K, odo 93K). I'm not happy with the thought that it's constantly slipping though so should I be considering an early service?

Apart from the GISS and RPM, there's no aberrant behaviour in the example above. Generally, the Powershift works perfectly for me 95+% of the time. When it is acting up, what I get is stumbling and lurching behaviour, like any of the following: not in gear when it's needed; drops out of gear momentarily; goes for the wrong gear; shunts roughly into gear.

So the Sunday before last, the car had a very rough day. In six trips, I had gearbox events across three of them.

On the third trip of the day, while moving off from the lights on an uphill incline among very slow-moving traffic, the car suddenly disengages drive causing the engine to free rev. It then engaged again abruptly; hard enough to chirp the front tyres under power. I've had it happen before, but this was the most uncomfortable.

I looked through the logged data and found what I believe is the record from that event, you can see the RPM spike and a bump in the VSS.

image

On the fifth trip, it seemed to be mis-shifting at every second intersection and traffic light down the main street. I gathered up what I believe to be the three instances I could feel. They are marked by a spike in the RPM and flattening of VSS as the gearbox disengages, followed by RPM going squiggly as it re-engages drive in a usually un-graceful manner.

image

I can't see any evidence in this for why it happens. I thought perhaps I would see GISS going squiggly confirming the sensor going haywire. About all I can say is that it seems unrelated to actual gear changes.

Speaking of the sensor, at day's end it had thrown the diagnostic trouble code P0715 to the TCM. Interestingly enough, I know from my scan log that it threw the code during the sixth trip when, as far as I was concerned, it was actually changing gears just fine.



This is the third time since April that I've seen (and cleared) the P0715. I'm wondering at what point I need to consider this a problem that'll need to be $$$rectified$$$?

Thoughts?

Fair bit to digest there!

Just to clarify the picture on speed sensors using what written information I have:

There are three speed sensors which are part of the TCM. They work on the Hall effect.

P0715 relates to the first, which is on the clutch drum housing, i.e. before the clutches. As Manchu has shown in photo, it is on the end of a long wire going to the TCM.

The second is the sensor for shaft 1 (clutch 1, gears 1,3,5 and R).

The third is the sensor for shaft 2
(clutch 2, gears 2,4,6).

According to one of the manuals the first sensor signal serves as a variable for calculating the slip of the clutches. Looks like P0841/6 'Torque plausibility failure' for clutches 1 and 2 respectively might be the DTC for slipping clutch?

Not much help I know, just what I'm reading.

Ford diagnostic equipment needed?

[tce]

I had a similar problem with my 2012 on the odd time at roundaboutsome it would drive like a Lerner and when travelling at random speeds ( above 60ish) it would just hang out in no gear then (thinking about it) it would engage a gear. It ended up been a speed sensor in the gear box (came up with gearbox malfunction light) and was replaced under warranty.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by rondeo

Fair bit to digest there!

Just to clarify the picture on speed sensors using what written information I have:

There are three speed sensors which are part of the TCM. They work on the Hall effect.

P0715 relates to the first, which is on the clutch drum housing, i.e. before the clutches. As Manchu has shown in photo, it is on the end of a long wire going to the TCM.

The second is the sensor for shaft 1 (clutch 1, gears 1,3,5 and R).

The third is the sensor for shaft 2
(clutch 2, gears 2,4,6).

According to one of the manuals the first sensor signal serves as a variable for calculating the slip of the clutches. Looks like P0841/6 'Torque plausibility failure' for clutches 1 and 2 respectively might be the DTC for slipping clutch?

Not much help I know, just what I'm reading.

Ford diagnostic equipment needed?

Thanks, it is interesting to know. I have wondered why in FORScan there is only one GISS reading exposed on the TCM, given there are two shafts. I had thought it would allow me to see the raw values of what you say are in fact three sensors, but it doesn't. Presumably there's some aggregation going on to give the one GISS reading?

Originally Posted by tce

I had a similar problem with my 2012 on the odd time at roundaboutsome it would drive like a Lerner and when travelling at random speeds ( above 60ish) it would just hang out in no gear then (thinking about it) it would engage a gear. It ended up been a speed sensor in the gear box (came up with gearbox malfunction light) and was replaced under warranty.

Cheers, was that in a Falcon or Mondeo? From what I've read around the Internet, it's the same across a wide range of makes and models. P0715 = gearbox input sensor. Some people report DIY replacing their sensor and fixing the issue for under $100; unfortunately, the Getrag DCT in Mondeo is all but unserviceable with parts and labour running to thousands of dollars as we've seen via a few members of this board.




I'm in two minds of how to progress on this (assuming the car remains drivable and doesn't get worse).

Take it to Ford dealer now with the P0715 stored, tell them what I've observed, ask them to diagnose/confirm and quote repair.

Or continue to monitor and wait till its scheduled service time in October, take it to Ford dealer with P0715 stored, and either ask them to investigate or maybe even see if they pick it up and offer a quote for repair.

In either case I'd likely then be trying to win concessions from Ford to minimise the repair cost, probably by invoking Australian Consumer Law that the car isn't fit for purpose as it should last a reasonable amount of time - usually quoted as 10 years for transmission - and is exacerbated by the fact the design clearly doesn't allow for repairs to be done economically.

Any chances besides none and Buckley's?

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Thanks, it is interesting to know. I have wondered why in FORScan there is only one GISS reading exposed on the TCM, given there are two shafts. I had thought it would allow me to see the raw values of what you say are in fact three sensors, but it doesn't. Presumably there's some aggregation going on to give the one GISS reading?

This can get a bit confusing.

Here's how I think it goes ATM:

Forscan has RPM, GISS, VSS.

The first speed sensor is detecting the engine output speed via the clutch housing. That's RPM. But in the P0715 description the words 'input shaft' are used, so a terminology issue.

The other two speed sensors are detecting the two gearbox input shaft speeds, which are driven by clutches 1 & 2. These are coaxial shafts.

There are also two gearbox output shafts, the ATSG manual shows input shaft 1 speed sensor being read 'via output shaft 2'. I suspect that might be Forscan's VSS, making GISS input shaft 2 speed (via output shaft 2). One of these shafts will be freewheeling depending on the gear selected.

So ATM I'd say P0715 refers to a fault in the RPM (aka 'input shaft') sensing system, the sensor for which is dangling in Manchu's photo.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by rondeo

This can get a bit confusing.

Here's how I think it goes ATM:

Forscan has RPM, GISS, VSS.

The first speed sensor is detecting the engine output speed via the clutch housing. That's RPM. But in the P0715 description the words 'input shaft' are used, so a terminology issue.

The other two speed sensors are detecting the two gearbox input shaft speeds, which are driven by clutches 1 & 2. These are coaxial shafts.

There are also two gearbox output shafts, the ATSG manual shows input shaft 1 speed sensor being read 'via output shaft 2'. I suspect that might be Forscan's VSS, making GISS input shaft 2 speed (via output shaft 2). One of these shafts will be freewheeling depending on the gear selected.

So ATM I'd say P0715 refers to a fault in the RPM (aka 'input shaft') sensing system, the sensor for which is dangling in Manchu's photo.

Ah, thank you my man! That changes the interpretation of my graphs and could be a breakthrough. If input sensor = "RPM" then I should see any evidence of the erratic signal on that line, rather than the line for "GISS" as I'd thought. And indeed I do have a squiggly trace for "RPM" in many instances where the gearbox shifted awkwardly. I had attributed that as a result of changing engine load with the clutch dis/engaging but it looks like it could be the evidence I was seeking.

The interesting thing now would be to compare the "RPM" exposed by the TCM with a recording of the actual RPM at the engine (ECU?). Unfortunately I don't think FORScan allows me to live stream from two different modules at once...

(BTW, I think you mean Bundy's photo?)

[manchu]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

(BTW, I think you mean Bundy's photo?)

definitely not my photo.

[rondeo]

Excuse me, Bundy's photo.

Also I wrote:

'There are also two gearbox output shafts, the ATSG manual shows input shaft 1 speed sensor being read 'via output shaft 2'. I suspect that might be Forscan's VSS, making GISS input shaft 2 speed (via output shaft 2). One of these shafts will be freewheeling depending on the gear selected.'

which should read:

'There are also two gearbox output shafts, the ATSG manual shows input shaft 1 speed sensor being read 'via output shaft 2'. I suspect that might be Forscan's VSS, making GISS input shaft 2 speed. One of these shafts will be freewheeling depending on the gear selected.'

There's a link in this German forum to a pdf which lists the engine speed sensor as a separate part:

http://forum.s-max-club.de/topic/651...haltvorgaenge/

The translation might raise a smile.

The fault could also be in the TCM. I think the only other sensor detecting engine rotation would be the crankshaft sensor, but don't know if it is used for anything else.

[bundybear75]

Unfortunately your car seems to be showing the symptoms that mine did.

I didn't perservere with it - I only had a short window for a warranty claim and my symptoms came on quick and quite severe, almost to the point of being undriveable. After having it assessed at Phillip I struggled to get out of the Woden Valley with it grabbing neutral during changes at each set of lights I stopped at.

There is every possibility that the car was showing signs of it before it was sent to Pickles Auction.....

Good luck with it. I can recommend a good independent transmission center in Phillip if needed. They were great to deal with.

PS pretty sure it was my photo....

[Mondaveo]

Same symptoms as you, manchu, Groomy, Noelcbp here that were all confirmed...

Pretty sure it was a preexisting condition when this car was sold too. The last service docket includes a request to investigate a "hesitation" (nothing found, of course). And during the test drive, it grabbed neutral when I tried to accelerate up the Tuggeranong Parkway on-ramp. I didn't know at the time what that would portend...

The main thing I guess is that it seems not to have come on as severe as others have experienced. One loss of drive, and only occasional misses at shifting (though it's enough to make me tiptoe at every intersection I approach now). Maybe getting a bit worse now that the car is throwing codes, but ATM it's still drivable?...

[manchu]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Pretty sure it was a preexisting condition when this car was sold too. The last service docket includes a request to investigate a "hesitation"

I'm sure mine was pre-existing too. The annoying thing is that the car was still (just) in warranty when it first occurred but instead of getting it fixed the owner just decided to make it someone else's problem. Lucky for me that someone was the dealer I bought it from.

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

The main thing I guess is that it seems not to have come on as severe as others have experienced. One loss of drive, and only occasional misses at shifting (though it's enough to make me tiptoe at every intersection I approach now). Maybe getting a bit worse now that the car is throwing codes, but ATM it's still drivable?...

Yes it's drivable, but it could be very inconvenient or dangerous if you lose drive at the wrong moment.

I had the loss of drive only once in the first ~400km of my ownership so wasn't overly concerned because it sorted itself after a restart. The 2nd time it really crapped itself and left me stranded for hours. Thankfully it was within RACV towing allowance and wasn't with the mrs or kids.

It sounds to me like the issues are regular enough that you need to take action sooner rather than later. Consider also that if you need it fixed you may be waiting some time on parts. It took 1 month for my mechatronic unit to be replaced!

I'd be going straight to Ford for a diagnosis, report and quote for their recommended fix and check part stock. It might cost $150 odd to get this done but once informed you can start battling for it to be fixed for free or share costs under Aust. Consumer Law.

I really don't know how you'll go pulling the ACL card, especially seeing as you bought the car used, but it's worth a shot. A mate had an XR5 focus engine rebuild partly covered out of warranty and that car was bought used so there is some hope.

[rondeo]

6DCT450 Technical service manual pdf:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...lZWhC0cGNg4TbA

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by manchu

Yes it's drivable, but it could be very inconvenient or dangerous if you lose drive at the wrong moment.

(...) Consider also that if you need it fixed you may be waiting some time on parts. It took 1 month for my mechatronic unit to be replaced!

I'd be going straight to Ford for a diagnosis, report and quote for their recommended fix and check part stock. It might cost $150 odd to get this done but once informed you can start battling for it to be fixed for free or share costs under Aust. Consumer Law.

I think you are right on this... the safety issue is very real, considering it's making every intersection feel like a test of confidence; and the one time I lost drive happened while doing 110 on the Hume highway, miles between towns, and with the Mrs and baby on board. The lead time to get parts in is worth bearing in mind too.

Need to wait a bit for cash flow, but will look at getting it in shortly. Do you think I should mention P0715 and the use of a scanner - is the idea of plugging stuff in likely to be touchy or considered hacking?

[manchu]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

. Do you think I should mention P0715 and the use of a scanner - is the idea of plugging stuff in likely to be touchy or considered hacking?

I don't think it'd hurt. When I took mine to ford it was for an independent assessment before the car went back to the dealer (not ford) I bought from. I didn't proceed with full inspection and report because they did a quick scan and found no fault codes. The guy explained that it's pretty much impossible for them to diagnose unless the intermittent fault is currently present because some DTCs aren't stored.

I mentioned I'd ordered an OBD2 scanner and would hopefully have it connected next time problem arose. The only concern he had was that a cheap scanner may not offer as comprehensive diagnosis as theirs. He certainly didn't say not to use it.

[rondeo]

OBD systems are provided for the use of the owner of the vehicle as well as repair technicians.

OBD system is merely reporting to the user what the various sub systems are saying. The user is completely isolated and not privy to the conversation. Such is the case when reading DTCs and PIDs.

In reporting mode OBD cannot alter anything in the vehicle being monitored, let alone stuff up a speed sensing system. OBD is in widespread use by many many vehicle owners users worldwide.

[Mondaveo]

So, the car went in to Ford on Monday and I collected it back Tuesday (yes, they needed it for two days to diagnose this issue).

I had a glimmer of hope going in, because we'd noticed that prior service dockets had "Contract Name: HARRIER" on them... indicating that the car had an extended mechanical warranty. But, I was informed that the warranty stays in the original owner's name and does not travel with the vehicle

Service report says

Connected to IDs computer and found code P0715:2F:28-TCM
Will need to replace input shaft speed sensor as per TSB 14/07

Quote for repair is $3427!!! and 2 days' work.

Bill of materials is below:



Apparently they subtracted three hours' labour charge for that, but I was still completely shocked - going on the basis of other experiences here, I was expecting a total around $2.5K (still too much). I expressed my view that the sum outlined was well above the odds, and that parts should be gratis anyway as the failed sensor was never fit for purpose, but at the moment this is how it is.

Next steps are to find out if any other garages can offer me a better deal, and try pleading my case to FoMoCo...

[Mondaveo]

Additional thoughts and observations:

The charge for the inspection work was $72.50. It's interesting that I paid over $150 last time when they failed to diagnose why the car stopped, but this time when they have a answer (and after keeping the car for two days) the cost is half that. Maybe they felt bad for me?

When the service manager phoned with the outcome, he seemed prepared to put the case through as a warranty claim (as he started going through available dates to follow up). Only when I asked what kind of cost were we looking at did he utter "Oh, it's not in warranty any more". He then said he'd do up a quote and call Harrier to find out if this was the kind of thing they'd cover, but backtracked on the latter once I mentioned I was second owner. Should've kept my mouth shut?

The service quote appears to list two output shaft sensors, but the TSB points to input sensor. I queried this and it was suggested that the different description may be down to an error in their parts database, but "this was definitely the order list for that TSB". I'm not the expert but somehow I'm not confident?

[manchu]

It's sad to say but you've probably got off lightly. It's expensive for what it is but how many other fixes with new parts for this Trans. would be less than ~$3500.

Labor does seem high. My new merchatronic unit was $1070 in labor to fit.

Edit:

Why do you need coolant?

On the upside. My invoice shows 7l Trans fluid and yours is only 6!!

[bundybear75]

Labour seems about right 12 hours at $145 per hour.

Not sure where the other costs work out at. My parts were a fair bit less than that when mine was repaired.

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Additional thoughts and observations:

The service quote appears to list two output shaft sensors, but the TSB points to input sensor. I queried this and it was suggested that the different description may be down to an error in their parts database, but "this was definitely the order list for that TSB". I'm not the expert but somehow I'm not confident?

Input or output? I have attempted to shed a bit of light on sensor nomenclature as used re 6DCT450. I used the service information document linked to below.


There are three speed sensors in the 6DCT450.

1) Reads the engine output shaft speed via the clutch drum. This is the sensor in Bundy's photo, since it has a long wire on it which goes between the tcm and clutch housing. This may also be referred to as an input shaft speed sensor since it reads the input to the complete transmission. Historically referred to as input turbine speed sensor hence the P0715 description. Also referred to a 'damper speed sensor' in Ford service documents.

2) Reads the speed of input shaft 1 connected to clutch 1. It is referred to as an input shaft because it provides the torque from the clutch into the gearbox. The sensor actually reads input shaft 1 speed via output shaft 2. So again potential for confusion dure to terminology.

3) Reads speed of input shaft 2 connected to clutch 2. Again an input shaft because it carries the torque into the gearbox. Input shafts 1 and 2 are concentric, ie one inside the other.

Hope that is correct!

What I have yet to learn is why the Ford service manual says install a new tcm for P0175.

[rondeo]

What doesn't seem right to me is that there was a TSB on the issue, which means Ford knew there was a problem.

It would be interesting to know exactly how many customers have had the same issue, but of course it's a confidential business matter. Let's concentrate on marketing and flashy advertisements . . .
And of course the customer doesn't need any technical information . . .

In utopia the customer gets a DVD with complete technical information pertaining to the product. I'd pay the extra $2 for the disc. How desperate can they be to need a few bucks from selling information?

Sorry for the rant, but may be interesting.

[bundybear75]

I would love to see a copy of Fords TSB 14/07. This got mentioned when I had the problem but they would not provide a copy of the bulletin.

[Mondaveo]

Sorry guys, I should've asked for a copy of the TSB and seen if they'd let me have it. Probably they'd have said no but you never know. I did ask if I could have a copy of all service records for the car, which they couldn't because of privacy issues, but the advisor did seem to be trying to be helpful as he said he'd look into whether there's any way around that.

I rang some independent transmission places today, had a couple of amicable chats (and one not so). Anyway the shop recommended by Bundy were able to indicate a price (based on prior invoice) more around what I was expecting and were even recommended by the guy from another of the shops, so reassuring at least that there's a good operator in town. First though is to try my luck through Ford owner support...

[cobrin]

$3427 I said boy, I said, duck, I said chicken!!!!!!!!!!dayum sons-a-bitches

sorry to hear mondaveo