Covid 19 -

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Heart issues are the key concern. And no long term data that can prove it won’t cause long term issues. Then you can also consider they had to skip animal testing cause the vaccinated animals all died.

Then for many people, especially the young and healthy, it’s taking in the consideration of the minimal risk of actually getting sick and dying from covid, which is only 1 or 2%. Then you probably have people who live in remote areas who really have no reason to get it. Then there are people who don’t want political over reachers like dan andrews telling them what to do. And there are also people who can’t for medical reasons.

I respect their ability to choose for themselves.

Now i sit here and wait for someone to attack me for providing these thoughts. The rabid pro-vaxxers are just as bad as the rabid anti-vaxxers. But they also add a higher level of self righteousness and the inability to believe anything that they didn’t get told from the media. True sheep with the inability to think for themselves.

Overall a balanced post, excepting the info that you have on the vaccines skipping animal testing is just not true. They were not "skipped", but it was not done in the "normal" order.

This became its own truth due to the animal and human trials being done at the same time, due to the unprecedented urgency. The animal trials had been completed when the vaccine was in normal use. So not skipped, and there is no record of "all the animals dying" in the animal trials that were completed.

"the claims that the vaccines had skipped animal trials due to animal death was untrue. None had significant safety issues to report in their respective animal trials, as seen under “5.3 Non-Clinical Studies” sections of the EUAs for Pfizer-BioNTech , Moderna and Johnson & Johnson "

By now, these vaccines have probably had more microscopes on them than any in history. They have passed all tests. You are right, there are still chances that there my be issues way down the track, but there is probably more chance of this with any other medication released in the last 10 years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL2N2NJ1IK

[russellw]

Data valid as at 00:00 GMT October 28th 2021.

Note: As not all Australian States report at the same time, the data below is based on the previous full day reporting.

2,038 new cases for Australia and 27 deaths so the CMR is 1.022% - the first time it has risen in months.

96 new cases and no deaths for NZ so CMR is 0.467%.

The UK had 39,006 cases yesterday and 165 deaths for a CMR of 1.636%.

96,197 new cases in the USA yesterday and 2,319 deaths sees CMR at 1.. Note that the CMR has started to rise again after falling steadily the last two months.

Other notable points:
Global cases pass 246M, the last 1M in 2 days;
North America passes 56M cases;
Asia passes 79M cases;

Ukraine (26,701); and
Russia (40,096)

... recorded new highs; those in blue for the second consecutive day and those in red for a third or more consecutive day.

No countries move above the 90th percentile for the 10 day period while Venezuela and Angola drop below.

[T3rminator]

Some pretty crazy weather happening in Melb as we speak, not sure if other parts of Vic are getting it. Just when regional trips were on the cards.

That is now 3 from 3!!!.....the last 3 major change in restrictions easing has had extreme wild weather the day or 2 before. Arghhhhh!!

Was planning a trip to Mt Macedon tomorrow but looks like it might be wise to cancel.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I'm far from a "rabid pro-vaxxer", but all of the anti-vaxxers that I have met don't have a legitimate medical reason for not getting the vaccine. I realise that there will be a (very minute) percentage of the population with legitimate medical issues regarding the vaccine, but by & large the anti-vax crowd don't.

My general point is that is like the mask issue. We didn't wear mask to stop "getting" Covid, we wore them to stop spreading (i.e. transmitting) the disease.

Being vaccinated not only protects the person receiving the vaccine, it substantially reduces the likely transmission of the virus, most anti-vaxxers don't care about that aspect.

Dr Terry

I wasn’t accusing you mate. But i find the last paragraph to be largely wrong. As you can see with such high vax rates, covid is spreading more than it ever has. A few studies have shown spread with the delta variant with vaxxed and un-vaxxed people shows very little difference between them. And you could also add that considering the vaxxed person is more likely to not show symptoms, they are probably more likely to be walking around spreading it without even knowing it.

Originally Posted by tweeked

Overall a balanced post, excepting the info that you have on the vaccines skipping animal testing is just not true. They were not "skipped", but it was not done in the "normal" order.

This became its own truth due to the animal and human trials being done at the same time, due to the unprecedented urgency. The animal trials had been completed when the vaccine was in normal use. So not skipped, and there is no record of "all the animals dying" in the animal trials that were completed.

"the claims that the vaccines had skipped animal trials due to animal death was untrue. None had significant safety issues to report in their respective animal trials, as seen under “5.3 Non-Clinical Studies” sections of the EUAs for Pfizer-BioNTech , Moderna and Johnson & Johnson "

By now, these vaccines have probably had more microscopes on them than any in history. They have passed all tests. You are right, there are still chances that there my be issues way down the track, but there is probably more chance of this with any other medication released in the last 10 years.

https://www.reuters.com/article/fact...-idUSL2N2NJ1IK

I had seen the US senate hearings where the scientists involved in early testing of mrna vaccines talked about all the animals dying. But if i’m wrong, i stand corrected. It certainly happened at some point of coronavirus vaccine development. It’s why it took many decades to actually make it work. From what i recall they had been working on it since the 50’s. And it continually failed.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I had seen the US senate hearings where the scientists involved in early testing of mrna vaccines talked about all the animals dying. But if i’m wrong, i stand corrected. It certainly happened at some point of coronavirus vaccine development. It’s why it took many decades to actually make it work. From what i recall they had been working on it since the 50’s. And it continually failed.

The first blood transfusions were a 50/50 chance of succeeding or killing the patient, it wasn't until 250 years later when blood types were discovered that transfusions then became comparatively safe.
All new medical breakthroughs fail until they succeed, but we generally don't keep regarding them as unsafe because there were failures in their early development.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I had seen the US senate hearings where the scientists involved in early testing of mrna vaccines talked about all the animals dying. But if i’m wrong, i stand corrected. It certainly happened at some point of coronavirus vaccine development. It’s why it took many decades to actually make it work. From what i recall they had been working on it since the 50’s. And it continually failed.

You are correct on the hearings, it was in Texas. It was a paediatric doctor (who is actually against the vaccine in this case) who answered the question.

It is actually a great example of misleading using evidence (and yes, it happens on both sides, and no, I am not referring to you, but the original person who twisted the evidence). Every mouse that was used in testing did die. When the testing halted (was finished) they were all euthanised.

So you could say without lying that "normal animal testing was skipped and when it was halted , every mouse died." And that gets shared all around the world.

A footnote - there was a Sars vaccine in 2004 that did cause liver issues in ferrets, and it didnt progress because of that. That result has made its way into some of the stories about the latest vaccines, with people initially confusing it as Sars is a result of another coronavirus, but they are totally unrelated.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I just don't get the whole anti-vaccine thing. What is the issue ?

I'm old enough to remember people dying from Polio, Smallpox & Dyptheria. At school we were given vaccines of all types & if we went overseas we had extra shots, otherwise no Visa & therefore no overseas trip. Never heard a single gripe in over 50 years.

Now we have another pandemic & some in the community are taking this strange anti-vax stance. What has changed ? Is it the internet spreading half-truths. Do we have a higher percentage of morons in the community nowadays ? Watch the movie Idiocracy if you're not sure what I'm on about.

Not trying to stir the pot, just asking an honest question.

Dr Terry

You seem to be talking of people getting misinformation from fake news; now is it the internet spreading fake news, MSM or politicians?
With all the garbage being sprouted it is a bit hard to sort through what is fact or fiction.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Itsme

You seem to be talking of people getting misinformation from fake news; now is it the internet spreading fake news, MSM or politicians?
With all the garbage being sprouted it is a bit hard to sort through what is fact or fiction.

MSM and politicians deliberately lie by omission!!

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Itsme

You seem to be talking of people getting misinformation from fake news; now is it the internet spreading fake news, MSM or politicians?
With all the garbage being sprouted it is a bit hard to sort through what is fact or fiction.

I believe that most of the extremist bile that is being sprouted is through social media. The case of Dr Andrew Wakefield being a case in point.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I wasn’t accusing you mate. But i find the last paragraph to be largely wrong. As you can see with such high vax rates, covid is spreading more than it ever has. A few studies have shown spread with the delta variant with vaxxed and un-vaxxed people shows very little difference between them. And you could also add that considering the vaxxed person is more likely to not show symptoms, they are probably more likely to be walking around spreading it without even knowing it.

I believe that the science "jury" is still out on that one. Many legitimate studies have shown that vaccine reduces the spread quite markedly when first administered, but its effect tapers off over several months.

But again, is that a reason not to get vaccinated.

The one undisputed fact is that the chance of dying from Covid is much less for the vaccinated. Also the symptoms are less severe for those who are vaccinated.

Dr Terry

[ford71V8]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-...room/100579998


18yo female and 22yo male.


Funny comments online about being double jabbed

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I believe that most of the extremist bile that is being sprouted is through social media. The case of Dr Andrew Wakefield being a case in point.

Dr Terry

You may well be 100% correct but there are some members here who seem to don't trust what is stated in the MSM which has been mentioned in this topic at times.
I find it amusing as to how many so called experts frequent social media and how the gullible believe them.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I had seen the US senate hearings where the scientists involved in early testing of mrna vaccines talked about all the animals dying.

I wonder how the vegans feel about that, lol.

Plus all the future animal testing for the boosters.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Itsme

You may well be 100% correct but there are some members here who seem to don't trust what is stated in the MSM which has been mentioned in this topic at times.
I find it amusing as to how many so called experts frequent social media and how the gullible believe them.

Isn't there a book about that! By Jonathon Swift.......

Gullible Travels......

[russellw]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I believe that the science "jury" is still out on that one. Many legitimate studies have shown that vaccine reduces the spread quite markedly when first administered, but its effect tapers off over several months.

This is closer to correct than the earlier statement that vaccinations did not help reduce the spread. The increase in numbers wee have seen in various countries that came out of lockdown seems to be largely a case of doing so too soon with target rates of 70% and 'real' rates mostly sub 60%. That leaves an awful lot of unvaccinated people to get exposed and thus case numbers go up.

[MITCHAY]

Well it looks like at least another week of WFH for me. They are giving us an update next week.

I got my slacks and shirts ironed, hair cut, and the car is booked in for a service next week. I'll be ready to go so hopefully from the 8th at the latest.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by russellw

This is closer to correct than the earlier statement that vaccinations did not help reduce the spread. The increase in numbers wee have seen in various countries that came out of lockdown seems to be largely a case of doing so too soon with target rates of 70% and 'real' rates mostly sub 60%. That leaves an awful lot of unvaccinated people to get exposed and thus case numbers go up.

Or if you are dan andrews, just blame the un-vaxxed. Makes a great scape goat. Just ignore the double vaxxed spreading it in greater numbers. Just the shear numbers of them makes it possible. But somehow the vaxxed who spread it aren’t evil like the un-vaxxed are, as the pollies and media want you to believe.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Or if you are dan andrews, just blame the un-vaxxed. Makes a great scape goat. Just ignore the double vaxxed spreading it in greater numbers. Just the shear numbers of them makes it possible. But somehow the vaxxed who spread it aren’t evil like the un-vaxxed are, as the pollies and media want you to believe.

I think it's a bit of both. I believe that case numbers are on the increase because everyone has let their guard down.

Those who are vaxxed believe everything is all of a sudden back to normal, so forget social distancing, no masks, no QR check ins etc.

Add to that the the non-vaxxers don't care two hoots about others, & the numbers of dis-believing numb-nuts who think that the whole Covid thing is a world wide conspiracy, or even worse simply believe that it doesn't exist at all !

Dr Terry

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I think it's a bit of both. I believe that case numbers are on the increase because everyone has let their guard down.
Those who are vaxxed believe everything is all of a sudden back to normal, so forget social distancing, no masks, no QR check ins etc.

Add to that the the non-vaxxers don't care two hoots about others, & the numbers of dis-believing numb-nuts who think that the whole Covid thing is a world wide conspiracy, or even worse simply believe that it doesn't exist at all !

Dr Terry

Where are case numbers on the increase Dr Terry?

[yakcam]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Where are case numbers on the increase Dr Terry?

Everywhere. It's happening daily. Even if there's only 1 new infection tomorrow, it's increased by 1 case from the day before.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by yakcam

Everywhere. It's happening daily. Even if there's only 1 new infection tomorrow, it's increased by 1 case from the day before.

logic fail, one new infection tomorrow then it is one.
down from X hundred the day before.

[Dr Terry]

I think we are being pedantic now.

Any new case is an "increase".

Given that vax level is now at 90% or whatever. The numbers should be thru the floor.

Dr Terry

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I think we are being pedantic now.

Any new case is an "increase".

Given that vax level is now at 90% or whatever. The numbers should be thru the floor.

Dr Terry

Welcome to the thread.

Take a seat.

[MITCHAY]

The problem I have is what are the expectations were of vaccination.

It has always been about preventing you from landing up in hospital or in the worse case the grave.

Plenty of stories about those against it begging for a jab on their death bed when they are far gone.

Since we have such a high rate of vaccination now, I don't agree with distinction between the two. ACT gov are not bothering enforcing this passport concept but business are free to do so if they wish but I can't see many doing so. Why would they?

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Welcome to the thread.

Take a seat.

ROFLMAO
Such a scetchy thread you continue to monitor and contribute after 500+ pages!!

[Charliewool]

With Victoria’s new far-reaching draconian laws now a virtual certainty, Dan assured all of full transparency?
So WHY the sudden secrecy regarding what I’d consider quite an important statistic?
https://amp.theaustralian.com.au/bre...0233cc91e1cb92

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I just don't get the whole anti-vaccine thing. What is the issue ?

I'm old enough to remember people dying from Polio, Smallpox & Dyptheria. At school we were given vaccines of all types & if we went overseas we had extra shots, otherwise no Visa & therefore no overseas trip. Never heard a single gripe in over 50 years.

Now we have another pandemic & some in the community are taking this strange anti-vax stance. What has changed ? Is it the internet spreading half-truths. Do we have a higher percentage of morons in the community nowadays ? Watch the movie Idiocracy if you're not sure what I'm on about.

Not trying to stir the pot, just asking an honest question.

Dr Terry

I believe AZ as one example with its risk of blood clots has not bode well for the masses along with governments handling of the vaccination roll out, also with different state CHO's views has thrown a lot of confusion.
Now as with most vaccinations trialing periods usually are lengthy process which can take years before before being approved for use with the public; with covid vaccinations well they have been fast tracked to be released and I think this is where some of the public hold suspicion protocol has not been followed correctly hence for their reasons not wanting to be vaccinated.
The problem is no one knows if there will be any side effects to the vaccinations if any in the future, this is what got people worried.
This is what I'm hearing when I talk to some people in conversations about the vaccination.

I also think people are resisting for the very reason of being forced to have the jab, I have had people saying they like to make their own informed decision to be vaccinated not to be told or forced by politicians, if this is an antivaxxers thinking I don't know but I'm hearing a lot of this lately through work.
Then the last reason as you put it you will have the Tin Foil Hat Brigade along with the nutters who will believe in any conspiracies.

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Itsme

I believe AZ as one example with its risk of blood clots has not bode well for the masses along with governments handling of the vaccination roll out, also with different state CHO's views has thrown a lot of confusion.
Now as with most vaccinations trialing periods usually are lengthy process which can take years before before being approved for use with the public; with covid vaccinations well they have been fast tracked to be released and I think this is where some of the public hold suspicion protocol has not been followed correctly hence for their reasons not wanting to be vaccinated.
The problem is no one knows if there will be any side effects to the vaccinations if any in the future, this is what got people worried.
This is what I'm hearing when I talk to some people in conversations about the vaccination.

I also think people are resisting for the very reason of being forced to have the jab, I have had people saying they like to make their own informed decision to be vaccinated not to be told or forced by politicians, if this is an antivaxxers thinking I don't know but I'm hearing a lot of this lately through work.
Then the last reason as you put it you will have the Tin Foil Hat Brigade along with the nutters who will believe in any conspiracies.

LOL, imagine if politicians could still force conscription or national service. Then they'll know how it feels to be forced into something unpleasant by the governments. Bunch of babies fighting against a vaccine designed to save lives and the health system LOL.
Those people and antivaxxers are too 'online' for their own good I think. Information and misinformation overload because some people want notoriety or grift by being antivaxx and spreading conspiracy theories for their own attention and purposes.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Itsme

I believe AZ as one example with its risk of blood clots has not bode well for the masses

If I was to believe in conspiracies (which I don't) I think that the whole AZ blood clot thing was blown out of all proportion,helped along by a biased media & a very good PR machine over at the Pfizer side of town.

It could be argued that Pfizer was more "risky" than AZ, (both with very minor percentages of any side effects though) but Pfizer came out looking very "rosy" in the end.

The supposed heart issue from receiving Pfizer was kept very quiet, even though they recommended it not be given to those over 60.

Dr Terry

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

If I was to believe in conspiracies (which I don't) I think that the whole AZ blood clot thing was blown out of all proportion,helped along by a biased media & a very good PR machine over at the Pfizer side of town.

It could be argued that Pfizer was more "risky" than AZ, (both with very minor percentages of any side effects though) but Pfizer came out looking very "rosy" in the end.

The supposed heart issue from receiving Pfizer was kept very quiet, even though they recommended it not be given to those over 60.

Dr Terry

I spoke about this month's ago Doc, way back in this thread, my older brother in the UK had some EU contacts who mentioned about Pfizer being in court over this stuff!
But my memory fails me where on the thread, but you are pretty well on the money in my opinion Doc,.......