Why we're ALL about to go out and buy PHEVs

[Crazy Dazz]

So apparently if Each-Way Albo (aka "Greens' Sock-Puppet") moves into the big house,
not only will they remove any import duties on EVs, but they also claim they will except them from FBT

As part of the Discount, Labor will exempt many electric cars from:

Import tariffs – a 5 per cent tax on some imported electric cars; and
Fringe benefits tax – a 47 per cent tax on electric cars that are provided through work for private use.
These exemptions will be available to all electric cars below the luxury car tax threshold for fuel efficient vehicles ($77,565 in 2020-21)

Waiving the basic import tariff (which doesn't apply to some vehicles anyway due to FTAs) is fine, it's just another way of saying "subsidy."

Exempting EVs (including PHEVs) from FBT is just bat-**** crazy

For those not fully conversant with FBT rules, making something exempt, means that you can salary sacrifice it all, and pay not one cent of tax.
Whilst novated leases have been a common arrangement, for something that is exempt they will be unnecessary.
You can simply buy a car on HP, and have your employer make the repayments, tax free.
In fact, if you can afford the cashflow hit, you can simply have your employer buy the car for you.

As written, their proposal says that every Australian would be able to be paid upto $77k (plus maintenance and running costs) TAX FREE every year.
And why stop at one? If you're a doctor, lawyer, or CEO earning $400K+ a year, get your wife and kids EVs also.
Oh, and the best bit, since it includes PHEVS, you never have to plug it in, and can also get your PETROL paid for tax free also.

And yes, if it wasn't obvious, this will just be another stupid government move, putting more money into the pockets of the rich.
Pensioners, casual and part-time employees won't be able to take advantage of this, and maximum benefit will be available to those with the most disposable income.

[roKWiz]

Wonder what the mining companies will buy ?

[Crazy Dazz]

I wonder if this will see a flurry of PHake EVs, as was seen back in the early days, in the USA (especially California IIRC.)
The government, and I think it was the California government first, introduced a requirement that companies sell a certain percentage of ZEVs. This including PHEVs.
So car makers basically went to Radio Shack, got some plugs and a soldering iron, and Voila, a Plug-In.
(The underlying cars were so-called "1st gen Hybrids" which were barely Hybrids at all.)
They then made the cables a prohibitorily expensive option. So that nobody would buy them, because there was actually nowhere to plug them in.
(essentially because of the lack of onboard support for external charging, all the controls had to be incorporated into either the cable or the charging station.)

[DTFRMONT]

Not much different from 15-20 years ago when some European countries mandated diesel vehicles for company vehicle purchases on the basis of lower emissions. That didn't turn out too well.....

[smoo]

Originally Posted by DTFRMONT

Not much different from 15-20 years ago when some European countries mandated diesel vehicles for company vehicle purchases on the basis of lower emissions. That didn't turn out too well.....

They were following the science, you CTist.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

So apparently if Each-Way Albo (aka "Greens' Sock-Puppet") moves into the big house,
not only will they remove any import duties on EVs, but they also claim they will except them from FBT



Waiving the basic import tariff (which doesn't apply to some vehicles anyway due to FTAs) is fine, it's just another way of saying "subsidy."

Exempting EVs (including PHEVs) from FBT is just bat-**** crazy

For those not fully conversant with FBT rules, making something exempt, means that you can salary sacrifice it all, and pay not one cent of tax.
Whilst novated leases have been a common arrangement, for something that is exempt they will be unnecessary.
You can simply buy a car on HP, and have your employer make the repayments, tax free.
In fact, if you can afford the cashflow hit, you can simply have your employer buy the car for you.

As written, their proposal says that every Australian would be able to be paid upto $77k (plus maintenance and running costs) TAX FREE every year.
And why stop at one? If you're a doctor, lawyer, or CEO earning $400K+ a year, get your wife and kids EVs also.
Oh, and the best bit, since it includes PHEVS, you never have to plug it in, and can also get your PETROL paid for tax free also.

And yes, if it wasn't obvious, this will just be another stupid government move, putting more money into the pockets of the rich.
Pensioners, casual and part-time employees won't be able to take advantage of this, and maximum benefit will be available to those with the most disposable income.

If they have a chubby for ZEVs/PHEVs how about throwing out a couple billion to get some manufacturing back in Australia? Then do all their subsidies/incentives on these vehicles and only ones made in Australia and tarrif the **** out of the rest.

[jpd80]

EV supply and sales are really limited at the moment, so I doubt that government legislation will do much other than grab headlines..How and why tax incentives are applied is always a bone of contention but is this any worse than the virtual open gate policy towards diesel crew cab Utes? At some point, there has to be an off ramp for paying taxes on diesel Utes when green EVs offer better choices. Yes Albo’s tax promises sound alarmingly high until you realise that currently, actual amounts of electric vehicles are small, that’s why they’re doing it.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

EV supply and sales are really limited at the moment, actual amounts of electric vehicles are small, that’s why they’re doing it.

True, but keep in mind this also applies to PHEVs.
And as mentioned, in the USA, a similar lack of distinction, saw just about every manufacturer whack a plug on a Hybrid and call it a PHEV.
Keep in mind that many already have such vehicles in their stables, and just don't bother flogging em, but that could all change rapidly.

Originally Posted by jpd80

is this any worse than the virtual open gate policy towards diesel crew cab Utes?

yes, a lot worse.
The only real problem there is with companies pretending that all dual-cabs meet the limited exemption criteria, and then allowing private use beyond the very limited "to & from work" exemption. Whilst they are dodging FBT, it's still restricted to a relatively small number of employees.
Employees salsacing a car, and choosing a dualie, are still captured.

What's being proposed here is open slather. Anybody receiving slary or wages will be able to buy an EV, then get their employer to reimburse them out of pre-tax earnings, effectively getting up to $77k (plus running costs) tax free.
FMD, if this comes in, and assuming I can beat the rush and the $30k price increase, then even I will go out and get a new PHEV.
(Of course, on principle, I'll disable the plug and run it only on petrol.)

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

If they have a chubby for ZEVs/PHEVs how about throwing out a couple billion to get some manufacturing back in Australia? Then do all their subsidies/incentives on these vehicles and only ones made in Australia and tarrif the **** out of the rest.

no, it's the Greens' NIMBY effect.
Or perhaps more correctly the "out of sight = out of mind" effect.

They want everyone to have EVs or at least Hybrids,
but they don't want us to mine or smelt the metals necessary to build them.

And they don't want nasty factories in Australia,
no far better to build filthy unregulated factories in Asia, and then ship everything on filthy great oil-burning ships.

And of course the granddaddy of them all, that those EVs will actually be powered by Brown Coal, the filthiest power source imaginable.

[Sprintey]

I've got just the song for the government's advertising campaign for this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5kLtdUErxY

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And yes, if it wasn't obvious, this will just be another stupid government move, putting more money into the pockets of the rich.
Pensioners, casual and part-time employees won't be able to take advantage of this, and maximum benefit will be available to those with the most disposable income.

The more ‘rich people’ that buy EV’s the better. With car prices the way they are the people you mentioned won’t be buying new EV’s anyway, even if they were a few grand cheaper. Give people with money a reason to buy them and keep upgrading and eventually we will get a critical mass of used EV’s the above groups will have more of a chance to afford to buy.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

The more ‘rich people’ that buy EV’s the better. With car prices the way they are the people you mentioned won’t be buying new EV’s anyway, even if they were a few grand cheaper. Give people with money a reason to buy them and keep upgrading and eventually we will get a critical mass of used EV’s the above groups will have more of a chance to afford to buy.

Used EVs are going to be an absolute crapshoot with the battery fiasco.

[Bossxr8]

How many EV's can you actually buy for under 77k? Not many.

Typical Labour beholden to the crazy greens though. You'd have us all living in caves if they had their way.

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

As written, their proposal says that every Australian would be able to be paid upto $77k (plus maintenance and running costs) TAX FREE every year.
And why stop at one? If you're a doctor, lawyer, or CEO earning $400K+ a year, get your wife and kids EVs also.
Oh, and the best bit, since it includes PHEVS, you never have to plug it in, and can also get your PETROL paid for tax free also.

you say all this like it's a bad thing

[simon varley]

what on earth is so wrong about promoting EVs? I'd have one tomorrow if I could

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Typical Labour beholden to the crazy greens though. You'd have us all living in caves if they had their way.

now that's just BS. what' is wrong with trying to make things sustainable? it doesn't mean we can't have nice things. Might just mean that we have to keep them for more than six months.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

How many EV's can you actually buy for under 77k? Not many.

Typical Labour beholden to the crazy greens though. You'd have us all living in caves if they had their way.

Oh but they expect the Government to subsidize.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

And of course the granddaddy of them all, that those EVs will actually be powered by Brown Coal, the filthiest power source imaginable.

It's time to debunk this continual statement by those opposed to EVs: nationally, over the last 12 months, brown coal has equated for somewhere between 13 and 17% of the national electricity market source of generation.

https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem/?range=1y&interval=1w

The only state that uses brown coal as a generation source is Victoria, and then brown coal generation equates for somewhere between 60 and 80% of the state's total generation.

I don't think it's factual to claim that, nationally, EVs will be powered by brown coal.

In Victoria alone, you can see the impact that solar and wind are having on the generation source profile. Especially rooftop solar.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

It's time to debunk this continual statement by those opposed to EVs: nationally, over the last 12 months, brown coal has equated for somewhere between 13 and 17% of the national electricity market source of generation.

https://opennem.org.au/energy/nem/?range=1y&interval=1w

The only state that uses brown coal as a generation source is Victoria, and then brown coal generation equates for somewhere between 60 and 80% of the state's total generation.

I don't think it's factual to claim that, nationally, EVs will be powered by brown coal.

In Victoria alone, you can see the impact that solar and wind are having on the generation source profile. Especially rooftop solar.

sorry to debunk your debunk, but cars need to be charged at night, I don't know about you but I've noticed that it gets dark during the night and generally the wind drops too.

and Coal equates to 75% of Australia Electricity not sure where you got your information.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by simon varley

now that's just BS. what' is wrong with trying to make things sustainable? it doesn't mean we can't have nice things. Might just mean that we have to keep them for more than six months.

Because the tax payers shouldn't be forking out for it.

And really, it's only going to make 2 fifths of f all difference anyway. Good luck getting your hands on EV's when Europe is taking up the supply. Only the cheapest Tesla comes in under that cut off point, and waiting lists are huge for that too.

I'm not against EV's, we all know it's heading that way, but why should the taxpayers be forking out subsidies for it? I'd rather the government use the money to build some low (zero?) emissions nuclear reactors to replace the coal fired plants so everyone can benefit, and provide 24/7/365 base load power. Then maybe the energy used to charge the EV's won't be from dirty coal.

And i'm sure that will provide a much bigger emissions saving than a few thousand EV's will.

I'd like to see real actions, not nibbling at the edges token measures that do very little.

[simon varley]

fair enough

[JasonACT]

Serious question, how is government not collecting a tax, the same as tax payers forking out for it? Perception maybe?

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

It's time to debunk this continual statement

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

brown coal generation equates for somewhere between 60 and 80% of the state's total generation.

Oh yeah, you debunked the **** outa that.

And you're also disingenuously splitting hairs.
Whilst it's true that the worst stuff, Brown Coal, is mostly from Latrobe
Most other states still burn Thermal Coal, which in some cases may even be worse for Carbon Emissions.

Even WA, which most people don't even think has coal, gets most of our baseline power from Coal.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

sorry to debunk your debunk, but cars need to be charged at night,

want to hear the really sick part???

In Perth, if you buy an EV, Synergy will give you a special Electricity tariff, to make it cheaper to charge your EV, over night
That's right, night-time, when all the peak turbines are offline, and there is only the baseline.
And guess where that's coming from...

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

And really, it's only going to make 2 fifths of f all difference anyway. Good luck getting your hands on EV's when Europe is taking up the supply. Only the cheapest Tesla comes in under that cut off point, and waiting lists are huge for that too.

Yes, you're right, that there will be initially be a massive problem with supply, and it would also tend towards pushing the prices up,
and yeah, a decade later scrap yards will be full of junked EVs and idiots blowing themselves up trying to recycle the batteries.

But I think your are underestimating the ability of suppliers to adapt.

Firstly their policy specifically also applies to PHEVs
If you look at the American Market, just about any available Hybrid can be optioned as a PHEV, and in fact some models they have dispensed with the non-plugin versions.
Whilst some PHEVS are very complex models in their own right, the most basic ones can be just a Hybrid with a plug. (With charging management built into either the cord or the plug.) Now I realise that the world has moved towards standardised charging points, but unless it's otherwise mandated by ADRs, there's no reason we won't seek a repeat of the American PHake-EVs.

For those in the highest tax-bracket, this will almost halve the cost of the car.
Remember back in the day when Japanese companies started up Australian Production to take advantage of our high import tariffs? Well this will be better than that.

As for price, there may well be method in their madness. Remember what happened when Labour first introduced the Luxury Car tax?
Suddenly you could buy a Mercedes where the radio (and everything else) was a dealer-fitted option, just to get it under the threshold.

[Warrenk]

They better hope there wind generators/farms are nowhere near peoples home. A precident has now been set for shutting the generators down at night. So the only energy to charge cars at night will be produced from coal.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-...ages/100938656

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

True, but keep in mind this also applies to PHEVs.
And as mentioned, in the USA, a similar lack of distinction, saw just about every manufacturer whack a plug on a Hybrid and call it a PHEV.
Keep in mind that many already have such vehicles in their stables, and just don't bother flogging em, but that could all change rapidly.

No it won’t because by the time those PHEVs get here they are so friggin expensive that most ignore them

yes, a lot worse.
The only real problem there is with companies pretending that all dual-cabs meet the limited exemption criteria, and then allowing private use beyond the very limited "to & from work" exemption. Whilst they are dodging FBT, it's still restricted to a relatively small number of employees.
Employees salsacing a car, and choosing a dualie, are still captured.

Successive governments worked out that enforcing FBT was both political suicide and simply not justified in the backlash of all those companies then switching to actual business costs and clogging the absolute shyte out of compliance officers trying to catch people, the reason the government went easy on this type of tax surveillance is exactly because they pruned thousands from tax enforcement.

What's being proposed here is open slather. Anybody receiving slary or wages will be able to buy an EV, then get their employer to reimburse them out of pre-tax earnings, effectively getting up to $77k (plus running costs) tax free.
FMD, if this comes in, and assuming I can beat the rush and the $30k price increase, then even I will go out and get a new PHEV.
(Of course, on principle, I'll disable the plug and run it only on petrol.)

No they won’t, there are still rules that apply for business usage and most people will take actual business usage as a way of enabling a better deduction that avoids FBT question altogether.
For those playing along at home, the government still requires people to establish actual business percentage usage for passenger vehicles, that aces any concerns about FBT in my books.

The opposition (government) offers this knowing its up fro a max of $250 million, so they already know how it will be controlled.

[Vekgib]

When I go on a cruise and the ship is run on electricity, or when I fly overseas and the plane runs on electricity, then I'll consider buying an EV.

[MITCHAY]

So whats the difference between this and all the FBT rorts that have happened forever. **** all people buy electric cars and this won't change anything.

Election campaign in full swing

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Gee it's hard to interact with some of you guys some times. It's as though you take anything presented with a different view as a personal affront.

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

sorry to debunk your debunk, but cars need to be charged at night, I don't know about you but I've noticed that it gets dark during the night and generally the wind drops too.

and Coal equates to 75% of Australia Electricity not sure where you got your information.

You're a smart guy. Vesper, I'm sure you could work out that my post related directly to Dazz's quote saying that EVs [in Australia] will be powered by brown coal. I wasn't referring to the quantity of coal (both black and brown) generation. If I was, I'd agree with the figure you've presented. But, fact is that brown coal generation made up somewhere between 13 and 17% of the NEM's generation sources over the last 12 months calculated on a daily basis. To state that EVs in Australia will be powered by brown coal is not right.

Again, I'm also sure you could follow the link and find out for yourself what the source of data was (did you actually look at the link?). If you follow that link, you'll see the data sources are:

The widget uses three principle sources for the data:

In most cases, data is SCADA data published by AEMO (for Scheduled Generators & Loads, plus some of the larger Semi-Scheduled plant). We aggregate unit level data to fuel type using mapping established in our Generator Catalog.

To show a fuller context of consumption, the widget was updated (March 2015) to match NEM-Watch v10 in also including "APVI Small Solar". Mouse-over the APVI solar generation for each state to see its individual time-stamp as it can be different for each state/region. The APVI solar data we use is derived by the Australian Photovoltaic Institute (APVI) and published here:

Australian PV Institute (APVI) solar map, funded by the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA)

To show a fuller picture of the fuel source mix used in electricity supply across the country, the widget was also updated (July 2015) to include similar data for the South-West Interconnected System (SWIS) in Western Australia – using data originally published by the Independent Market Operator (IMO-WA), and now by AEMO West, following the merger. Note that this data comes in ½ hourly time steps – the most recent data is shown.

With respect to this supply-side data, we have constructed an equivalent view of demand (i.e. to ensure an "apples-to-apples" comparison). Charging of batteries (pumped storage, or chemical batteries) are shown explicitly.

As far as the wind goes at night, I'm not sure where you're getting your data from (anecdotal? personal experience?) but have a look at that data source link I provided, for the entire NEM for the last 30 days and you'll see that, on average, there's not really that much variation between day and night with respect to wind generation. Sure, there's times when it is lower at night, but there's also times when it's higher, too.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Oh yeah, you debunked the **** outa that.

And you're also disingenuously splitting hairs.
Whilst it's true that the worst stuff, Brown Coal, is mostly from Latrobe
Most other states still burn Thermal Coal, which in some cases may even be worse for Carbon Emissions.

Even WA, which most people don't even think has coal, gets most of our baseline power from Coal.

I'm not sure how I'm disingenuously splitting hairs. I was just responding to a rather significant comment you made in your post. I'm sorry if the data doesn't support your statement, but that's not me being disingenuous or splitting hairs. I could suggest you've changed tack a little to focus on coal because you've been shown that the data doesn't support your position. It could have been a mistake, but given the history you have of making this statement, I think you actually meant to post about brown coal and not black and brown coal in toto.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

It just shows the stupidity of many "Greenies" that they tout Electric Vehicles as being clean and good for the environment.

Two things to consider:

I work in the Mining Industry and have done for a good while now. Yes, Lithium is all the rage, and new projects are sprouting like weeds?
But why now? Ok so demand has risen exponentially, but why weren't these projects viable before? It's because most of these deposit are extremely low concentration, the Lithium Ore is extremely hard and expensive to grind, and very expensive to process.
So, bottom line, its an extremely "dirty" and energy consuming mineral to mine and process.

Now on to the Vehicles themselves.
EV's (including plug-in hybrids) are most heavily pushed in countries that rely on Nuclear Power.
Think about that for a minute.
Only a few years ago, mention of the word "Nuclear" or "Uranium" would have the Greenies foaming at the mouth and trying to bite you in the neck. Indeed they were chaining themselves to bulldozers around the globe.
Olympic Dam is so contaminated, you have to sign a waiver to work there. Nope, I both like my testicles, and want to limit the number to 2.
Plus of course, this is where the NIMBY factor goes ballistic.
Of course the nouveau-hippies (and there's a few in here) will prattle on about Solar Cells. Fantastic, if you're prepared to pay (without subsidy) to blanket your home in solar cells, and go completely off-grid, then have at. Unfortunately that will mean living so far out of the city, that your EV will be useless.
The Bottom line, in Australia (and most countries) is that an Electric Vehicle is effectively being run on Brown Coal. The dirtiest, filthiest, most polluting power source available. Yes, mixed in there is Solar, Wind, and Natural Gas, but that's not how it works. Obviously we prioritise clean power, and switch off the filthy stuff when and if we can. The problem is that not only are we several decades away from that, but the more we lower demand for Coal, the cheaper and more attractive it becomes. Also keep in mind that most countries in the world can't afford to be as prissy as us, so that will keep on burning coal as long as it remains cheap.

Even in a best case scenario, your EV is running on Natural Gas. So why not just save expense, inconvenience, and Lithium, and simply convert your car to gas?

So once again, just like "recycling", EV's just serve to make the Millennials feel good, whilst shifting the problem somewhere else.
In the case of a very densely populated metropolis, there is probably some benefit in shifting emissions, but the overall effect is a negative.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Always nice to see a bit of debate encouraged.

I don't "hate" EVs per se.

What I hate are narrowed minded and ignorant nouveau-green areguments that simply ignore reality:
"Lets not build a new, modern, regulated paper-mill in our state, instead lets ship the wood chips to China, and then ship the paper back. Same for Copper, Steel, etc, etc."
"Our Council should spend millions on a 4-bin recycling system, so I can separate" my trash and feel better about my consumer lifestyle, before it all gets tipped into landfill anyway."
"Yes, lets ban any industry in this country that might actually be able to recycle things, and instead buy everything from China."

And the simple fact is that your EV is only ever going to be as "Green" as the power it uses to charge, and in Australia that means Coal. Dirty, Stinking, Brown Coal.

As for those talking about "delivery costs," ROFL, this again just shows the ignorant "it's free from the guvment" attitude of the neo-hippies.
The infrastructure required to get Electricity to your house costs Billions, and is already overtaxed in most Australian cities. It costs hundreds of millions in repairs and maintenance, and loses a substantial amount to transmission loss.

Let me give you the ACTUAL costs her in Perth.
The Electricity costs about 8c/kWh. (That is the amount that the provider must credit you for feeding back into the grid)
But the charge to the consumer is almost 29c /kWh. That's a 250% markup to deliver the electricity to you.

I don't know the infrastructure costs of reticulated gas, but I would imagine they are far less, as the technology is pretty basis, and transmission loss is negligible.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

You really should stop posting until you complete a refresher in basic English comprehension.
Not sure how on earth you could conclude I was complaining about Petrol prices, when I clearly said that I was filling up on Diesel??? (And my TTG runs on LPG)

And for the record, I don't dump on Electric Cars or their owners per se.
I dump on those who:

1. Calculate the cost of running an Electric Car by assuming the charging and operating process is 100% efficient
2. Think buying a Tesla will pay for itself
   
3. Claim Electricity is cleaner, when it's actually being generated from Brown Coal
4. Believe that buying an overpriced POS product ten years ago, makes them smart, because in 30 years they will be better.
5. Believes that by buying anything with Hybrid tacked onto the name, they have done their duty and saved the planet
6. Thinks that eliminating any emissions form their tiny personal vehicle, represents even a a drop in the bucket of total vehicular emissions
7. Has been bleating for the last 30 years that ICE will have disappeared completely "within a decade" even though we're probably still half a century away from Viable Electric Heavy Transport
8. Anybody that thinks riding in any conveyance propelled by an electric motor is in anyway comparable to a V8.

With double disdain for those who additionally feel that any of the above entitles them to feel morally superior

I'm also happy to acknowledge that some of the quotes of yours I've grabbed are from some years ago where they were more valid than they are now. But that is no longer the case. It might be for Vic, but not for the National Electricity Market as as a whole.

And you're not the only one to make similar statements. Now, I appreciate Franco was most likely referring to Vic when he wrote this, but that's not what he actually said. People read this stuff, in the context it is written, and assume it to be true. But it's not.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its not working at all, its doing nothing for the environment except shifting the burden onto someone else, like those third world ****holes using slave labour to mine the cobalt that goes into those batteries they use, those batteries that are also very difficult to recycle.

But its alright, Europe will be OK who cares about those brown people to their south in their squalor and their human rights issues we're supporting

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...m-ion-battery/

We can't get enough from the slavery mines in the DRC, so lets mine the sea floor in the quest for being environmentally friendly:

https://www.mining-technology.com/fe...-green-future/

Quick, everyone we need electric cars, so we can charge them with our brown coal power plants, Melbourne will be clean, who cares about the people on the outskirts of Traralgon where the brown coal gets burned to generate the power to charge them.

I work at a brown coal fired power station, and, from a career perspective, I'd be happy for the station to stay open until I retired, but the reality is that the economics of operating are being impacted. My employer recently revised the closure date of the plant I work at, but there's very few of us who think the plant will still be operating beyond 2035. We've already seen a shift in operating profile, especially in the last 12 months. Most of that is from the additional solar and wind generation within the system. Rooftop solar alone generates about the same as what our entire station does at full capacity! There is some battery storage in Vic now, but it is very small atm. But that will only expand, and that means that the variability of both solar and wind will minimise as more battery capacity is brought on line.

My background and interest in brown coal is why I felt I could offer some insight that perhaps others don't have.