SCHOOL ZONES

David See · 22-05-2006, 11:29 PM

Hi all,

I thought this would be worth an ask seeing as this forum is filled with people passionate about their cars and, I guess, driving.

I work from my car and am constantly on the road doing many km's a year. I have been driving since 1981 and have been booked twcie in that time - once for speeding (50km/h in a school zone 1 minute before it was due to end - my car clock was out by a couple of minutes) and once at 12 midnight for disobeying a no right hand sign that one couldn't see clearly. I was the only car on the road at that time.

Regardless, I feel I am a responsible and competeant driver, but I see a time coming very soon where many of us will lose our licences and possibly our livelihood because of convoluted and varying laws for road safety. It used to be so simple.

With all this hullabaloo about School Zones and how fines and demerit points are going to be increased for infringements, I ask this:

1) If the powrers that be are truly concerned about road safety, why aren't flashing lights installed in ALL school zones, seeing as they have been TRIALLED and proven SUCCESSFUL for the last three years, not to mention WANTED by most if not all drivers?

2) What will happen when kids keep getting killed with these new laws and fines? Will the powers that be then reduce the speed in school zones to 20kmh and then 10km/h until all infringements mean an instant loss of licences?

3) I would defy anyone to say that they stick to the speed limit all the time and I would like to think that those who use their vehicles for work would get more points allocated to them as they are on the road much more than the average user.

It is obvious the Police and the Government are up against the fact that they will NEVER stop these deaths (in addition to fatal road motor vehicle accidents) because these events are just that - ACCIDENTS! All these guys can do is make it look like they are TRYING.

Look at the facts - every year the fines are increased and yet still more people die on the roads. It's not working, yet the fines increase and so do the demerit point penalties.

For the last five years (moreso since the introduction of the nothing-but-revnue raising speed cameras) I have said that pretty soon we will all be riding pushbikes. Then we will be forced to register them and then that will be made so hard that we will all decide to walk.

There is a fine for nearly everything these days. I even know a colleague who got booked for going TOO SLOW in the fast lane on the freeway. This was his only conviction in his 20-year driving period and couldn't get off it for his good record. God knows how we all survived for so long without all these rules.

BlueJ · 22-05-2006, 11:57 PM

Some good points there David.

Did you get pinged by a speed camera in the school zone, or by a policeman? I have seen police checking speeds in the school zone near my work, but they aren't still there one minute before the speed limit ends.

So I guess it was a speed camera? This is not the point of your post, but surely challenging that one is a no-brainer?

1) Because there is too much money being wasted elsewhere, they don't have enough money to put school zone lights everywhere. Some schools have them, I think lights will become universal sooner or later.

2) Sooner or later someone will become accountable for road policy. When that happens they will have to introduce sensible policy. Still, it hasn't happened in my lifetime, nor my father's for that matter, so don't hold your breath.

3) True, but I think many stick closer to the limit than they used to.

Accidents? I think many drivers are 'accidents' waiting to happen. I think the majority of crashes are caused by poor driving. Sometimes circumstances can be against you, and you can't do anything about it. But I think the driver contributes in most cases - or to put it another way, a more careful driver in the same car in the same situation wouldn't crash. I have a problem with the word 'accident' being applied to the majority of road crashes.

Yep, fines are increasing and have been for 20+ years. And new infringements are being introduced all the time as well, eg drug driving and mobile phone laws (which I happen to support by the way).

What can we do about it? Keep our noses clean and have our fun off-road (Calder, Heathcote).

I must say I often wonder why more people don't get pinged for driving slowly in the right hand lane...it says a lot about the driver's state of awareness and therefore concentration on their driving that they could be unaware of a queue of traffic behind them on a freeway. Of course, it isn't the most dangerous driving offence, but it makes more sense to enforce that one than ping someone for driving a 44km/h at 9:29AM in a school zone?

BlueJ · 23-05-2006, 12:02 AM

I just noticed you are in NSW while I am in VIC

LOL looks like the sentiments expressed are universal then

**Raptor** · 23-05-2006, 08:30 AM

Thread moved to the Bar (not out of place here)

Kryton · 23-05-2006, 09:12 AM

perhaps a better solution is to EDUCATE the children and teach them to RESPECT the road. when i was at school we were taught road safety and what could happen if you didnt STOP, LOOK and LISTEN. seems they dont teach this anymore so we the drivers have to suffer for it.

Melz · 23-05-2006, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

perhaps a better solution is to EDUCATE the children and teach them to RESPECT the road. when i was at school we were taught road safety and what could happen if you didnt STOP, LOOK and LISTEN. seems they dont teach this anymore so we the drivers have to suffer for it.

In all fairness, i can understand what you are saying, but a 5 year old child may not have the broader understanding of their environment. They are focussed on what is important to them, and traffic on a road where there favourite ball or such is laying in the middle, of isn't what they will focus on...

But i agree, they need to bring road safety lessons back into the classroom.

muppet · 23-05-2006, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

perhaps a better solution is to EDUCATE the children and teach them to RESPECT the road. when i was at school we were taught road safety and what could happen if you didnt STOP, LOOK and LISTEN. seems they dont teach this anymore so we the drivers have to suffer for it.

Spot on there mate I see too many people young and old just walk out in front of cars without looking. I know it is hard to teach young children road safety but at least someone should be trying to. It can't allways be the car drivers fault.

4.9 EF Futura · 23-05-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

1) If the powrers that be are truly concerned about road safety, why aren't flashing lights installed in ALL school zones, seeing as they have been TRIALLED and proven SUCCESSFUL for the last three years, not to mention WANTED by most if not all drivers?

I think this is on the cards is it not? Apparently to be funded by speed cameras installed at the same time... news reported $6.5mio revenue from one school zone alone - but difficult to verify this claim. Sounds reasonable tho? God forbid a state government should spend any of its own money.

Quote:

2) What will happen when kids keep getting killed with these new laws and fines? Will the powers that be then reduce the speed in school zones to 20kmh and then 10km/h until all infringements mean an instant loss of licences?

Probably, yes. I think this is one area where they'll get away with it tho. Particularly considering the couple of recent high profile accidents. I mean, who is going to come out publicly and slag off measures which are apparently aimed at preventing such incidents and protecting children?

Quote:

3) I would defy anyone to say that they stick to the speed limit all the time and I would like to think that those who use their vehicles for work would get more points allocated to them as they are on the road much more than the average user.

Lol, dunno about that. In a perfect world you wouldnt need more points as you'd never loose em

Quote:

It is obvious the Police and the Government are up against the fact that they will NEVER stop these deaths (in addition to fatal road motor vehicle accidents) because these events are just that - ACCIDENTS! All these guys can do is make it look like they are TRYING.

That's what police and state governments excel at - being seen to be doing something. I wouldnt expect that to change any time soon.

Quote:

Look at the facts - every year the fines are increased and yet still more people die on the roads. It's not working, yet the fines increase and so do the demerit point penalties.

Well history would suggest that far fewer people die on our roads now than they used to....

Quote:

For the last five years (moreso since the introduction of the nothing-but-revnue raising speed cameras) I have said that pretty soon we will all be riding pushbikes. Then we will be forced to register them and then that will be made so hard that we will all decide to walk.

I probably need the excercise

All jokes aside, I agree that increasing penalties probably wont help much. I'd put a small wager on the fact that most people who get caught speeding in a school zone probably arent doing it "on purpose". It may weed out those who dont care/are willingly speeding - but that would be a small % IMO.

I understand that elderly drivers have been involved in more than one occasion with these school zone accidents? But that's a different topic altogether.

J.C. · 23-05-2006, 10:17 AM

Some good points raised here. However, we as responsible members of the community do need to get back to basics. We need to take responsiblity for our actions etc and as a parent, both my wife and I hammer home the importance of road safety to our children. I do not rely on the "systems" in place today to enforce or teach my kids these things. Yes, sure they may teach it at school, but as a parent it is my responsiblity alone to make sure that they fully understand and put into practise what they have learnt and correct it if they are not fully aware. It is too late blaming someone else or the system when my child is lying dead and dismembered on a road somewhere. Seems to be the underlying problem nowadays. Hear it far to often that "It is someone elses fault or responsiblity". Time too "pin 'em on" and take some ownership and responsibity I feel. Children are our future....... and our responsibilty as parents is to teach them the difference between right and wrong. Teaching them to cross a road safely is just one of those responsiblities.

WILDTRAKPX2 · 23-05-2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David See

I even know a colleague who got booked for going TOO SLOW in the fast lane on the freeway.

Excellent! The more this happens the better.

XR6ISM · 23-05-2006, 10:24 AM

I dont know about you guys, but when I was a kid my mum felt that she had a responsibility to park her car and "WALK" me to school....That includes crossing the road.

I see so many parents just leave their kids and drive off. Mate, its the PARENTS responsibility to make sure their kids get to school safely and if they do not take the responsibility then they are just as much at fault as a driver who may knock a kid down (knock on wood that this does not happen).

I agree with 40km/h limits in school zones, however last time I checked, other peoples kids are not my responsibility !!! Sticking to the speed limit is.

Keepleft · 23-05-2006, 10:37 AM

David See wrote: -
With all this hullabaloo about School Zones and how fines and demerit points are going to be increased for infringements, I ask this:

1) If the powers that be are truly concerned about road safety, why aren't flashing lights installed in ALL school zones, seeing as they have been TRIALLED and proven SUCCESSFUL for the last three years, not to mention WANTED by most if not all drivers?

Where is this 'proven' outcome??

2) What will happen when kids keep getting killed with these new laws

School speed zone signage is not related to l.a.w.

and fines? Will the powers that be then reduce the speed in school zones to 20kmh and then 10km/h until all infringements mean an instant loss of licences?

The screws only tighten, and will do so only as far as an apathetic populace lets them.

3) I would defy anyone to say that they stick to the speed limit all the time and I would like to think that those who use their vehicles for work would get more points allocated to them as they are on the road much more than the average user.

Traffic jams are caused by people getting to work, so that won't work. A case for additional points allowance could be made for heavy vehicle drivers and those in industries that drive daily as part of employment. Many issues however.

It is obvious the Police and the Government are up against the fact that they will NEVER stop these deaths (in addition to fatal road motor vehicle accidents) because these events are just that - ACCIDENTS! All these guys can do is make it look like they are TRYING.

We can do a lot more and are far from being serious about the 'road toll'.

Look at the facts - every year the fines are increased and yet still more people die on the roads. It's not working, yet the fines increase and so do the demerit point penalties.

Fines increase, so do wages. Penalties are 'reviewed' periodically. In my view many driving offence penalties are well under penalised. Doing U-Turns on freeways for example.

There is a fine for nearly everything these days. I even know a colleague who got booked for going TOO SLOW in the fast lane on the freeway. This was his only conviction in his 20-year driving period and couldn't get off it for his good record. God knows how we all survived for so long without all these rules.

This is a rare one when offset against other penalties is not at all often issued. The person must have REALLY stood out. The person stands a much higher chance of that IF he or she routinely camps in the middle lane of a three lane section of motorway/freeway, 20 - 40km/h below other traffic.

I get this on the F3, people towing say a caravan or boat in the middle lane at 60km/h uphill whilst traffic passes on the left and right lanes simultaneously. It's an 'Australian' thing.

fiery · 23-05-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6ISM

I dont know about you guys, but when I was a kid my mum felt that she had a responsibility to park her car and "WALK" me to school....That includes crossing the road.

I see so many parents just leave their kids and drive off. Mate, its the PARENTS responsibility to make sure their kids get to school safely and if they do not take the responsibility then they are just as much at fault as a driver who may knock a kid down (knock on wood that this does not happen).

I agree with 40km/h limits in school zones, however last time I checked, other peoples kids are not my responsibility !!! Sticking to the speed limit is.

I agree totally, children are being encouraged by some parents to cross in unsafe areas... I walk my youngest into his school and am there to walk him out in the afternoon... (I don't think my eldest would be too impressed if I tried that with him though

)..

It is the parents responsibility to ensure their children are safe but I have noticed how many parents actually cross a busy main road dragging their poor little grade oner child behind them... Some schools have lollypop ladies still, so parent should be using them or encouraging their children to use them..

It may not be the drivers responsibility to watch out for someone else's child but thinking about what can happen makes you realise to just take that little bit of extra care won't have you ending up hating yourself for running a child over because that child's parents has been to lazy to ensure their children are getting to and from school safely. And yes it is every drivers responsibility to obey the speed limit.... just wish some would more often..

MRJUCY · 23-05-2006, 11:16 AM

I think if they're serious about trying to save kiddies lives by reducing the speed limit in front of schools they need flashing lights when they're in opporation. I know I've kept going at the normal limit straight through them before as I didn't realise as I'm so used to driving past there out of school hours. It's not because I wanted to speed or because I'm a careless driver but in all honesty nobody reads every sign if they've travelled on the same bit of road hundreds of times before.

lisa76 · 23-05-2006, 11:58 AM

I have a 7yo daughter and she is not yet responsible enough to be let cross the road by herself to go to school - I don't know too many kids who are at that age. We live on a busy 4 lane highway which she knows not to go anywhere near. Her school is situated on a very quiet road but because of this I feel she gets complacent. She just assumes nothing is coming. It is for this reason if crossing the road is necessary, I hold her hand and cross with her and wait until she is safely inside the school gates (it is so not cool to go in with her). Of an afternoon, I park the car in the carpark of the nearby RSL carpark (as recommended by the school) and wait for her on the footpath right near the pedestrian crossing which is operated by a lollipop lady. Whilst waiting here each afternoon I see some of the most dangerous driving acts imaginable. People will stop virtually on top of the crossing and expect a child to run out and get in the car. Then there are others who will do a u-turn right on top of the crossing.

There have been numerous times when the lollipop lady has stepped out and a car has come screaming through and almost knocked her over. In my view, motorists aswell as children and parents need to be more diligent in school zones.

On the other side of my daughter's school is a busy 4 lane road where kids cross at the traffic lights. This is monitored by a senior school staff member. It is very well sign posted that this is indeed a school zone but still motorists aren't taking appropriate and responsible action in the area. A radar would have a field day here every afternoon - I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Also, once the lights turn red, the kids are given the green symbol to cross. However, almost every day more than one motorist fails to stop at the red light and there have been too many near misses with the kids on the crossing. This is why it is now monitored by school staff.

People need to remember they are only kids. They don't have the same higher level of ability to judge speed and distance of cars that adults do. The responsibility lies with both the motorist and the parent in my view.

David See · 23-05-2006, 12:20 PM

Well, I agree that a lot of parents do not take adequate care of their kids now as perhaps their life is "too busy" to wait around and make sure their kids are ok. We are amazed at the number of young kids, girls in particular, who are let walk to school by themselves without adult supervision. Apalling.

I just see the laws and increases in fines/points loss being a knee-jerk reaction to something we really don't know how to solve. And, yes, it is VERY difficult for those of us who spend hundreds of hours a week behind the wheel to earn a living. Perhaps they should get the cops out from hiding in the bushes pinging people for doing 115 in a 110 zone and make their presence much more noticable in school zones.

(Don't get me wrong, I have the uptmost respect for Police, but to me it is obvious that hiding in bushes so they can jump out and scare the life out of you on a busy freeway, and hiding their camera cars behind concrete barriers with tiny signs warning you of their presence only instills a sense of disrespect and then perhaps apathy from the public IMO).

For a few years now I have laughed that "the laws won't matter soon, we will all be walking anyway - everyone will have lost their licence".

Also, I think if they outlaw mobile phone use in a car, then they should also outlaw smoking and eating - surely these activities must be distracting whilst driving:

"Damn, where DID that pickle go????"

gozza · 23-05-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

perhaps a better solution is to EDUCATE the children and teach them to RESPECT the road. when i was at school we were taught road safety and what could happen if you didnt STOP, LOOK and LISTEN. seems they dont teach this anymore so we the drivers have to suffer for it.

yeah mate.....the roads are for cars......the sidewalk are for pedestrians...

what happened to crossing with an adult......how hard is it to cross on a crossing....jesus....i feel for little children who are in involved in these type of accidents but theres enough things to worry about than an impatient child popping up out of no where...

look bothways,,,,listen....look again....im 20 and i still do that for pedestrian crossings...

yes we can slow to 40kph....no worries...but thats still not going to stop stupid kids from running out on the road

this leads to another problem........older people who should be role models for children that are setting a bad example...

countless times i have had to slow down and come to an almost stop because a person is just dawdling across the road knowing that if we hit them its out fault.....knowing that can take there sweet time to cross because we will stop....little kids see this and what do they think....they need to respect the roads and respect motor vhicles

Angry Beaver · 23-05-2006, 04:48 PM

Do you know who I have found to be the worst with road rules. High school students. Going past the local high school is a nightmare. Not only do the parents have problems with parking but the students seem to have lost their common sense when it comes to road rules. I actually got abused by said high school students because I shook my head at them for walking across the road illegally and not only that making every car come to an emergency halt while they sauntered across the road.

AWD Chaser · 23-05-2006, 08:21 PM

If you changed the actuall zebra crossing part to a large speed bump, then cars, buses, and trucks will not be able to speed over it. Simple. No electronics or lolly pop people needed......

Hawk · 23-05-2006, 09:10 PM

The amount of times I see people driving 60 in 40 zones is unbelievable. One big problem is that you almost feel out of place going that slow that it tempts you to speed up.

I say definately bring in flashing lights - anything that alerts you to the fact that the speed has changed is a plus.

kempster1 · 23-05-2006, 09:44 PM

Anybody speeding in a school zone should get hit with the full brunt of the law!!!
There is no excuse for it....
Kids are our future

**Raptor** · 23-05-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kempster1

Anybody speeding in a school zone should get hit with the full brunt of the law!!!
There is no excuse for it....
Kids are our future

Even the school zone I pass through on the way to work.

It's a 'special school', every kid gets driven to it where there is onsite parking for them to disembark.

The road is straight, 4 lanes wide with a decent median strip, with good visibility both ways, wide footpaths that I hardly ever see anyone on and if I do it's an adult walking a dog or something.

At the times I pass through traffic is very light, it is posted 80km/h either side. About 200m up the road from this school zone is where you normally see the public school kids riding bikes or walking to their school. That's where I slow down and take it easy, not in this other stupid school zone that's only there because every school gets treated the same way.

THESE BLANKET LAWS ARE DUMBING US DOWN!

DRIVE FOR THE CIRCUMSTANCES!

DONT BLINDLY FOLLOW THE RULES, DISENGAGE YOUR BRAIN, AND THINK IT"LL ALL BE OK!

David See · 23-05-2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kempster1

Anybody speeding in a school zone should get hit with the full brunt of the law!!!
There is no excuse for it....
Kids are our future

Parents need to take control of the situation and look after their kids instead of worrying about whether they are going to miss the morning Late with their friends.

Kids aren't responsible enough - parents are.

39ClevoUte · 23-05-2006, 10:31 PM

Got to test the ABS two days ago....slowed down to 40 and had my eye of a suspect Kid on the otherside of the road looking like he was going to do something dumb, when whack out from behind a 4*4 on my side of the road comes another one straight in front of me, the brakes work a treat, any more than 40 and he was a gone. Dumb *** grannie looks up from rooting around in the tailgate of the 4*4 as if to what the stuff are you doing.....at me!!!!

AWD Chaser · 23-05-2006, 10:32 PM

I used to say that if a kid is on the road at 12pm during the day, they shouldn't be out of school anyway, my that opinion has since changed.

NOTE: ACT have 40km/h zones from 8:30am to 4pm Mon to Fri
NSW have 40km/h zones from 8:30am till 10am and 2:30pm till 4pm (I think those times are right...) Mon to Fri...

Angry Beaver · 23-05-2006, 10:47 PM

Raptor, If one of those special needs kids actually does break away, and yes I am talking about the ones who can walk and run, They are damn quick and have no sense of danger at all. I know I have one of those, so hence the reason for the speed zone. But as people have been saying. The responsibility lies with the parents, They have to start taking responsibility. The education department is failing us to. Someone else said how when they went to school it was taught, now days its not. I remember going to the back of the redcliffe pcyc to learn road rules as they had a huge set up there.

**Raptor** · 24-05-2006, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angry Beaver

Raptor, If one of those special needs kids actually does break away, and yes I am talking about the ones who can walk and run, They are damn quick and have no sense of danger at all. I know I have one of those, so hence the reason for the speed zone......

Point noted Angry Beaver. I'm more than happy to slow down when there is a risk of this. What gets me though is that every school is treated the same with no considerations to the local conditions. Clearly what is in place for some situations is inadequate, while at others it is complete overkill.

A correction to what I wrote earlier, the road outside this school is 6 lanes wide. There are no parked cars blocking visibility, light traffic (seems heavier when everyone slows down to 40 though) and the children are all driven to school where the parents/carers can park well back from the road inside the fenced off school grounds. Yet traffic has to slow to 40km/h but for what? Yet just up the road the public school kids are crossing the road, walking/riding along the footpath and milling around the corner shops beside the 80km/h zone

:

In this case I believe I am the better judge of where to drive with caution rather than blindly follow the posted limits. [/rant]

Walkinshaw · 24-05-2006, 09:47 AM

These timed school zones are a DISGRACE. There is no way that people should be expected to have an atomic clock in their car to maintain exact time so they don't breach a variable speed limit.

I'd love to hear this

"why did you run into the back of that car"

"well officer, i was trying to workout what the time was, as required by those signs back there"

Flashing lights/electronic variable speed signs, or FIXED speed zones. SIMPLE. If they cant 'afford' to install electronic/flasing speed signs, drop the zone to 40kmh PERMINANTLY.

Stop the confusion. Although thats what governments run off. Confused public.

4.9 EF Futura · 24-05-2006, 09:52 AM

I think i prefer the timed zones as opposed to "when children are present".

Have been going past such a zone at 50, late at night... see someone in the shadows on the footpath.... "was that a kid? Hmmm... hope not coz that puts me 25 over the limit!"

Walkinshaw · 24-05-2006, 09:56 AM

Fact of the matter is, no amount of complaining here will fix the underlying issue. People in governments with little to know ecconomic rational.

One kid is hit (injured but not killed)
Add up the cost of imediate medical bills
Add up the cost of on going medical bills
Add up the cost of insurance claims, vehicle damage, legal costs
Add up the cost of lost "productivity" of parents/gardians/school teachers
Add up the cost of police investigation/medical responce
Add up the cost of loss of "productivity" for people who are held up at the scene by the accident.

The total of these (and MANY MORE) is the total community cost for an accident involving NO serious injury/fatality.

Now, I would be fairly confident that the above accident would have a total cost nearing the $500,000 mark. Add in a fatality and loss of income for individuals and the total loss would be closer to the $5million mark.

I wonder how much a propper variable speed sign system costs per school???