GM claims 'breakthrough' will make vehicles lighter, help fuel mileage

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Australian made cars need to spend more time in wind tunnells, is there a wind tunnell in Australia ? FG Falcon has a coefficient of drag of 0.35 which is one of the reasons why they use more fuel than is necessary.

I don't think making some of the body panels out of aluminium is going to save much weight but it will add to the cost of production. Looks like GM are trying to curry some favour with the public...bottom line is talk is cheap, just build them and we'll see.

Ford have a pretty new wind tunnel out at the Proving Ground. Its only 2 or 3 years old. I'm betting that the 2014 upgrade will be the first Falcon to take full advantage of it as they have already stated that aero improvements will play a part in the 7-8% fuel economy improvements they are claiming for it.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

Yes but if holden use it then its NEW TECHNOLOGY.
Remember......The commodore has SIDI! Spark Ignition! I mean whoa....Thats a first for any combustion engine.

Holden's Hype Acronym Advertising Team did a real SHIDI job on that one didn't they!

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford have a pretty new wind tunnel out at the Proving Ground. Its only 2 or 3 years old. I'm betting that the 2014 upgrade will be the first Falcon to take full advantage of it as they have already stated that aero improvements will play a part in the 7-8% fuel economy improvements they are claiming for it.

Well if it gets the styling similar to the new Fusion, it could hit drag coefficients of the AU.

Hell the new Fusion has a better CD with .27

[FPV GTHO]

You can only lower the Cd so much by only doing the front bumper and maybe the bonnet. Significant changes would need less flaring in the guards and more rake in the front windscreen, the latter of which has a snowballs chance in hell of happening.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Holden's Hype Acronym Advertising Team did a real SHIDI job on that one didn't they!

Ford do the same thing. no biggie.
Computer torque control... Efi? Wonder if they invented that one...

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Ford do the same thing. no biggie.
Computer torque control... Efi? Wonder if they invented that one...

Yeah... but those are actual acronyms. CTC isn't exactly defineable... could be engine mapping, could be computer controlled ABS. EFI tells you it's not carburettored.

Spark Ignition Direct Injection. So.... it's Direct Injection. What else are they going to ignite it with? Redhead matches in the block?

[boris]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And that work on carbon fibre brought the cost way down from over 300/kg to under $30/kg but the
problem is that carbon fibre is still around $22/kg where as steel is around $5/kg and Aluminium somewhere in between.
The fact tha Mulally ordered a thorough review of the costs of composites which concluded that they are still too expensive
is the main reason why you're seeing the push on Aluminium in next F150 , having a global glut on supplies also helps too..

Ah but, thermo forging was able to use cheaper forms of carbon fibre and the over all cost of building a chassis, assembling it etc was 60% of the cost of steel, so while the raw materials may cost more because of the manufacturing process it ended up cheaper. However their are a lot of industries/jobs that rely on the car industry using steel/aluminium. Thermo forging is is far less labour intensive and tooling less expensive and last longer.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

You can only lower the Cd so much by only doing the front bumper and maybe the bonnet. Significant changes would need less flaring in the guards and more rake in the front windscreen, the latter of which has a snowballs chance in hell of happening.

There is probably just as good a gain controlling the airflow under the car by smoothing out the underbody, and also in controlling the airflow around the wheelwells. The Ferrari 458 excels in these areas, they have vents at the front that flows air through the wheelwells and out through a vent in the rear corner of the bonnet. Or is it the F12 Berlinetta?

Originally Posted by MethodX

Ford do the same thing. no biggie.
Computer torque control... Efi? Wonder if they invented that one...

Computer torque control referred to the variable length inlet manifold fitted for the EF. Switching the length of the inlet runners via a set of throttle butterflies controlled the torque at different rev points. But from what I can remember it was controlled by vacuum so go figure. But I guess the ECU had to compensate when it switched over.

[Falcman0o7]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Yeah... but those are actual acronyms. CTC isn't exactly defineable... could be engine mapping, could be computer controlled ABS. EFI tells you it's not carburettored.

Spark Ignition Direct Injection. So.... it's Direct Injection. What else are they going to ignite it with? Redhead matches in the block?

RAPMSL!

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

There is probably just as good a gain controlling the airflow under the car by smoothing out the underbody, and also in controlling the airflow around the wheelwells. The Ferrari 458 excels in these areas, they have vents at the front that flows air through the wheelwells and out through a vent in the rear corner of the bonnet. Or is it the F12 Berlinetta?

Definitely a lot to be gained in the underbody area, but something like a supercar would be looking just as much, if not more, for underbody aero. Supercars like the original McLaren F1, MP4-12C, Ferrari Enzo all generate a lot of underbody aero so they don't need a big rear wing and save drag that way. It's all the same science though and basically centres around a flat floor to some degree.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

Yes but if holden use it then its NEW TECHNOLOGY.
Remember......The commodore has SIDI! Spark Ignition! I mean whoa....Thats a first for any combustion engine.

And Ford are too stupid to think of something different to set their cars apart...Hence why Holden has been miles ahead in the sales area, especially when comparing the Falcon to the Commodore.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

And Ford are too stupid to think of something different to set their cars apart...Hence why Holden has been miles ahead in the sales area, especially when comparing the Falcon to the Commodore.

Tell me what Commodore has a ultra-modern turbo 4?

Also, what locally made SUV has a nice little diesel?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Tell me what Commodore has a ultra-modern turbo 4?

Also, what locally made SUV has a nice little diesel?

Frustration of Ford fans, they see Holden sales marginally better and assume things must be better over there.
Holden is discounting crazy out of their car because they are feeling the pinch just like Ford.

[Cambo351]

I have two Jaguars, a 2005 XJR which has the full aluminium body, and a 2005 X-Type which is made of steel. Anyone who's seen these two cars side by side knows how much bigger the XJ is than the X-Type and how much extra stuff there is in the XJ too.

When the XJ & X-Type both have the 3.0L V6, they are close as dammit to the same weight. That is quite an acheivement given the size of the XJ. Even the 4.2L Supercharged XJ is only 120KG heavier than the V6 X-Type.

My XJR weighs 1665KG. The new Falcon GT is what, 1852KG? (published kerb weights)
Falcon is already fairly light when you think about it?

TBH i can't see full-alloy construction ever being used on a Falcon or Commodore, it would push the price/costs up too much. Look at Jag they still use steel on the XF, otherwise the production costs would be up not far behind the XJ.

But, the XF does have an alloy bonnet (even the old S-Type had one!) and that alone saves a lot of weight & improves weight distribution...at the very least the Falcon & Dunnydoor should get alloy bonnets.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Tell me what Commodore has a ultra-modern turbo 4?

Also, what locally made SUV has a nice little diesel?

and that ultra modern turbo 4 has been a rip roaring success hasnt it?
The people on this forum seem like the only people that know about it.

They are both Yank multinationals. So whats the Difference..
Ford makes one bolt in Geelong so they are dinky di?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Yeah... but those are actual acronyms. CTC isn't exactly defineable... could be engine mapping, could be computer controlled ABS. EFI tells you it's not carburettored.

Spark Ignition Direct Injection. So.... it's Direct Injection. What else are they going to ignite it with? Redhead matches in the block?

Compression Ignition, like real engines

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by MethodX

and that ultra modern turbo 4 has been a rip roaring success hasnt it?
The people on this forum seem like the only people that know about it.

They are both Yank multinationals. So whats the Difference..
Ford makes one bolt in Geelong so they are dinky di?

Whoa...someone has dropped an angry pill...


The question was...

Originally Posted by svo supporter

And Ford are too stupid to think of something different to set their cars apart...Hence why Holden has been miles ahead in the sales area, especially when comparing the Falcon to the Commodore.

And the answer is, yes, ford have done alot to set their cars apart...


Just like the R-spec, currently the quickest aussie car, then there is the EcoLPI...miles ahead of the Gm-H equivalent...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Range rover/Landrover had alinimum bodies years ago....60's or 70's????Maybe earlier....Might be wrong with the brand but it's ben round for a fair few years.

Gluing panels has been round for ages too....It's still in use....Recently I watch a program on Peterbuilt trucks...They glue the majority of the cab together.

So nothing new with techology

They rivett them, not weld.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Frustration of Ford fans, they see Holden sales marginally better and assume things must be better over there.
Holden is discounting crazy out of their car because they are feeling the pinch just like Ford.

This place is absolutely obsessed with Holden. You never see these threads about Ford on Holden, Mazda, Hyundai, or Toyota forums. It would be interesting to see what psychological theories there are about this.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And that is only an estimate..... Wikki quotes 1998 AU at 0.295, 1995 Falcon 0.31, I would expect that the regular FGs are just as good if not better...

VN Commodore = 0.34
VN Group A = Less than 0.30
VT Commodore = 0.32
Monaro = 0.31
VX Commodore = 0.329
VX Commodore SS Spoiler = 0.354
VY Commodore = 0.319
VY Commodore S Spoiler = 0.326
VY Commodore SS Spoiler = 0.334
VE Commodore = 0.354
VE Commodore Series II = 0.330
VE Commodore Series II + Rear Wing = 0.35+
WK Statesman = 0.30
ECOmmodore = 0.28

XF Falcon = 0.42
EA Falcon = 0.34
EF Falcon = 0.31
AU Falcon Sedan = 0.295
AU Falcon Wagon = 0.341

2010 Toyota Prius = 0.25
2002 Toyota Camry = 0.30
2003 Toyota Camry = 0.29
2010 Toyota Camry Hybrid = 0.27
2007 Toyota Aurion = 0.301
2007 Toyota Aurion Sportivo = 0.292

Amazing how backwards the VE went. It's also worth noting that the number is a coefficient....the other factor is frontal area. Aerodynamics are a function of the coefficient AND frontal area, the smaller the car the more wind efficient it is even if it has the same coefficient number of a larger car.

[Cambo351]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Range rover/Landrover had alinimum bodies years ago....60's or 70's????Maybe earlier....Might be wrong with the brand but it's ben round for a fair few years.

Gluing panels has been round for ages too....It's still in use....Recently I watch a program on Peterbuilt trucks...They glue the majority of the cab together.

So nothing new with techology

Originally Posted by Brazen

They rivett them, not weld.

That's right, but the Land Rovers from decades ago can't be compared to the ally Jaguars and new Range Rover.

Landrover Defender = Steel Chassis with bolt-on Alloy body, which was mostly rivetted.

Jaguar XJ & new XK = Full monocoque alloy body using self-piercing rivets (and some glueing)

New Range Rover (L405) = same as the XJ & XK

"...the (new) Range Rover is built using a similar process to Jaguar’s all-aluminium construction technique, which joins pressed aluminium panels together with boron steel rivets to aerospace levels of accuracy.

No spot welds are required to make the world’s first all-aluminium monocoque SUV (the original MkI Defender of 1948 wore an aluminium body made from recycled aircraft bodies), which also saves power in the manufacturing process."

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Brazen

They rivett them, not weld.

My gluing comment was referring to the Peterbuilt trucks.....The majority of the cab frame work is glued together.....They showed it on a program called megafactories a few weeks ago. I didn't mention anything about welding.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Whoa...someone has dropped an angry pill...


The question was...




And the answer is, yes, ford have done alot to set their cars apart...


Just like the R-spec, currently the quickest aussie car, then there is the EcoLPI...miles ahead of the Gm-H equivalent...

Ford may set their cars apart in the eyes of this forums members, but the Holden Commodore seem to be on top of the sales race when compared to Ford Falcon.



So why would this be the case then?

[Falcman0o7]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

And Ford are too stupid to think of something different to set their cars apart...Hence why Holden has been miles ahead in the sales area, especially when comparing the Falcon to the Commodore.

Nice avatar and signiture your obviously a true ford supporter.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Falcman0o7

Nice avatar and signiture your obviously a true ford supporter.

I hate most cars....Comes from earning a living fixing the buggers.

So I'm not one eyed...Hate them all evenly.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Compression Ignition, like real engines

On a non Diesel? But you did just give Holden an idea for the Colorado. Compression Ignition Direct Injection. :P

Originally Posted by Nikked

Tell me what Commodore has a ultra-modern turbo 4?

But how many people know that it has 4T?

Not many besides the enthusiasts.


Speaking of Aluminium panels over a steel chassis, that's tipped to be the way Ford might handle the F-150:
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/27/w...t-f-150-maybe/

Things like small one piece items; doors, and lids, would be an easier transition to lightening up cars. Hopefully our locally made Fords can get some cash for that sort of venture.