Engineers call for new Australian auto policy

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by SB076

Not just that, was talking to a person in the defence industry - he was telling me defence uniforms are manufactured overseas, munitions and ammunition the same - I was interested to hear more but he was pushed for time. I sincerely hope he was wrong.

Guides Australia uniforms are made in China. Why? When surveyed, parents preferenced cheap over Aussie made. The uniforms stil aren't cheap, we've had endless problems with supply and sizing to the point where some girls (as young as 6) think they're fat, because in the uniform they're a size 12, and the quality is rubbish.

People/companies are looking to save a buck wherever they can, and it will be to the detriment of the Aussie manufacturing industry.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by westy73

As of 2011 (couldn't get my hands on more recent data/stats for this) the ratio of local to imported was 15 % local, 85 % imported.

In the USA for the same time was 77% local and 23 % imported. Now I am not sure what the reason for this is other than Americans are more patriotic than we are and will support their local manufacturers.

As far as I know Hyundai, Kia and Honda all have manufacturing plants in America. There could be more.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by ute83

As far as I know Hyundai, Kia and Honda all have manufacturing plants in America. There could be more.

Which is why I quoted their imported numbers and made reference to only that. Also highlighted our imported numbers as well. It was a comment about imports vs local manufacturing hence the stats provided.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by ute83

As far as I know Hyundai, Kia and Honda all have manufacturing plants in America. There could be more.

Plus it also highlights America wants manufacturing to be a large part of their economy and we simply don't.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ute83

As far as I know Hyundai, Kia and Honda all have manufacturing plants in America. There could be more.

And they do this to avoid tariffs the US has on imports, and the incentives the US Government gives foreign manufacturers to build cars in the US.

Pity our stupid government won't do this.

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by prydey

there are more brands and models sold in australia than any other country in the world. there are more brands in australia than america. they may have some that we dont, we may have some that they dont, but the number in australia is higher.

I really dont see that being the case other than fear mongering. Why would every car manufacturer in the world choose a tiny populous over one of if not the biggest market place in the world? Most supercar manufactuers for one dont officially sell in Aus due to building LHD cars, however they all sell in America. All the Japanese/Chinese/Koreans sell in America, there's all the American brands, hell GM has Holden, Isuzu here (and Opel?) In America GM alone has Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Isuzu, Opel and several other Japanese manufacturers

The only Aus exclusive Ford models are Falcon and Territory, meanwhile there's Mustangs, F Trucks, etc that aren't sold here but are sold in the States.

Originally Posted by westy73

As of 2011 (couldn't get my hands on more recent data/stats for this) the ratio of local to imported was 15 % local, 85 % imported.

In the USA for the same time was 77% local and 23 % imported. Now I am not sure what the reason for this is other than Americans are more patriotic than we are and will support their local manufacturers.

Alot of brands available in America also have plants there, making them locally manufactured. That isn't worthwhile for most car brands available in Australia to to the high cost and low volume.

Local Australian manufacturers have stuck with what worked decades ago and haven't evolved with the times, people moved to small cars, SUVs and 4X4s but the two main locals stuck to their ways and put most of their attention on their large cars.

When the local market isn't adequately providing the product that the market as a whole is seeking, then you have to look to the evil imports which do provide what the market is looking for.

[mik]

Originally Posted by SB076

Not just that, was talking to a person in the defence industry - he was telling me defence uniforms are manufactured overseas, munitions and ammunition the same - I was interested to hear more but he was pushed for time. I sincerely hope he was wrong.

And isn't that an absolute travesty, i have no doubt the bloke is not exaggerating, you only have to walk into any shop and read the made in label , 99% chance it will not be made in Australia.

[mik]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

I really dont see that being the case other than fear mongering. Why would every car manufacturer in the world choose a tiny populous over one of if not the biggest market place in the world? Most supercar manufactuers for one dont officially sell in Aus due to building LHD cars, however they all sell in America. All the Japanese/Chinese/Koreans sell in America, there's all the American brands, hell GM has Holden, Isuzu here (and Opel?) In America GM alone has Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Isuzu, Opel and several other Japanese manufacturers

The only Aus exclusive Ford models are Falcon and Territory, meanwhile there's Mustangs, F Trucks, etc that aren't sold here but are sold in the States.



Alot of brands available in America also have plants there, making them locally manufactured. That isn't worthwhile for most car brands available in Australia to to the high cost and low volume.

Local Australian manufacturers have stuck with what worked decades ago and haven't evolved with the times, people moved to small cars, SUVs and 4X4s but the two main locals stuck to their ways and put most of their attention on their large cars.

When the local market isn't adequately providing the product that the market as a whole is seeking, then you have to look to the evil imports which do provide what the market is looking for.

Contrary to your beliefs, US does protect its car industry far more than Australia does.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

I really dont see that being the case other than fear mongering. Why would every car manufacturer in the world choose a tiny populous over one of if not the biggest market place in the world? Most supercar manufactuers for one dont officially sell in Aus due to building LHD cars, however they all sell in America. All the Japanese/Chinese/Koreans sell in America, there's all the American brands, hell GM has Holden, Isuzu here (and Opel?) In America GM alone has Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Isuzu, Opel and several other Japanese manufacturers

The only Aus exclusive Ford models are Falcon and Territory, meanwhile there's Mustangs, F Trucks, etc that aren't sold here but are sold in the States.



Alot of brands available in America also have plants there, making them locally manufactured. That isn't worthwhile for most car brands available in Australia to to the high cost and low volume.

Local Australian manufacturers have stuck with what worked decades ago and haven't evolved with the times, people moved to small cars, SUVs and 4X4s but the two main locals stuck to their ways and put most of their attention on their large cars.

When the local market isn't adequately providing the product that the market as a whole is seeking, then you have to look to the evil imports which do provide what the market is looking for.

Ok so this thread was highlighting that even engineers think aus manufacturing can continue if we get smarter. Contrary to your thinking the aus market has been diluted by flooding of evil imports and all we do is sit navel gazing and watching it happen. IMO the market is large enough for local manufacturers to survive and be profitable. The problem is it takes some balls for a CEO to commit to technology to improve the process. This has sadly been lacking but the Falcon and Terry products are bloody good so it's a crime they haven't been exported themselves and there are still buyers for both.

[Xauterus]

I wonder what would have happened if Ford had offered the Falcon powered by the Renault diesel that came in the Ford Transit.
I think there would have been a fair percentage of buyers that would have bought a car for fuel economy and size.
I ponder if ten years ago that Ford had no intention of really developing cars that would be built locally to supply general population. I believe they needed the Australian engineers to help product design as asia is devoid of innovation. The Chinese can copy, but where are the new ideas?
Look at large companies like Bonds Clothing and Sidchrome tools. They could not wait to move their operations overseas to use much cheaper labour.
Ford is no different, why would it be interested in making a car locally when you can make it for a fraction of the cost overseas? Why aim for 10% profit when you could have 50% profit.
Lets make no mistake with Ford Australia, It is all about the size of the profit, nothing to do with emotion and keeping jobs in Australia. Its a business and they dont care who makes it.

[adz790]

High German wages? Average Australian wage is still much higher than the German average wage especially when it comes it trades.

[westy73]

Originally Posted by Xauterus

I wonder what would have happened if Ford had offered the Falcon powered by the Renault diesel that came in the Ford Transit.
I think there would have been a fair percentage of buyers that would have bought a car for fuel economy and size.
I ponder if ten years ago that Ford had no intention of really developing cars that would be built locally to supply general population. I believe they needed the Australian engineers to help product design as asia is devoid of innovation. The Chinese can copy, but where are the new ideas?
Look at large companies like Bonds Clothing and Sidchrome tools. They could not wait to move their operations overseas to use much cheaper labour.
Ford is no different, why would it be interested in making a car locally when you can make it for a fraction of the cost overseas? Why aim for 10% profit when you could have 50% profit.
Lets make no mistake with Ford Australia, It is all about the size of the profit, nothing to do with emotion and keeping jobs in Australia. Its a business and they dont care who makes it.

I guess the big problem I foresee is that all of this will change. The OZ dollar will drop in value and become normal at some point in the next few years. When we see it around 60-70c US what then ? We will have stuffed up our opportunity to invest in technology locally and be paying a premium for imports.
This doesn't seem like a sound investment or business plan at all other than allowing the large companies in the end to hold us to ransom on pricing. At least with a local industry we can offer competition. The big picture is what everyone is missing due to the Aussie dollar remaining a record levels for so long. This will change and without the forward investment to future proof our manufacturing industry we simply will pay what we're asked to pay period.
The Government knows this but chooses to bury its head in the sand and say she'll be right. Crazy.

[mik]

Originally Posted by adz790

High German wages? Average Australian wage is still much higher than the German average wage especially when it comes it trades.

You hear average wage figures bandied about about all the time, my own view is the class divide is alive and well, and I suspect a lot of the population is below "the average wage".

[prydey]

Originally Posted by mik

You hear average wage figures bandied about about all the time, my own view is the class divide is alive and well, and I suspect a lot of the population is below "the average wage".

this!!

the fat cats are dragging the average up, not the general population.

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by westy73

Ok so this thread was highlighting that even engineers think aus manufacturing can continue if we get smarter. Contrary to your thinking the aus market has been diluted by flooding of evil imports and all we do is sit navel gazing and watching it happen. IMO the market is large enough for local manufacturers to survive and be profitable. The problem is it takes some balls for a CEO to commit to technology to improve the process. This has sadly been lacking but the Falcon and Terry products are bloody good so it's a crime they haven't been exported themselves and there are still buyers for both.

Holden, Ford and Toyota still sell really well. The cheap Japanese/Korean cars sell in high numbers too but alot of other imports are sold at ridiculously high prices. The problem isnt this supposed flooding of the market where the poor old locals cant sell their product, its the locals not adequately providing what people want. Whats one of in not the biggest seller thesedays? Diesel SUVs. Thats something Ford Aus doesnt provide, that cant be blammed on the evil foreigners coming in and stealing our jewbs and selling cars the populous actually wants to use.

Originally Posted by mik

Contrary to your beliefs, US does protect its car industry far more than Australia does.

Its protected but every manufacturer on earth sells in America.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

The problem isnt this supposed flooding of the market where the poor old locals cant sell their product, its the locals not adequately providing what people want. Whats one of in not the biggest seller thesedays? Diesel SUVs. Thats something Ford Aus doesnt provide, that cant be blammed on the evil foreigners coming in and stealing our jewbs and selling cars the populous actually wants to use.

so, what would you call a diesel territory?

and FoA don't have to build what sells well if that product is already being built and available here. FoA were tasked with building the large car platform. Ford offers a whole range of vehicles in australia and is in the top 5 makes in the country. there seems to be this thought that because falcon isn't doing well, ford isn't doing well.

if the e class mercedes sales died, do you think they would change that product to something else? or would they continue to build the e class? why do people expect ford to change the falcon into something else?

the large car segment has tanked. economies of scale make continuing to build the large car locally a non viable proposition. in case anyone thinks it unique to ford, wait to see what happens if mr abbot follows through on his funding cut. holdens promises will mean nothing then (as usual).

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Holden, Ford and Toyota still sell really well. The cheap Japanese/Korean cars sell in high numbers too but alot of other imports are sold at ridiculously high prices. The problem isnt this supposed flooding of the market where the poor old locals cant sell their product, its the locals not adequately providing what people want. Whats one of in not the biggest seller thesedays? Diesel SUVs. Thats something Ford Aus doesnt provide, that cant be blammed on the evil foreigners coming in and stealing our jewbs and selling cars the populous actually wants to use.



Its protected but every manufacturer on earth sells in America.

i bet you have the biggest flatscreen in your street and love double parking out the front of schools....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Holden, Ford and Toyota still sell really well. The cheap Japanese/Korean cars sell in high numbers too but alot of other imports are sold at ridiculously high prices. The problem isnt this supposed flooding of the market where the poor old locals cant sell their product, its the locals not adequately providing what people want. Whats one of in not the biggest seller thesedays? Diesel SUVs. Thats something Ford Aus doesnt provide, that cant be blammed on the evil foreigners coming in and stealing our jewbs and selling cars the populous actually wants to use.



Its protected but every manufacturer on earth sells in America.

Its a fact Australia has more manufacturers selling cars here than America does. I can name a few right now that sell here and not in the US- Skoda, Alfa Romeo, Great Wall, Opal etc. And Suzuki are pulling out of the US, or already have. There are plenty more.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Holden, Ford and Toyota still sell really well. The cheap Japanese/Korean cars sell in high numbers too but alot of other imports are sold at ridiculously high prices. The problem isnt this supposed flooding of the market where the poor old locals cant sell their product, its the locals not adequately providing what people want. Whats one of in not the biggest seller thesedays? Diesel SUVs. Thats something Ford Aus doesnt provide, that cant be blammed on the evil foreigners coming in and stealing our jewbs and selling cars the populous actually wants to use.



Its protected but every manufacturer on earth sells in America.

You might want to check the sales chart before commenting. If youi did, you'll be lucky to find more than 1 or 2 in the top ten!!

[mr smith]

Working in manufacturing, we have been talking lately a lot at work about the state of this country and what seems to be the end of local manufacturing as a whole.
Now this is not about who you are going to vote for, but its no secret Labour are going to get smashed. Why would they not announce massive protection for manufacturers and incentives for new companies? They have nothing to lose and may it may even bring back their core supporters.
Is there a higher agenda that is dictating to all parties? Just to let over a century of quality manufacturing die just doesn't feel right.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Why would they not announce massive protection for manufacturers and incentives for new companies? They have nothing to lose and may it may even bring back their core supporters.
Is there a higher agenda that is dictating to all parties?

the general population have the opinion that propping up the industry is a waste. if they announced protection schemes, it would more than likely be the same as falling on their sword. maybe i'm not giving the voting public much credit, but the 'support' for local manufacturing would be far outweighed by those who think its a waste of taxpayer money, and that tariffs are robbing us of enjoying all those cheap products that all the other countries enjoy.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by prydey

the general population have the opinion that propping up the industry is a waste. if they announced protection schemes, it would more than likely be the same as falling on their sword. maybe i'm not giving the voting public much credit, but the 'support' for local manufacturing would be far outweighed by those who think its a waste of taxpayer money, and that tariffs are robbing us of enjoying all those cheap products that all the other countries enjoy.

No. you're giving them all the credit they deserve. The crap about manufacturing in my facebook feed is proof of that.

When in actual fact, protecting manufacturing is an ideal motion, we won't have our finite mining resources forever....

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by prydey

the general population have the opinion that propping up the industry is a waste. if they announced protection schemes, it would more than likely be the same as falling on their sword. maybe i'm not giving the voting public much credit, but the 'support' for local manufacturing would be far outweighed by those who think its a waste of taxpayer money, and that tariffs are robbing us of enjoying all those cheap products that all the other countries enjoy.

Maybe 6 months ago, but I think the reality is hitting home. I know a few blokes who have now put two and two together now their kids cant get decent jobs or now they have just got the *** from where they worked for 20 years and are working in Bunnings. I feel the time is right.
Now I am not for either party but rusted on Libs wouldn't support it but they wouldn't vote Labour anyways, I recon Labour have nothing too lose.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Is there a higher agenda that is dictating to all parties? Just to let over a century of quality manufacturing die just doesn't feel right.

Google "free trade taliban" and see what you get.

What we have now is the result of career policymakers and bureaucrats pushing an ideology that to them is more important than the national interest. Regardless of which political party is in power at the time, there is one thing that stays constant: the public service. It is within the public service these people exist, and have done so for a generation, probably straight from uni imbued with an unhealthy dose of globalist ideology and probably do lecturing stints part time so that the next generation of policymakers are steered along "the right path" which in actual fact is destroying ourselves from the inside.

Some of these people have probably never had a "real" job in their lives, let alone stepped foot into anything remotely like an industrial operation. I recall about a month ago one of the "opinion" writers for The Drum on ABC was dribbling on about how bad subsidies were, and then buried right down in the body of the article was the nugget: "we should not walk away from our free trade obligations". What obligations might they be? A lop-sided legal agreement that benefits one trading partner over another? This guy's occupation of "Research Fellow" of some university explained it all and demonstrated to me that people like him should not be allowed anywhere near any form of government policy job that involves money, people's jobs, and the law. But this is what you are up against, because he isnt the only one and there are many others that have gone before him that have contributed to the damage that is unfolding today.

[Franco Cozzo]

Not even Government supports Australian made.

Centrelink is forcing all its staff to wear uniform, and they've had it all made in Bangladesh, and they've had problems with sizing and quality and its gone back/forwards multiple times.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Google "free trade taliban" and see what you get.

What we have now is the result of career policymakers and bureaucrats pushing an ideology that to them is more important than the national interest. Regardless of which political party is in power at the time, there is one thing that stays constant: the public service. It is within the public service these people exist, and have done so for a generation, probably straight from uni imbued with an unhealthy dose of globalist ideology and probably do lecturing stints part time so that the next generation of policymakers are steered along "the right path" which in actual fact is destroying ourselves from the inside.

Some of these people have probably never had a "real" job in their lives, let alone stepped foot into anything remotely like an industrial operation. I recall about a month ago one of the "opinion" writers for The Drum on ABC was dribbling on about how bad subsidies were, and then buried right down in the body of the article was the nugget: "we should not walk away from our free trade obligations". What obligations might they be? A lop-sided legal agreement that benefits one trading partner over another? This guy's occupation of "Research Fellow" of some university explained it all and demonstrated to me that people like him should not be allowed anywhere near any form of government policy job that involves money, people's jobs, and the law. But this is what you are up against, because he isnt the only one and there are many others that have gone before him that have contributed to the damage that is unfolding today.

During my time at university, I soon learned that many of the learned people I crossed paths with were hothouse flowers and could not function in the real world. University was an enclave of smart (in their field of study) people with not a scrap of intelligence between them. Yet somehow, the rubbish they disseminate from the confines of sterile academia makes its way into society, with damaging results, especially when ideology overrides all sensibilities.

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

You might want to check the sales chart before commenting. If youi did, you'll be lucky to find more than 1 or 2 in the top ten!!

2 Diesel SUVs in the top 10 is still a huge market share. They sell really well, there's no arguing that.

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its a fact Australia has more manufacturers selling cars here than America does. I can name a few right now that sell here and not in the US- Skoda, Alfa Romeo, Great Wall, Opal etc. And Suzuki are pulling out of the US, or already have. There are plenty more.

Chevrolet, GMC, Koenigsegg, Bugatti, Vauxhall, Buick, Cadillac an=mong many others do sell in America but dont sell here in Australia. Seriously this "oh woe is us, poor Australia swarmed by foreigners" is redneck America logic. We really dont have it as bad as people want it to be to explain local manufacturing diminishing. The locals focused on the wrong markets and tjhe imports provide cheaper cars and/or more tech.

Originally Posted by pottery beige

i bet you have the biggest flatscreen in your street and love double parking out the front of schools....

50" probably not the biggest, its a long street and I never have to park out front of schools.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by superyob

During my time at university, I soon learned that many of the learned people I crossed paths with were hothouse flowers and could not function in the real world. University was an enclave of smart (in their field of study) people with not a scrap of intelligence between them. Yet somehow, the rubbish they disseminate from the confines of sterile academia makes its way into society, with damaging results, especially when ideology overrides all sensibilities.

Agreed. It's usually those who have gone from a BA, to an MA to a PHD, then lecture that have no clue (and oddly, these are probably 60-80% of the "studies" we see having weighting on decisions), and by no clue I mean, no clue outside of their bubble.

It kinda makes me want to NOT get a PHD.....

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by lotski

Agreed. It's usually those who have gone from a BA, to an MA to a PHD, then lecture that have no clue (and oddly, these are probably 60-80% of the "studies" we see having weighting on decisions), and by no clue I mean, no clue outside of their bubble.

It kinda makes me want to NOT get a PHD.....

Doesn't PHD stand for Permanent Head Damage

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Doesn't PHD stand for Permanent Head Damage

For many, yes. The year I got my BEng, two PhD graduates got their doctorate for investigating the nutritional content of two minute noodles. I honestly have no clue how that helps them, or society.

However, for me, and most of my immediate/extended family, it has/will mean more career opportunities and a decent payrise. Of course, one has to do valuable research for it for that to happen ;)

Also, lol at my phone capitalising all of PhD in my previous post, making it mean two completely dufferent things.