Toyota vs electric lobby

[ozpacman]

I think the entire electric vehicle thing is a case of horses for courses. Electric vehicles are probably fine and dandy if you live in a major city and you don't need to cart stuff. Toyota is looking to service the car buying public in not only the cities, but the regional and remote areas as well, and they've been doing that since the 60's.

I have a dirty old climate killing diesel ute and I love it. It's now 17 years old and cost me 20 grand when it was near new. I look after it and it's repaid me with absolute reliability, and it's probably still worth 10 grand. It's presently parked in the back yard loaded with an air compressor, an engine crane, an engine stand, a pallet jack, a 3kva generator, a large tool box full of crap and various other bits and pieces including carry racks with several five plus metre lengths of timber strapped on top. It's also hooked up to a 8'x4'6" heavy box trailer carrying a 1700cc motorcycle.

I'm heading off early tomorrow morning on a 1400 km road trip which I do about four times a year. I'll be there late tomorrow night or early Tuesday morning. It generally takes be about 18 to 20 hours. Yeah, she sucks a bit of diesel but when she's getting low I can pull in, fuel up and be back on my way in under 10 minutes.

Now, can someone tell me what sort of electric vehicle I could buy for a reasonable price that will accomplish that trip any quicker and easier?

Horses for courses.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

I think the entire electric vehicle thing is a case of horses for courses. Electric vehicles are probably fine and dandy if you live in a major city and you don't need to cart stuff. Toyota is looking to service the car buying public in not only the cities, but the regional and remote areas as well, and they've been doing that since the 60's.

I have a dirty old climate killing diesel ute and I love it. It's now 17 years old and cost me 20 grand when it was near new. I look after it and it's repaid me with absolute reliability, and it's probably still worth 10 grand. It's presently parked in the back yard loaded with an air compressor, an engine crane, an engine stand, a pallet jack, a 3kva generator, a large tool box full of crap and various other bits and pieces including carry racks with several five plus metre lengths of timber strapped on top. It's also hooked up to a 8'x4'6" heavy box trailer carrying a 1700cc motorcycle.

I'm heading off early tomorrow morning on a 1400 km road trip which I do about four times a year. I'll be there late tomorrow night or early Tuesday morning. It generally takes be about 18 to 20 hours. Yeah, she sucks a bit of diesel but when she's getting low I can pull in, fuel up and be back on my way in under 10 minutes.

Now, can someone tell me what sort of electric vehicle I could buy for a reasonable price that will accomplish that trip any quicker and easier?

Horses for courses.

Just hire a car for the 4 times a year you do that drive. Rest of the time, the EV will work just fine for daily use.

Takes 15 minutes to top up the newer battery types but range will obviously be not as much as a diesel.

I use our EV to tow my Mini race car (1500kgs with trailer). Does it fantastically well.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

I think the entire electric vehicle thing is a case of horses for courses. Electric vehicles are probably fine and dandy if you live in a major city and you don't need to cart stuff. Toyota is looking to service the car buying public in not only the cities, but the regional and remote areas as well, and they've been doing that since the 60's.

I have a dirty old climate killing diesel ute and I love it. It's now 17 years old and cost me 20 grand when it was near new. I look after it and it's repaid me with absolute reliability, and it's probably still worth 10 grand. It's presently parked in the back yard loaded with an air compressor, an engine crane, an engine stand, a pallet jack, a 3kva generator, a large tool box full of crap and various other bits and pieces including carry racks with several five plus metre lengths of timber strapped on top. It's also hooked up to a 8'x4'6" heavy box trailer carrying a 1700cc motorcycle.

I'm heading off early tomorrow morning on a 1400 km road trip which I do about four times a year. I'll be there late tomorrow night or early Tuesday morning. It generally takes be about 18 to 20 hours. Yeah, she sucks a bit of diesel but when she's getting low I can pull in, fuel up and be back on my way in under 10 minutes.

Now, can someone tell me what sort of electric vehicle I could buy for a reasonable price that will accomplish that trip any quicker and easier?

Horses for courses.

Today-not much.
Five years-change some will /might fit your spec.
Ten year-some will fit your spec plus other options might exist hydrogen

Who knows but change is the only constant
Govco will legislate against dirty recreational diesels in time

[ozpacman]

Originally Posted by kypez

Just hire a car for the 4 times a year you do that drive. Rest of the time, the EV will work just fine for daily use.

Takes 15 minutes to top up the newer battery types but range will obviously be not as much as a diesel.

I use our EV to tow my Mini race car (1500kgs with trailer). Does it fantastically well.

See, this is why I say that EV's are 'horses for courses' - they just don't suit for my usage. Hiring is out of the question as I use my ute a lot more than 4 times a year, for all sorts of tasks that they're just so suited to.

I get what you're saying re the 15 minute 'top up', but is that sort of time frame applicable when you've exhausted the battery on, say a 300 or 400 km leg of a journey and need to recharge to continue on?

How far do you tow your race car? I can understand it would be okay over comparatively short distances, but how is the battery range when towing on a long trip? I'm genuinely interested as reports from the USA on testing of the Ford F150 EV when towing a load were pretty dismal from what I recall reading.

[Franco Cozzo]

Hydrogen fuel cell is a waste of time on light vehicles - current energy density of batteries is fine for light vehicles.

Plus you have to create hydrogen from electrolysis, compress it, pump it into tanks, transfer it to a truck, pump it into another tank, then pump it into the tank of the car which then oxidises it into electricity.

With an EV you plug it into the wall

The only scenario that hydrogen fuel cells make sense is commercial vehicles like prime movers, where you can't have batteries equivalent to the energy density of 1500L of diesel because that's 30 tonnes worth of batteries, which means 30 tonnes less cargo in your trailer because of GCM limitations.

Toyota is overlooking that completely for the waste of time light vehicle market where it doesn't make sense, while trying to lobby governments to keep the status quo going.

The only reason they dominate the market in Australia is they offer 20+ models in our market, they cover lots of ground, where as Ford Australia decided to discontinue everything except Thailand Specials and SUVs that they have no stock of so they can't sell.

Toyota are absolute doodle touchers and are the Betamax and HD-DVD of the automotive world with how they're behaving.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

See, this is why I say that EV's are 'horses for courses' - they just don't suit for my usage. Hiring is out of the question as I use my ute a lot more than 4 times a year, for all sorts of tasks that they're just so suited to.



I get what you're saying re the 15 minute 'top up', but is that sort of time frame applicable when you've exhausted the battery on, say a 300 or 400 km leg of a journey and need to recharge to continue on?



How far do you tow your race car? I can understand it would be okay over comparatively short distances, but how is the battery range when towing on a long trip? I'm genuinely interested as reports from the USA on testing of the Ford F150 EV when towing a load were pretty dismal from what I recall reading.

I understand and agree that if you have a use case that EVs don't address, ICE still have an advantage. I drive from Sydney to Brisbane or Sydney to Melbourne regularly and when you consider stop for a quick break every 3-4 hours, the car is usually charged up and ready to go well before I am.

The towing angle I still fail to understand given when I used to tow with my Everest, Falcon or recently a RX450h Lexus, they use 75% to 100% more fuel than not towing. Funnily, I did a tow test recently with the Lexus vs my EV and I only had an increase of 50% on the EV vs 75% on the Lexus. I guess you top up quicker (EV will take an extra few minutes) but for loads up to 1600kgs, EVs are an absolute pleasure to tow with. So effortless. Sometimes I have to remind myself that I'm towing.

I tow the race car just shy of 400 kms round trip. 15 minute charge just near the track. When I go to SMSP, there are chargers at the track so the car is ready to go whilst I'm on track (but I don't have to charge per say). The good thing when towing is every downhill is energy recovered from regen braking so your losses going up a hill can be reduced and range increased.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kypez

Just hire a car for the 4 times a year you do that drive. Rest of the time, the EV will work just fine for daily use.

Takes 15 minutes to top up the newer battery types but range will obviously be not as much as a diesel.

I use our EV to tow my Mini race car (1500kgs with trailer). Does it fantastically well.

But if every manufacturer moves to EV there will be no ICE hire cars available to suit his requirements I'd have thought.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

But if every manufacturer moves to EV there will be no ICE hire cars available to suit his requirements I'd have thought.

His car is 17 years old. I'm going to suggest having a new car to tow with isn't the priority.

[lra]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

With an EV you plug it into the wall
.

Or, if you are driving a Mitsubishi whatever-it-is in the outback, and find Russell Coight, you can plug it into a wooden post .

[whynot]

We live in a capitalistic society, where the means of production is private. Which means that individual investors either make, or assign to their agents (aka Management), decisions on how to invest their money. The vehicle industry is NOT about making cars. It is not about saving the planet. It is not about who wins the Bathurst 1000. The vehicle industry is about making money for its investors. Things like cars, saving (or not) saving the planet, or winning the Bathurst 1000 is simply a byproduct of this investment process.

The beauty about capitalistic manufacturing is that the private investor places individual bets as to what we mugs are prepared to pay the most for. Hence, the proliferation of choice. It also explains why when a certain vehicle is successful, imitation (which results in competitive pricing) is the name of the game.

So, I, for one, am very happy to see Toyota continue down its path. Toyota is full of top shelf engineers and marketers, who have formed the view that their white-goods-automotive approach is the best way to make money. Toyota specialise in ripping production costs out of a car and flogging them off at a high price. The Toyota of 2023 is making noises that ICE is the way to go for now, and then bridge across to hydrogen down the track.

I am also very happy to see Telsa continue down its path as well. Telsa is also full of top shelf engineers and marketers, who have formed the view that EV is the way to go. Telsa have gone the tech route, and they too are now flogging off their vehicles at a price way above manufacturing costs.

My advice is not to take sides and become a fanboy for either ICE, hydrogen, or EV technology. But to buy some popcorn, take a ringside seat, and what manufactures fight a bloody battle for supremacy. That way, when the time comes to put your hard earned cash down for the next car, there is a choice in drivetrain technology.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by kypez

EVs are an absolute pleasure to tow with.

The game changer will be self-propelled caravans with their own battery pack and electric motors. A caravan with, say, a 150 kW h battery would be an amazing bit of kit. It would be funny to watch the caravan pull a bogged prime move out of the mud.

https://www.ozxcorp.com/press/ozx-se...amper-trailer/

Nope, nothing to fear from an EV world when it comes to going camping.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

When the grid goes down and the Tesla drivers cant get to the lab, old mate in his Camry hybrid will still get to bowls.

A lot of people don't realise that went the grid goes down for an extended period, so does the liquid fuel supplies. Look no further than Tropical Cyclone Marcia when it hit Rockhampton back in 2015.

No power = no fuel pumps = fuel shortages.

Ditto at the local fuel distribution centre. No power = no pumps = no fuel.

And when they got a generator onto the servo to restore power to the pumps, the fuel distributors refused to pump fuel as all of their pump and billing system was linked real-time back to the head office in Sydney because the NBN was also down. So the other problem path is no power = no comms = no fuel dispatch = fuel shortages.

If anything, this particular hidden problem with liquid fuel distribution has only gotten worse.

Finally, the other thing to keep in mind is that the fuel reserve stockpile in Australia is presently only 20 days for diesel. It screams geopolitical risk to me.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by whynot

We live in a capitalistic society, where the means of production is private. Which means that individual investors either make, or assign to their agents (aka Management), decisions on how to invest their money. The vehicle industry is NOT about making cars. It is not about saving the planet. It is not about who wins the Bathurst 1000. The vehicle industry is about making money for its investors. Things like cars, saving (or not) saving the planet, or winning the Bathurst 1000 is simply a byproduct of this investment process.

The beauty about capitalistic manufacturing is that the private investor places individual bets as to what we mugs are prepared to pay the most for. Hence, the proliferation of choice. It also explains why when a certain vehicle is successful, imitation (which results in competitive pricing) is the name of the game.

So, I, for one, am very happy to see Toyota continue down its path. Toyota is full of top shelf engineers and marketers, who have formed the view that their white-goods-automotive approach is the best way to make money. Toyota specialise in ripping production costs out of a car and flogging them off at a high price. The Toyota of 2023 is making noises that ICE is the way to go for now, and then bridge across to hydrogen down the track.

I am also very happy to see Telsa continue down its path as well. Telsa is also full of top shelf engineers and marketers, who have formed the view that EV is the way to go. Telsa have gone the tech route, and they too are now flogging off their vehicles at a price way above manufacturing costs.

My advice is not to take sides and become a fanboy for either ICE, hydrogen, or EV technology. But to buy some popcorn, take a ringside seat, and what manufactures fight a bloody battle for supremacy. That way, when the time comes to put your hard earned cash down for the next car, there is a choice in drivetrain technology.

Damn straight, what a fine post that is. Popcorn at the ready. Your Toyota testimonial about ripping and flogging almost made me want to go out and spend $66,990 on a new Corolla Cross.

https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...22356214/?Cr=0

Almost.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Damn straight, what a fine post that is. Popcorn at the ready. Your Toyota testimonial about ripping and flogging almost made me want to go out and spend $66,990 on a new Corolla Cross.



https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...22356214/?Cr=0



Almost.

What the actual ****!!! Is that dealer markup or RRP?!

By whitegoods i always thought Fisher and Paykel... Not Miele

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by whynot

A lot of people don't realise that went the grid goes down for an extended period, so does the liquid fuel supplies. Look no further than Tropical Cyclone Marcia when it hit Rockhampton back in 2015.

No power = no fuel pumps = fuel shortages.

Ditto at the local fuel distribution centre. No power = no pumps = no fuel.

And when they got a generator onto the servo to restore power to the pumps, the fuel distributors refused to pump fuel as all of their pump and billing system was linked real-time back to the head office in Sydney because the NBN was also down. So the other problem path is no power = no comms = no fuel dispatch = fuel shortages.

If anything, this particular hidden problem with liquid fuel distribution has only gotten worse.

Finally, the other thing to keep in mind is that the fuel reserve stockpile in Australia is presently only 20 days for diesel. It screams geopolitical risk to me.

Agree, might be handy to be able to do a bit of moonshinin' if you are of the ICE persuasion. Or disconnect your house from the grid so you can keep generating power/charge if parts of the grid go down or get browned out. Currently, if the grid goes down, I lose power despite having the solar, it would be nice to have a 'separation' switch - do any of you know how to do this without batteries?

And I love the idea of a self propelled car-van thingy which you can slide your own BBQ out the side of.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by kypez

What the actual ****!!! Is that dealer markup or RRP?!

By whitegoods i always thought Fisher and Paykel... Not Miele

There's this line in 'LA Story' where Patrick Stewart, playing a mean German restauranteur, directs Chevy Chase to a really poor table and Chevy asks

"Is this the New Cruelty?", to which Patrick nods...

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by smoo

When it happens.
Can you give us a date when entry level EVs are running this next Gen battery tech?

Very soon.
In fact, BYD has/is releasing a small EV soon. This is rumored to have the Na+ battery tech.

Tesla is rumored to be using the lastest CATL battery in the Model 3 - soon to be released. This packing more Whr/kg but also faster charge times (10-15mins to 80%). Also this tech has no loss in working conditions due to temperature.

[kevino]

Chinese electrics
Above


When do we get detail on electric Puma?

[Ben73]

Not sure why the electric lobby and anyone else is concerned with Toyota’s profits. The electric lobby are sure the future is electric, if that’s the case than Toyota will start to take a big sales hit. Sounds like Toyotas problem and not anyone else’s

Originally Posted by kypez

His car is 17 years old. I'm going to suggest having a new car to tow with isn't the priority.

To be fair you said he should just hire a car 4 times a year. There’s no 17 year old rental cars as far as I’m aware.
If electric lobby pushes everyone to go electric, all rentals will be electric too.

[Trendseeker]

Originally Posted by kypez

What the actual ****!!! Is that dealer markup or RRP?!

By whitegoods i always thought Fisher and Paykel... Not Miele

Yes, marked up by about $15K for immediate delivery. Otherwise, take a ticket and wait in the queue for 12 months.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Ben73

To be fair you said he should just hire a car 4 times a year. There’s no 17 year old rental cars as far as I’m aware.

If electric lobby pushes everyone to go electric, all rentals will be electric too.

There will still be niche providers in the future. Heck, if you can, the 17 year old car will have all is equity gone and could be kept for just those occasions.

I hire a 4x4 everytime I want to go off-road. Simple process. This isn't happening overnight. At least 20 years of hiring ICE ahead of us

[burnz]

every one says invest in solar,
yet most rent..
have a 7Kw power outlet, most rent..
so the 2Kw outlet is useless for charging as it would take 25+ hours!!

[kypez]

Originally Posted by burnz

every one says invest in solar,
yet most rent..
have a 7Kw power outlet, most rent..
so the 2Kw outlet is useless for charging as it would take 25+ hours!!

31% of Australia rents vs owning their own home.

Unlike a people car where you typically fill up only when empty, you can just plug your car in everyday/every night when you get home. Overnight will add 100-150kms (15kms/hr charge rate) of range easily on a 2kw/10amp socket. Most of Australia drives less than that per day.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by burnz

every one says invest in solar,
yet most rent..
have a 7Kw power outlet, most rent..
so the 2Kw outlet is useless for charging as it would take 25+ hours!!

Wouldn't cost too much to get 32A outlet installed - would give you 7.2kWh charging capability at home.

It's the same as adding another circuit for an induction cooktop.

On a normal house, not a big problem, however parking garage in an apartment complex it's a heap more expensive and involved, which is a problem because they're perfect customers for EVs.

Originally Posted by kypez

31% of Australia rents vs owning their own home.

Unlike a people car where you typically fill up only when empty, you can just plug your car in everyday/every night when you get home. Overnight will add 100-150kms (15kms/hr charge rate) of range easily on a 2kw/10amp socket. Most of Australia drives less than that per day.

Just like my phone(s)

They're plugged in every night, I'm with you that it's not a huge deal.

[jpd80]

For quite a while, I laughed at the idea of people buying electric scooters and bikes as a way of commute transport. Then I started to notice some work colleagues using a mix of public transport (buses and trains) combined with fold up scooter for the final km or to to work. Others using bike pathways to cover incredible distances without the peak hour traffic drudge.

So yeah, there’s lots of ways that people can avoid buying an expensive EV just to get to work.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Wouldn't cost too much to get 32A outlet installed - would give you 7.2kWh charging capability at home.

It's the same as adding another circuit for an induction cooktop.

On a normal house, not a big problem, however parking garage in an apartment complex it's a heap more expensive and involved, which is a problem because they're perfect customers for EVs.



Just like my phone(s)

They're plugged in every night, I'm with you that it's not a huge deal.

Lol, you've got to be joking, im still waiting to hear back from the sparkies I left messages with in 2018 to have a 15a power point installed for my Sons caravan.

Tradies aren't interested in doing small jobs these days, wont even over quote, just scroll past your message.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Agree, might be handy to be able to do a bit of moonshinin' if you are of the ICE persuasion. Or disconnect your house from the grid so you can keep generating power/charge if parts of the grid go down or get browned out. Currently, if the grid goes down, I lose power despite having the solar, it would be nice to have a 'separation' switch - do any of you know how to do this without batteries?

And I love the idea of a self propelled car-van thingy which you can slide your own BBQ out the side of.

You need to have a suitably capable inverter. This is a few years old now, but gives the gist.

https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/...verter-mb1494/

[kypez]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lol, you've got to be joking, im still waiting to hear back from the sparkies I left messages with in 2018 to have a 15a power point installed for my Sons caravan.



Tradies aren't interested in doing small jobs these days, wont even over quote, just scroll past your message.

Tell them it's for an EV and they'll come running to do the work

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Wouldn't cost too much to get 32A outlet installed - would give you 7.2kWh charging capability at home.

It's the same as adding another circuit for an induction cooktop.

On a normal house, not a big problem, however parking garage in an apartment complex it's a heap more expensive and involved, which is a problem because they're perfect customers for EVs.



Just like my phone(s)

They're plugged in every night, I'm with you that it's not a huge deal.

if you rent it would be upto the landlord.

yeah it only cost around grand but those that live in appartments, and/or rent need approval.