BWS "McDonaldising" our Pubs

[GreenMachine]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Although i would note that there is no real scope for a proletariat/bourgeousie divide to exist in a country where any man or woman can purchase equity in a company and therefore have a hand in whatever the said company produces. By definition, a prole must be prevented from ownership of production means.

Why did you pick a Friday to start a debate as to the worker's control of the means of production? I just don't have the energy!!

To briefly stray on-topic, it is sad that BWS/Woolworths is McDonalds-ising suburban pubs (Happened to my local about a year ago), but it really just seems the way of the future. Small businesses just can't hold out against the pressure. The increasing pressure of pokies has a big hand in it too (as well as killing live music, a seperate topic).

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by max

Yeah well I'm no fool. PS I picked up a $100 cache of reds at DM's last night! Wine rack is looking a bit healthier! 9 bottles for $96, and not crap either! I'll use the advantage where I can, but make no mistake I know what the conniving bastards are really up to! Actually I used to have an endless argument with a mate of mine(he was 50% marxist) that I am immune to the insidious effects of advertising. His view was that at some stage EVERYONE gets sucked in. I used to say yes I absorb it all, but I filter it and Australian Made but the styles/range/prices of imports from China is much more appealing to me, and they do get a dollar or two a month from me. Buact on the subliminal messages only to my advantage. I still hold to that. I know I should not buy products made by multi-nationals who ruthlessly exploit the poor in sweat-shops in 3rd world countries, but I just love that tick design down the side of my runners. And I know that I should buy t I do drive two Australian built Fords, and when it comes to parts and service(barring my legendary mechanic mate) I know I'm being screwed mercilessly. Cripes I'm crapping on, I remind myself of my grandmother! The thing is, its unfortunate when people have to get on their high horse about things and thump their chests saying well I know more than you blah blah... and generally getting patronizing and condescending when there is the tapestry and diversity of thought to be savoured.
:

Agreed.

Looks like it'll be a nice day for a drink tomorrow

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by GreenMachine

Why did you pick a Friday to start a debate as to the worker's control of the means of production? I just don't have the energy!!

Lol. C'mon GM... you cant let up for a second or the place will be overrun by conservatives. ;)

Yes... friday... explains the poor structure of my responses... well, i'll run with that excuse anyway

[max]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Agreed.

Looks like it'll be a nice day for a drink tomorrow

Well you didn't have to agree with all of it!!!! Strike me pink, I chucked a few baits in there!!!

But what happened to my quote in your reply?? Look at it, its done some sentence repositioning... what th'..........

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

It is indeed a great point - and considering the member's username it comes as no suprise that he wishes to detract from the (imaginary) bourgeoisie. I would think it must be a frustrating society for the marxists amoungst us to live within.

Oh very, very frustrating, let me assure you. Especially as my best friends include a financial controller for the Commonwealth Bank who is an active member of liberal party and one who is studying third year ecomonics.

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Although i would note that there is no real scope for a proletariat/bourgeousie divide to exist in a country where any man or woman can purchase equity in a company and therefore have a hand in whatever the said company produces. By definition, a prole must be prevented from ownership of production means.

My username is well known on another Ford Forum, where I was christened by super-conservative member for my socialistic views, I however, do not belong to the class my name purports, well, not really...lol. A good thing it that it's alomost a guaranteed user name on any forum.

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

However, it would appear that our lumpenproletariat is speaking of corporate issues of a different nature.

The environmental issues surrounding BHP, the moral issues which surround james hardy and the obscure attack upon Telstra's profitability (your claims regarding their profiteering appear to be at odds with legislated service requirements imposed upon Telstra and their poor financial performance in recent times) are all issues which impact external third parties.

Environment, sufferers of asbestos related diseases and this alleged profiteering are all things which adversely impact upon third parties. In the case of the environement, its something which affects us all. Of course it's not "out of school" to pass judgement on such matters - regardless of your equity holding in a company or otherwise.

But I fail to see the impact upon you when an managing director of woolworths receives compensation of $x. Would your life be any different if corbett was paid only $1 per annum? $10,000 pa? $100,000pa?

I would argue that all aspects of a companies profile can and should be commented upon regardless of whether they're moral, social, economic or otherwise and furthermore I reserve the right to do so. I find a 20 Million dollar package for one man just as heinous a moral and social crime as many actions of corporations on a whole.

To explain my comment on Telstra, I find it amusing how a PROFIT of $3.18 Billion can be considered poor financial performance. Profit! Now, that has to come from somewhere? That's 3,181,000,000 dollars or about 63,000 average wages! How is that poor? So, they downgraded the profit expectations a billion, they didn't LOOSE one billion, they just made one billion less profit than expected. However, our line rentals here may increase 300% because it's costing them too much? That's an absolutely disgusting and abhorrent stance and nothing more than profiteering.

Then again, maybe I should refrain? I'm one of those old fashioned Chifleyites who believes in 100% nationalised infrastructure, a nationalised bank in competition with the others and a reserve bank geared to keep zero unemployment and the average wage enough to support a family.

<Edit>Hell, I'm even that left wing I believe in the event of a companies collapse, the workers entitlements should be paid first, before bank debts!</edit>


Outdated and commo aren't I?



Cheers,
Brendan :

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Lumpen Proletariat

I would argue that all aspects of a companies profile can and should be commented upon regardless of whether they're moral, social, economic or otherwise and furthermore I reserve the right to do so. I find a 20 Million dollar package for one man just as heinous a moral and social crime as many actions of corporations on a whole.

I guess this is where the socialist bee puts a bit of a sting in my bonnet.

You have millions of shares on issue to thousands of shareholders. The majority of these shareholders have approved the remuneration payment which is in question here.

But the marxxists are of the opinion that they know better than the collective will of these shareholders. Heck, you probably do - but the fact remains its *their* company and *they* can pay the executive team as much or as little as they like.

The true beauty of the free market economy. You remove the individual from the equation.

This is not an attack on you lumpen, im not feeling terribly articulate today so apologies if this observation doesnt come across as im intending. But do you see where im coming from here?

I certainly encourage your criticism on the corporation. I hope you dont expect such criticisms to go unchallenged though (I suspect you dont have any objection to that)

[It'sTheVibe]

You have millions of shares on issue to thousands of shareholders. The majority of these shareholders have approved the remuneration payment which is in question here.

In the vast majority of cases, it is not the majority of shareholders who have approved the payment, but the shareholders representing the majority of shares. And it's a very incestuous relationship, as the income of those representing the larger fund and share holdings like to keep it on par with those they are seeking to reward.

It'sTheVibe (B.Comm)

[MO]

Might I suggest a few ppl here should read..."Das Kapital" and when you have then I shall listen.

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by MO

Might I suggest a few ppl here should read..."Das Kapital" and when you have then I shall listen.

I did try to read some of Marx's views on economics. I really, honestly tried, but god is it dry! I just couldn't finish it. Then again, I was 12, I may appreciate it alot more now.


Cheers,
Lumpy py:

[MO]

Originally Posted by Lumpen Proletariat

I did try to read some of Marx's views on economics. I really, honestly tried, but god is it dry! I just couldn't finish it. Then again, I was 12, I may appreciate it alot more now.


Cheers,
Lumpy py:

Give it another try...yes it is a hard read.

But just some food for thought....one of the tenets from the tome is..."to each according to his needs and from each according to his ability.."

Think about it whether your left or right..it has creedence.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by MO

Give it another try...yes it is a hard read.

But just some food for thought....one of the tenets from the tome is..."to each according to his needs and from each according to his ability.."

Think about it whether your left or right..it has creedence.

But equally as flawed (and in may people's opinions including mine) as neoclassical economic theory...

A lot of people seem to be able to remove his politcal work from his economic theories. I cant seperate one from the other, his economic works still contain endless rants about one class of people exploiting another.

Interesting reading, nonetheless... if not a little dry... but then, his work is a lot more colourful than texts written about the more widely accepted economic principles

I dont remember much being written about the need for revolution in 1st year macro textbooks lol

[MO]

One must remember that when Marx wrote it he was influenced by Lenin and Engles.

Also not forgetting the fact that at the time of writing the social/work conditions were vastly different to today, much more exploitive.

[max]

Originally Posted by MO

One must remember that when Marx wrote it he was influenced by Lenin and Engles.

Also not forgetting the fact that at the time of writing the social/work conditions were vastly different to today, much more exploitive.

Plus Russia was a bastard of a place in those days.

[Charliewool]

Wonder if Marx, Lenin or even Tolstoy has eaten at, and noticed the sameness at all the BWS's?... Gone a little deep here haven't we guys?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Wonder if Marx, Lenin or even Tolstoy has eaten at, and noticed the sameness at all the BWS's?... Gone a little deep here haven't we guys?

Yes but in lenin's interpretation of marx's notes, the salad bar was denounced as a tool used by the bourgeoisie to control the means of production

[Lumpen Proletariat]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Interesting reading, nonetheless... if not a little dry... but then, his work is a lot more colourful than texts written about the more widely accepted economic principles

You have got to be kidding! I'm sure it's impossible to be any dryer than that! The mereest thought makes me sleepy! :


Lumpy :

[max]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Wonder if Marx, Lenin or even Tolstoy has eaten at, and noticed the sameness at all the BWS's?... Gone a little deep here haven't we guys?

Yeah I reckon. They're not even listening to us anymore!! Goes to show never get between a capitalist and a socialist!

PS I'm selling my Franz Kafka (Steppenwolf is a bit dog-eared) and Arthur Koestler collection. I need to fund my Lee Stringer and Kurt Vonnegut Jr. collections. Not that that's got anything to do with BWS but nor has Lenin.

[MO]

Dare I point out that 'Das Kapital' was written in London..where Marx was a guest of Engals(sp)

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by MO

Dare I point out that 'Das Kapital' was written in London..where Marx was a guest of Engals(sp)

Plenty of good (independent or brewery) pubs in London too.

This thread supports my hypothesis that, at the opposite end of the spectrum to Camry owners, Fords are the favoured cars of the intellectual classes.

Actually it's Engels (sp). And Marx had an illegitimate child by his maid in London (after drinking at an independent pub?).

[4.9 EF Futura]

Lol, ive never understood why a topic must remain within two parrallel lines which have been defined as its scope

Conversation evolves, one thing leads to another.... or do we need to halt immediately once a topic has been "hashed out".

[MO]

Let it evolve....

[max]

Originally Posted by MO

Let it evolve....

This is it!! A free reign. This is the best way to tease out the mettle in us. Had Lenin emigrated to Australia for some reason, and had enjoyed an exraordinarily long life bouyed by the layback lifestyle and plenty of sunshine and bountiful lamb and beef, he would probably be occasionally seen shambling along the aisles of a Dan Murphy's outlet checking out any specials on Vodka.

[MO]

Originally Posted by max

This is it!! A free reign. This is the best way to tease out the mettle in us. Had Lenin emigrated to Australia for some reason, and had enjoyed an exraordinarily long life bouyed by the layback lifestyle and plenty of sunshine and bountiful lamb and beef, he would probably be occasionally seen shambling along the aisles of a Dan Murphy's outlet checking out any specials on Vodka.

The same could be said for D.H.Lawrence...(Lady Chatterlys Lover)..but he came for a short stay wrote the basis of 'Kangaroo' and left...no doubt due to the influence of his German wife.

[new2ford]

But in that short stay DH Lawrence left some of the best description of the Australian landscape and Australian life ever written.

Back to thread (sort of), it would be good subject for a thesis whether and for how long the ready availability of credit would have lulled Lenin into a false sense of enjoyment of the Australian lifestyle and would have delayed the advent of communism until his mortgage was foreclosed.

[max]

Originally Posted by new2ford

But in that short stay DH Lawrence left some of the best description of the Australian landscape and Australian life ever written.

Back to thread (sort of), it would be good subject for a thesis whether and for how long the ready availability of credit would have lulled Lenin into a false sense of enjoyment of the Australian lifestyle and would have delayed the advent of communism until his mortgage was foreclosed.

Thats a good angle! Come on fellas don't let this thread die on the vine!
I myself am suffering from temporary creative constipation.

[new2ford]

If this thread isn't going any further how about: "Toyota 'McDonaldising' our cars"

[max]

Originally Posted by new2ford

If this thread isn't going any further how about: "Toyota 'McDonaldising' our cars"

Oooooooooo!!!! That's a bit controversial! But isn't that DayWoo? I mean, what's a Holden Barina in actual fact? And a Holden Viva? What oriental car manufacturer is coming up most often in other car badges?