Mullaly confirms Falcon and Mustang to share platform from 2016

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Boss315

I like this idea too, but does Ford sell a RHD Taurus anywhere in the world?

LOL, they didn't when we got the 1996 either..
Most of Ford's volume FWD cars are now built LHD with RHD preserved.

[Elks]

Originally Posted by jpd80

In my opinion, the large car market is not the problem, it's the failure of Fiesta/Focus/Mondeo
to capture significant sales in their respective areas, there would be less pressure on Falcon
if these vehicles would pull their weight. Head office must be tearing their hair out looking at poor results.
[/IMG]

The fact that falcon and its derivatives are such good cars alters the market. The others are fine cars but a ready supply of a large RWD car at a reasonable price both new and used makes the others less desirable.

Ford and Holden however are in a situation where they cannot unring a bell. The Oz market has grown up on and is fond of this style of car and attempts by Mitsubishi with the magna/380 (a fine car) and Toyota Aurion/Avalon (rubbish but that doesn't stop other tojo's from selling). Have failed.

People on this forum often criticise FOA about marketing, but consider the $$$ spent by Toyota on the Aurion, for a relatively poor result.

This is proof that you cannot sell against the market. There will always be blips on graph, fuel spikes etc, but the long term preference is large sedan. Thinks XD Falcon vs. VC Commodore. So if you can combine all the elements of efficiency/style/packaging/advertising you win he game.

The debate continues

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Elks

The fact that falcon and its derivatives are such good cars alters the market. The others are fine cars but a ready supply of a large RWD car at a reasonable price both new and used makes the others less desirable.

Ford and Holden however are in a situation where they cannot unring a bell. The Oz market has grown up on and is fond of this style of car and attempts by Mitsubishi with the magna/380 (a fine car) and Toyota Aurion/Avalon (rubbish but that doesn't stop other tojo's from selling). Have failed.

People on this forum often criticise FOA about marketing, but consider the $$$ spent by Toyota on the Aurion, for a relatively poor result.

This is proof that you cannot sell against the market. There will always be blips on graph, fuel spikes etc, but the long term preference is large sedan. Thinks XD Falcon vs. VC Commodore. So if you can combine all the elements of efficiency/style/packaging/advertising you win he game.

The debate continues

Which flies in the face of fact.
All market growth is happening in light and small cars,other manufacturers have picked up
significant gains in these areas while Ford's sales have waned significantly over the years.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Which flies in the face of fact.
All market growth is happening in light and small cars,other manufacturers have picked up significant gains in these areas while Ford's sales have waned significantly over the years.

That's a bit harsh:

Fiesta - Selling strongly.
Focus - At the end of model cycle, with the new model looking the goods.
Mondeo - Outside of the Australian built fleet princess Camry 4 cylinder, no single model sells large numbers in this segment.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Boss315

That's a bit harsh:

Fiesta - Selling strongly.
Focus - At the end of model cycle, with the new model looking the goods.
Mondeo - Outside of the Australian built fleet princess Camry 4 cylinder, no
single model sells large numbers in this segment.

Nah, I'm just disappointed that the three aren't doing much better, they're great products.
The evidence is that the majority of sales growth is occurring in Fiesta
(Light) and Focus (Small) car segments while Falcon's Large car segment
is waning while Mid Size seems pretty stable....

Looking at 2009 results:
Mondeo: outsold by Camry, Mazda 6, Accord Euro, Subaru Liberty

Focus: outsold by Corolla, Mazda 3, Hyundai i30, Lancer, Cruze, Impreza and Golf.

Fiesta: outsold by Getz, Yaris, Mazda 2, Swift, Barina and Jazz

I'll admit that Fiesta is now beginning to sell strongly and is hampered by restricted supply
until Thailand comes on stream. I think you'll find Fiesta steals sales off Focus big time,
this occurred in Europe last year as buyers migrated to the newer more economical Fiesta.
As for Mondeo, maybe the fairest assessment is a great car invisible to buyers of Asian vehicles.

[Elks]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Which flies in the face of fact.
All market growth is happening in light and small cars,other manufacturers have picked up
significant gains in these areas while Ford's sales have waned significantly over the years.

Some facts...

Without doubt the share that the Laser had had been eroded by other brands, this is as much a function of govt tariff policies as allegedly dumb people at Ford or smart people at Hyundai.

But people waffle on about the death of the large car, and look at the growth in sales of small cars, but I think you would find that the large sedan market as a % of the overall market has been as impacted as much or more by people movers, SUV's and proper 4x4 as much as the small market.

Remember the market has doubled since the time of the XD, but so have the number of market segments. some of the best upper medium cars in recent years Mondeo and Vectra were poor sellers because if you walked into a Holden showroom with 40K to spend MOST people walked out with a commodore (or derivative).

Seriously, if Honda or Mazda (et al) offered a large RWD sedan with 200+KW V6 or a 250+kw V8 for 40 to 55 grand do you think it wouldn't sell in this market? Hell I'd consider buying one.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Elks

Some facts...

Without doubt the share that the Laser had had been eroded by other brands, this is as much a function of govt tariff policies as allegedly dumb people at Ford or smart people at Hyundai.

But people waffle on about the death of the large car, and look at the growth in sales of small cars, but I think you would find that the large sedan market as a % of the overall market has been as impacted as much or more by people movers, SUV's and proper 4x4 as much as the small market.

I agree with the thrust of your post in that vehicles with either more utility or better fuel economy have robbed from large cars like Falcon and Commodore but what your post does is further underscore Ford's failings in SUV/CUV and the lack of a proper 4WD SUV competitor to Prado.

I feel that generally, Ford under performs in all of those segments but the notable exception would be Territory, a master stroke by Geoff Polites reading the market and making changes.

Remember the market has doubled since the time of the XD, but so have the number of market segments. some of the best upper medium cars in recent years Mondeo and Vectra were poor sellers because if you walked into a Holden showroom with 40K to spend MOST people walked out with a commodore (or derivative).

In reality, you only have to go back less than 10 years to see the trends you're talking about But I can tell you a lot more people walked into Toyota, Honda and Subaru dealerships and walked out with the bulk of Mid Sized car sales.

[XR Martin]

If the Econetic Fiesta does well, then they need to expand that to the Mondeo. The Econetic version in the UK averages 5.3L/100km, and Ford could lay another boot in Toyota and compare it to the Hybrid Camry (average economy 6.0L/100km)

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Boss315

That's a bit harsh:

Fiesta - Selling strongly.
Focus - At the end of model cycle, with the new model looking the goods.
Mondeo - Outside of the Australian built fleet princess Camry 4 cylinder, no single model sells large numbers in this segment.

I believe that the Fiesta, which is a new model, is startignto come into its own.

Focus will also start to come into its own once the new model is released but in the meantime it could do with some more agressive marketing and matbe a few incentives.

Mondeo is a good car but as long as it is competing at near Falcon prices it is doomed to failure. If Falcon is to be replaced by a FWD car, that car would also replace Mondeo, though it would probably share the same platform (CD4?)

[DRU842]

One of the major issues with pursuing the non-Falcon class of car for Ford is to get the dealer network on board. It is difficult to get attention on these classes at Ford dealers in my experience, contrasted to the focus (pardon the pun) at other dealers.

[jpd80]

Worse than all of that is the continuing strangled delivery of overseas products.
We're constantly reminded that a lot of models and trim levels are like getting
"unobtanium" out of European factories due to high demand there and our unique
ADR compliance changes. In that respect, Thailand production can't come soon enough.

Sorry for sounding a bit of a whinger before but I feel changing the Falcon should be a
low priority when so much other work needs to be done on seeding the market for Fiesta,
Focus, Mondeo, Escape/Kuga and Ranger. If Ford could get those products right there would
be less emphasis to change the Falcon, especially the RWD bit.

I agree that Mondeo is too close to Falcon and my solution would be a genuine midsized RWD off
the Falcon that falls between Focus and Mondeo in size, how you do that is tricky but then we Aussies
do have a soft spot for a Torana/ Cortina sized RWD so the pay off could be another gift to Ford USA.

[Luke Plaizier]

Just a bit of musing here regarding the Falcon, it's longevity, GRWD and strategy.

If you all recall, Marin Burela was pretty important to Ford Europe and was essentially Derrick Kuzaks second in command in the early days of the naughties.

And now he's down here in Australia running Ford Oz. Demotion? Retirement? Burela's role in the Fiesta seems to have started pretty early on in the piece - market research, business case development, seek corporate approval, and then oversee the delivery.

And here we are, 12 months or so away from Ford Oz making a decision on the future of the Falcon, on the cusp of GRWD (or not), and Ford have chosen someone who has already developed a global platform to run the show. Someone who just so happened to be a local and may or may not have an emotional interest in making a decision that is just as good for his home town/country as it is for the corporate good.

It makes for interesting conjecture to join the dots like this doesn't it.


Lukeyson

[Ghiadude]

Indeed it makes a lot of sense. The only problem is when the global product doesn't suit what Australians like ie I6 or like Zeta it's too big/small

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Just a bit of musing here regarding the Falcon, it's longevity, GRWD and strategy.

If you all recall, Marin Burela was pretty important to Ford Europe and was essentially Derrick Kuzaks second in command in the early days of the naughties.

And now he's down here in Australia running Ford Oz. Demotion? Retirement? Burela's role in the Fiesta seems to have started pretty early on in the piece - market research, business case development, seek corporate approval, and then oversee the delivery.

And here we are, 12 months or so away from Ford Oz making a decision on the future of the Falcon, on the cusp of GRWD (or not), and Ford have chosen someone who has already developed a global platform to run the show. Someone who just so happened to be a local and may or may not have an emotional interest in making a decision that is just as good for his home town/country as it is for the corporate good.

It makes for interesting conjecture to join the dots like this doesn't it.


Lukeyson

One of your articles is wrong, Burela joined Ford of Europe in 2004 to lead
the development of Ford's Global Small Car product portfolio, not 2002 like
your article said.

Burela was chosen for Australia because he is a local and because the past two
import CEOs have been less than effective, Osbourne barely warming the chair..

I wouldn't read anymore into his appointment than that, the Fiesta project had finished
and this was the next logical opening for him, Dearborn wants FoA lean and efficient...

[outback_ute]

This might be interesting, here is some comparative dimensional info from the Ford websites:

[code]Exterior (mm) Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Overall length 4970 5154 4844 4841
Overall width 1868 1935 1886 1834
Overall height 1433 1542 1500 1445
Wheelbase 2838 2868 2850 2728
Front track 1583 1659 1579 1567
Rear track 1598 1664 1595 1557

Exterior (") Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Overall length 195.7 202.9 188.1 190.6
Overall width 73.5 76.2 74.3 72.2
Overall height 56.4 60.7 59.1 56.3
Wheelbase 111.7 112.3 112.2 107.4
Front track 62.3 65.3 62.2 61.7
Rear track 62.9 65.5 62.8 61.3

Interior (mm) Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Front headroom 1012 991 996 983
Front legroom 1073 1064 1126 1074
Front shldr rm 1523 1471 1448 1458
Front hip room 1486 1430 1372
Rear headroom 989 960 976 960
Rear legroom 989 968 950 942
Rear shldr room 1518 1445 1421 1435
Rear hip room 1417 1354

Boot/trunk (L) 535 570 567 581
Fuel tank (L) 68 72 70 66

Interior (") Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Front headroom 39.8 39 39.2 38.7
Front legroom 42.2 41.3 44.3 42.3
Front shldr rm 60.0 57.9 57.0 57.4
Front hip room 58.5 56.3 0.0 54.0
Rear headroom 38.9 37.8 38.0 37.8
Rear legroom 38.9 38.1 37.4 37.1
Rear shldr room 59.8 56.9 55.9 56.5
Rear hip room 55.8 53.3

Trunk (cu.ft) 18.9 20.1 18.9 16.5
Fuel (US gal) 18.0 19.0 18.5 17.5

[/code]

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

This might be interesting, here is some comparative dimensional info from the Ford websites:

[code]Exterior (mm) Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Overall length 4970 5154 4844 4841
Overall width 1868 1935 1886 1834
Overall height 1433 1542 1500 1445
Wheelbase 2838 2868 2850 2728
Front track 1583 1659 1579 1567
Rear track 1598 1664 1595 1557

Exterior (") Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Overall length 195.7 202.9 188.1 190.6
Overall width 73.5 76.2 74.3 72.2
Overall height 56.4 60.7 59.1 56.3
Wheelbase 111.7 112.3 112.2 107.4
Front track 62.3 65.3 62.2 61.7
Rear track 62.9 65.5 62.8 61.3

Interior (mm) Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Front headroom 1012 991 996 983
Front legroom 1073 1064 1126 1074
Front shldr rm 1523 1471 1448 1458
Front hip room 1486 1430 1372
Rear headroom 989 960 976 960
Rear legroom 989 968 950 942
Rear shldr room 1518 1445 1421 1435
Rear hip room 1417 1354

Boot/trunk (L) 535 570 567 581
Fuel tank (L) 68 72 70 66

Interior (") Falcon Taurus Mondeo Fusion
Front headroom 39.8 39 39.2 38.7
Front legroom 42.2 41.3 44.3 42.3
Front shldr rm 60.0 57.9 57.0 57.4
Front hip room 58.5 56.3 0.0 54.0
Rear headroom 38.9 37.8 38.0 37.8
Rear legroom 38.9 38.1 37.4 37.1
Rear shldr room 59.8 56.9 55.9 56.5
Rear hip room 55.8 53.3

Trunk (cu.ft) 18.9 20.1 18.9 16.5
Fuel (US gal) 18.0 19.0 18.5 17.5

[/code]

That will all probably change once Taurus moves to the CD4 platform along with Mondeo, Fusion, Lincoln MKS, Lincoln MKZ and Mercury Milan from 2012.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

That will all probably change once Taurus moves to the CD4 platform along with Mondeo, Fusion, Lincoln MKS, Lincoln MKZ and Mercury Milan from 2012.

Taurus is not moving to CD4 in 2012, the current 2010 vehicle will get a MCE (Mid Cycle Enhancement)
in 2012 and will then run through to 2015 on D3 platform....

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Taurus is not moving to CD4 in 2012, the current 2010 vehicle will get a MCE (Mid Cycle Enhancement)
in 2012 and will then run through to 2015 on D3 platform....

2015.... gulp!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Boss315

2015.... gulp!

Just remember that Taurus is bigger than Falcon and getting heavier with every model,
an AWD Falcon would be the same weight as today's FWd Taurus - that's gotta be a huge plus.

Mmmmm, AWD G6ET... :eclipsee_

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Mmmmm, AWD G6ET... :eclipsee_

Unfortunately if you want a V8 it's Mustang only?

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Boss315

2015.... gulp!

As long as Falcon doesn't move onto either platform by then.

[Raptor]

Interesting tables posted by outback_ute

Falcon is not the biggest on the outside but is the biggest on the inside, in almost all measures.

I thought FWD and east-west engines were meant to provide packaging benefits :

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Interesting tables posted by outback_ute

Falcon is not the biggest on the outside but is the biggest on the inside, in almost all measures.

I thought FWD and east-west engines were meant to provide packaging benefits :

The point about FWD being better is a myth, those dimensions only point out that the main reason for FWD is for cost cutting.

[Ghiadude]

im going to suggest this one more time. I have before but on another forum... what if the 2015 platform that falcon and mustang are going to be based on will be 100% flexible in size and drivetrain layout?? What if theres a mix of performance rwd, safety awd and economy fwd? what if falcon=territory=fairlane=taurus=mustang=fwd=rwd=a wd?

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

im going to suggest this one more time. I have before but on another forum... what if the 2015 platform that falcon and mustang are going to be based on will be 100% flexible in size and drivetrain layout?? What if theres a mix of performance rwd, safety awd and economy fwd? what if falcon=territory=fairlane=taurus=mustang=fwd=rwd=a wd?

Way too complex to be cost effective.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Way too complex to be cost effective.

What he said.

The whole point of moving to a common platform with global powertrains is to save costs, not increase them exponentially with a weird FWD/AWD/RWD platform that would more than likely have more compromises than benefits.

[Luke Plaizier]

Isn't there a Nissan platform that does just this very thing - can be FWD, RWD or AWD depending on the application?

I'm assuming then that those that have said no have done the R&D, established the business case and have evidence that this wouldn't work....


Lukeyson

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

What he said.

The whole point of moving to a common platform with global powertrains is to save costs, not increase them exponentially with a weird FWD/AWD/RWD platform that would more than likely have more compromises than benefits.

We already have the rwd bit, territory is the awd bit, ecoboost fwd is all that is needed. They've stated that falcon & mustang on the same platform but not much is being said about Taurus and it's due in 2015

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

We already have the rwd bit, territory is the awd bit, ecoboost fwd is all that is needed. They've stated that falcon & mustang on the same platform but not much is being said about Taurus and it's due in 2015

Taurus is moving onto a 'stretched' CD4 platform - I may have had the dates wrong before (my info told me 2012/2013, but its looks like it may be 2015 now).

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ghiadude

im going to suggest this one more time. I have before but on another forum... what if the 2015 platform that Falcon and Mustang are going to be based on will be 100% flexible in size and drivetrain layout?? What if theres a mix of performance rwd, safety awd and economy fwd? what if falcon=territory=fairlane=taurus=mustang=fwd=rwd=a wd?

I know someone who was involved in three separate reviews of developing a FWD/RWD/AWD multi platform.
While it seems like an accountants dream, the reality is that there's so much tear up and redo between a
FWD and RWD car that the whole thing doesn't cost out well. Each time the verdict came down that
separate FWD and RWD platforms was more cost effective.

As I understand it, the majority of engineering and crash test data centres around the front end
and the changes needed to package engines for FWD and RWD is completely different.

A FWD car packages the engine and gearbox for ward of the front wheels, allowing the front seats to
move further forward and foot wells to move inside the inner guards. By comparison, a RWD engine
like the I-6 sits half of the engine behind the front axle necessitating a firewall and foot wells
positioned in line with the back of the inner guards.

Now, if you consider that designers try to get the maximum space utilisation out of a given platform,
it's easy to see how conflicted a FWD and RWD combined platform would be. Sure, you could stick a
transverse I-4 or V6 engine in a Falcon but look at the huge gap behind the wheels, what do you do with that?

And then there's the question of crash properties, a FWD car has completely different crash properties
and force vectoring compared to a RWD vehicle with a North/South engine...