Another Ford vs Holden Comparison!

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by ltd

Good win for Ford.
Still, why on earth does the commodore sell so well?

Yep , and there lies the biggest question ?
The Commodore is firmly fixed in Australian Culture now. It is the "peoples" car and the only way for the Falcon to dethrone it is for FORD to slash the price point on the bread and butter models ( XT , XR6 , G6 ).

It is blatently obvious that the Falc is a better engineered product. but it means b u g g e r all. The real test is in the way FORD market ( read brainwash ) the community at large about the benefits of Falcon ownership.

Its like fast food........everyone knows its bad for you, but everyone is happy to eat it. Most of the public obviously think that the Commodore..."is a little bit fancy "..........

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

As for grunt i don't doubt the 3.0 SIDI and 6sp are better to drive than the older drivetrain (although i keep hearing from fleet guys that the old car was more punchy to drive...) but i stand by my earleir points. Beating yourself is a moot point since once a new model comes out by definition the preceding one ceases production. The only true measure it your competition (and/or your own claims) and the 3.0 fails versus both.

I'm sure the 3.6SIDI will be much more competitive so am looking forward to that comparison.....

Till we debate again prydey

Ironically accurate description of Holden's marketing....

[351capri]

Originally Posted by ESP

Yep , and there lies the biggest question ?
The Commodore is firmly fixed in Australian Culture now. It is the "peoples" car and the only way for the Falcon to dethrone it is for FORD to slash the price point on the bread and butter models ( XT , XR6 , G6 ).

It is blatently obvious that the Falc is a better engineered product. but it means b u g g e r all. The real test is in the way FORD market ( read brainwash ) the community at large about the benefits of Falcon ownership.

Its like fast food........everyone knows its bad for you, but everyone is happy to eat it. Most of the public obviously think that the Commodore..."is a little bit fancy "..........

ford needs to advertise the bejesus out of the fg. we need a "face of ford", a larakin, a guy who sprouts memorable one liners, a ford diehard who is respected by both sides, hang on , wheres dick johnson? his shell ads with the late barry sheen were legendary, and are still quoted today " how about a sock barry?" bring dick onboard for a new series of ads to dispell the "commodore myth" !!!!!!!

[left]

Someone asked why Commodore still outsells Falcon ...I think it's ultimately cost. I could have bought the equivalent Holden when I bought my BA for $2,000 less but was prepared to pay the higher price because after driving both there was just no comparison at all, it was really quite shocking how bad the Commodore was (VY it might have been back then). Stepping in to the BA was like a lightbulb moment for me.

Some people do not care or do not know when they are driving shyte and some people just want the better deal. Also do not underestimate the role women play in new car purchases. How many women do you see driving Commodes? Lots and lots** but not so many driving Falcons. A few female friends drive Commodes which they felt were more 'girly'. I think that's a euphemism for crap. None even considered test driving a Falcon.

** no science to back up just my observation in Melbourne espesh NE-E burbs.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Reading the review, something just struck me. Do you think the FG engine is one of the most underated engines in the world being produced today?

It has fantastic power and torque, reliability, economy, smoothness, and even sounds good when revved. The I6 is just one of those engines which will be talked about with fondness for decades.

I mean a little engineering team from Australia has finnessed an engine which betters the might and money of a a new direct injection global V6 from General Motors.

The I6 in the Falcon just makes it so hard to consider any other car, even before you start considering the Falcons great handling, steering, interior, styling etc...

100% Correct. If the falcon had some sort of wheezy, pathetic V6 there's no way I'd own a Ford.

I came for the I6, i'll stay for the I6 and I'll leave shortly after the I6 does.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by 351capri

ford needs to advertise the bejesus out of the fg. we need a "face of ford", a larakin, a guy who sprouts memorable one liners, a ford diehard who is respected by both sides, hang on , wheres dick johnson? his shell ads with the late barry sheen were legendary, and are still quoted today " how about a sock barry?" bring dick onboard for a new series of ads to dispell the "commodore myth" !!!!!!!

Maybe we should start a thread for possible FORD advertising campaigns and slogans.......just to give those boofheads over at FORD PR a helping hand.....

Who is most likely to stuff up the marketing release for Australia's best ever family sedan..........FORD OF COURSE !!!!!!

[Mr Hardware]

Bring back 'have you driven a Ford lately'?

Because the fact of the matter is, 99% of people who rubbish Ford haven't!

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Bring back 'have you driven a Ford lately'?

Funny that, I was just thinking this the other day.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Bring back 'have you driven a Ford lately'?

Because the fact of the matter is, 99% of people who rubbish Ford haven't!

Precisely. The industry keeps stats on 'conversion' rates per se....(along wth lots of other stuff) to see how many people that drive the car buy it. Most Ford products are pretty high up that list....especially cars like fiesta and mondeo (and probably FG falcon too now).

I was asked recently by my aunty to give her a list of a few SUVs that her friend may like to look at it. It appears this lady friend needs a bigger car to take over form her corolla....with two sons likely to be growing up pretty tall as they get into their teens and with a bit of penchant for camping (light gravel work) seems like one of the many 'medium suvs' is the go (seven seats would be good).

Off the top of of my head, not really know much about what this lady wanted to do with the car (does a fair bit of surburban driving too), i sent for: Ford Territory (2/4wd), Toyota Kluger(4wd), Hyundai Sante Fe, Kia Sorento (last two prob diesel) etc. Maybe mitsu challenger (just launched) for more off road work...

Before any discussion of the merits of the cars my aunty said that 'she will probably go for the kluger....she has always had toyotas...'. Gee, typical toyo buyer there. I'm not saying the Territory should have got the sale (i did suggest waiting for the 6sp autos on RWD models later this year if not in a hurry to buy) but what was wrong with considering the other cars?

Given this lady is 'not really into cars so is looking for some help' wouldn't she consider any car from any manufacturer? Or for that matter, go for the best value car (prob the kia)? The kluger was the most expensive car on the list (fro memory) and is far from the best since the FWD version (to save gas around town) probably would not be so great on gravel.....

i told my aunty to give her my details if she is having problems but i'm not expecting a call......ahh....i give up some times!!!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Holden have a history of selling well of the back of marketing spin and fancy technical acronyms that in reality amount to little....

Their target consumers seem to believe what they read and hear..

Well interacting with their target consumers I can see why this happens!! lol (someone had to say it).

Originally Posted by Brazen

Reading the review, something just struck me. Do you think the FG engine is one of the most underated engines in the world being produced today?

Many people have been saying this for a long time on here, why do you think there was a huge outcry when the I6 was to be dropped. It'll be disappointing when this engine is finally retired.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by ESP

Yep , and there lies the biggest question ?
The Commodore is firmly fixed in Australian Culture now. It is the "peoples" car and the only way for the Falcon to dethrone it is for FORD to slash the price point on the bread and butter models ( XT , XR6 , G6 ).........

Not quite true as the "peoples" car is really a myth perpetuated by Holden's way of operating to gain this so called appeal.

Approx 75% of Commode sales are "fleet" and it is well known that Holden discount the bejesus out of them to gain this market, thus not making a great deal of dollars but it perpetuates the myth it is being sold to the "people".

Ford are on record as indicating they will NOT discount the Falcon to the same extent just to gain a "fleet" sale as it is not worth it in the long haul and we all know which companies books are in the best shape.

Unfortunately its another fact not widly publicised to the masses.

[chevypower]

It will help Ford with the resale thing though, and dealers won't have to give them away, just for the numbers game. Ford may end up being more profitable in the end. The resale thing will sway more new buyers later on.

[Chilliman]

The article has sparked a blog on an American forum:

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8108...con/index.html

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Not quite true as the "peoples" car is really a myth perpetuated by Holden's way of operating to gain this so called appeal.

Approx 75% of Commode sales are "fleet" and it is well known that Holden discount the bejesus out of them to gain this market, thus not making a great deal of dollars but it perpetuates the myth it is being sold to the "people".

Ah Ah......I still stand by my point. The decisions in BIG BUSINESS are still made by "people". These people are usually the bean counters and the bean counters will always go for the better $$ value option based on purchase pricing, fleet discounts, running and repair costs. For whatever reason, the COMMODORE seems to come out in front. The monthly sales figures show this, and the gap back to Falcon is quite large.

Either way, alot of fleet / Rental car purchases are supplemented by small Hyundais and Toyotas as well as Falcon and Commodore so FORD need to find another excuse for their poor 2nd place......unless of course they are happy to be there ?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ESP

Ah Ah......I still stand by my point. The decisions in BIG BUSINESS are still made by "people". These people are usually the bean counters and the bean counters will always go for the better $$ value option based on purchase pricing, fleet discounts, running and repair costs. For whatever reason, the COMMODORE seems to come out in front. The monthly sales figures show this, and the gap back to Falcon is quite large.

Either way, alot of fleet / Rental car purchases are supplemented by small Hyundais and Toyotas as well as Falcon and Commodore so FORD need to find another excuse for their poor 2nd place......unless of course they are happy to be there ?

Id happily sell less cars if it meant i made more profit.......


No point selling the most cars if you loose money doing it.

Stakeholders and shareholders look at profit and dividend before market share, the key is to grow both at the same rate.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

The article has sparked a blog on an American forum:

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/8108...con/index.html

Going by that the Americans there screaming to have what we have here (the inline six), which makes you think that it's all about money & how to get more for less.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Funny that, I was just thinking this the other day.

Me too : Good advertising, straight to the point.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by chevypower

It will help Ford with the resale thing though, and dealers won't have to give them away, just for the numbers game. Ford may end up being more profitable in the end. The resale thing will sway more new buyers later on.

Good point. Holden is the only manufacturer I can recall who's sent customers cheques under the guise of rebates for dropping pricing on a model which bastardised resale values. I believe the Advantra was the culprit.

Holden's marketing department might be clever, releasing a 'limited edition' model every 2nd month (think equipe, vacationer, V spec on a Omega etc) but what it does is bastardise 2nd hand value. Not too many private buyers are silly enough to get done twice. Perhaps this is one of the reasons fleet sales are so important to Commodore sales numbers. Ford sells far many more higher spec models of Falcon than the base model, and the private buyer percentage is much greater than the trash sold on the other side of the road.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Bring back 'have you driven a Ford lately'?

In the past six months or so, I've closed a few of my posts with that line, because I reckon it can be truly effective.
People rely on perception far, far too much when it comes to a car.
If people are willing to buy an inferior car for less and money is all it comes down to, then fine. You cannot help that.
However, when wanting to purchase the best car for the best price, you need to get peopel to at least test the car. They may not buy it, but perhaps over time their once-rigid beliefs can change .

The last time I saw the 'Have you Driven a Ford Lately?' line was during the E-Series, along with the old Laser, which was hardly a high point in Ford's Australian lineup.

We now have the Falcon which is one of the best cars in its class if not the best, the Fiesta, the Focus and the Territory which like the Falcon, are great cars.

Ford needs to alter perception once again and with the current offerings, can now afford to.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Bring back 'have you driven a Ford lately'?

Because the fact of the matter is, 99% of people who rubbish Ford haven't!

This is a great idea, Ford have used it for many decades (USA included). Plus, i think using it and have it coincide with the Falcons 50th anniversary would create positive public perception. I still remember the last jingle; "Have you driven a Fooord late-ly?"

[naddis01]

Is it just me that thinks that 'have you driven a Ford lately' sounds a little desperate? A little like Mitsubishi's old 'please consider'.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by ESP

Ah Ah......I still stand by my point. The decisions in BIG BUSINESS are still made by "people". These people are usually the bean counters and the bean counters will always go for the better $$ value option based on purchase pricing, fleet discounts, running and repair costs. For whatever reason, the COMMODORE seems to come out in front. The monthly sales figures show this, and the gap back to Falcon is quite large...

Now your mixing up your "people" Nothing to do with bean counter people.

The Commodore is firmly fixed in Australian Culture now. It is the "peoples" car

People definition as per your initial comment above and mine relates to the normal off the street mums and dads. That is the perception Holden aim for via the No1 car sales in Oz etc. It is to give the perception that normal mums and dads are buying them in droves and they are No1 because of this so you better go buy one etc. But its not true as 75% are very heavily discounted base model fleet sales that are making their monthly sales figures higher than Fords, not sales to "people", so in reality which is really the peoples car !!.

Ford sells more upmarket model Falcons to average mums and dads than Holden sell Commodes to and thus as 4Vman says at a greater overall profit, so whose smarter !!!

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Now your mixing up your "people" Nothing to do with bean counter people.

The Commodore is firmly fixed in Australian Culture now. It is the "peoples" car

People definition as per your initial comment above and mine relates to the normal off the street mums and dads. That is the perception Holden aim for via the No1 car sales in Oz etc. It is to give the perception that normal mums and dads are buying them in droves and they are No1 because of this so you better go buy one etc. But its not true as 75% are very heavily discounted base model fleet sales that are making their monthly sales figures higher than Fords, not sales to "people", so in reality which is really the peoples car !!.

Ford sells more upmarket model Falcons to average mums and dads than Holden sell Commodes to and thus as 4Vman says at a greater overall profit, so whose smarter !!!

Just to confuse matters further....because i like doing stuff like that....fleet cars are driven by real 'people'. I know ford is not selling many XTs these days (most fleet sales are XR6....which is a pretty far departure from the original intention of the xr6 but lets not go there...), but at least the FGs they do sell (be it fleets or private) are very good cars.

Sure there have been issues, wether teathing problems with the car, spec levels, some build quality complaints etc. but in general the reception for FG has been very good. Even on here (aff are pretty hard task masters) FG has the perception of being a pretty well scerewed together car and one with alot of really positive attributes (be it perf, nvh, fuel efficiency etc.). THere are stats to back up this positive reception.

holden's problem is that while they may be getting lots of fleet sales (albeit for little profit) the car (in base form esp) isn't very good. Whether it is dated interior, poor base engine etc. those people that atcually have to drive the 'fleet' cars aren't going to be looking on it too kindly. Back when EF etc. wre on sale the base Gli was very very base. ANyone that has tried to mod them knows that ford sold so many to fleets at a very low price they even took to putting a separate, GLi spec cut down wiring loom to save money!! The lower spec FGs seem to be worth more than what the fleets are probably paying for them, are delivering on what ford promised. The VE isn't. When I4T/Li LPG come along i suspect Ford will recomence a concerted fleet attack but even then it will be on a profitable basis.

Finally, to finish off my discertation on the 'fleet' situaton for holden, i think they may find this fleet focus will backfire once Ford and Toyota launch their fleet spec cars soon. As i mentioned ford has some ammo yet to launch on this issue and Toyota is putting Camry hybrid out there and given the presence of camrys in most fleets i'd say that will go quite well. Moreover, if the repeated 'reviews' that show the 3.0 SIDI as struggling to match its supposed 'fuel miser' rep with real world results are accurate then fleets will be jumping back the other way soon enough. The average punter (esp holden fan boy) may not realise their berlina is atcually fuel hungry but i bet the major fleets are noticing it with their recorded fuel cards.....

[bigdude1011]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I know ford is not selling many XTs these days

And most of the ones that are being sold to the AFP. When you're in Canberra, drive 10+km below the limit, and put your phone away if you see an unmarked FG Falcon XT

[prydey]

i know ford are pretty much built to order now, but not sure with holden. didn't dealers used buy and register so many cars, bumping up the sales? isn't that why a couple of dealers went down middle of last year and had to virtually 'give away' a lot of their stock?

sales figures don't have no bearing on whether one car is better than another. the same mistake gets made with corolla!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

Good point. Holden is the only manufacturer I can recall who's sent customers cheques under the guise of rebates for dropping pricing on a model which bastardised resale values. I believe the Advantra was the culprit.

Ford were sent a rebate cheque for $4000 from Holden as part of the cash back offer, on an Adventra Ford had in their test fleet. The rebate was started after the Territory went on sale and smashed the Adventra.

Geoof Polites had the cheque framed and hung on the wall of his office.

[Watto_Cobra]

Uncle Geoff

RIP :(

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by prydey

i know ford are pretty much built to order now, but not sure with holden. didn't dealers used buy and register so many cars, bumping up the sales? isn't that why a couple of dealers went down middle of last year and had to virtually 'give away' a lot of their stock?

sales figures don't have no bearing on whether one car is better than another. the same mistake gets made with corolla!

No that was because dealers couldnt get floor plan finance when GMAC went down.

In saying that however Holden still builds to fill paddocks so to speak while Ford doesnt have holding stock like they use to in the old days... Theres good and bad points to consider in this as usually it means customers have to wait up to 6 weeks to get a car, where as in 2004 for example Ford would already have a car in stock ready to go.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

No that was because dealers couldnt get floor plan finance when GMAC went down.

In saying that however Holden still builds to fill paddocks so to speak while Ford doesnt have holding stock like they use to in the old days... Theres good and bad points to consider in this as usually it means customers have to wait up to 6 weeks to get a car, where as in 2004 for example Ford would already have a car in stock ready to go.

6 weeks wait is nothing in the scheme of things, there is a 10 week wait on luxury spec CX7's atm, we waited 4 months for my wifes SLK230 a few years ago...

[Franco Cozzo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14XCgzCcfsk

Something like this would be good.