Junkies vs Hoons

[FCleader]

Originally Posted by MAD

What cities in what countries? How many of those with HIV were not users?
This sounds awfully like a 'case study' and they are never biased towards a particular outcome. (End sarcasm)

No, our roads are not made for racing, or misbehaving, nor are our parks are made for junkies to shoot up in. Yet only one gets a solution.
The other has to pay for themselves if they are lucky enough to have a facility near them.

Skidpans, drift tracks, drag strips are just ideas, subsidised gokarts could be another.

I'd like to see some stats on how many innocent people are killed each year by 'hooning' accidents. By innocent I mean the passengers of the car that was t-boned after 'hoon' ran a red light, the passengers of the car that was hit head on after 'hoon' lost control of their car on a bend, passengers that didnt want to be in the car with 'hoon' before they hit a tree.
I'm not sure the figures are recorded in a fashion that would allow this though.

The city with the program was Liverpool, England. Specifically a housing estate with 22,000 families living in it, and in order to get the drugs/needles exchanged you have to have regular counselling, they don't just handout drugs to users.
The city without the program is New York City, and I was saying there are approx. 200,000 drug injectors half of which have HIV, so of the 200,000 drug injectors, 100,000 have HIV. Im not including people who contracted HIV through other means. (The lecturer hasn't referrenced this info, so take it with a grain of salt if you so wish).

If you're after statistics go the Australian Bureau of Statistics and do some research.
As for how many people are killed by hoons I dont think the data is that specific, but in 2009 1417 people died from land transport accident, http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....A?opendocument, however in 2001 1,038 people died from drug induced deaths. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@..../3321.0.55.001 (I know this is old but its the latest data I could find).
So I would say more people die from drugs than hooning as those statistics include all deaths caused by vehicles and is not specific to hooning.

And like I said before hoons can make a conscience decision not to hoon and go the drags, drug users aren't in a proper state of mind and are addicted therefore need help.
'Hoons' have to pay because drag racing and circuit racing and so on are hobbies and the government shouldn't have to fund your hobby.

Im not saying hooning is any less of a problem, but subsidising activities for hoons is ridiculous, how do you prove you're a hoon, you can't. So you could just rock up to go karts and say "Hey, I'm a hoon I want the government discount thanks" and have a fun day with your mates/kids/family whatever, which is then rewarding people for stupid behaviour.

Giving government money tohelp people who are a detriment to society ie, drug users, isn't the best use for it, however, rewarding people for making a conscience decision to endanger someones life is worse.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by FCleader

The city with the program was Liverpool, England. Specifically a housing estate with 22,000 families living in it, and in order to get the drugs/needles exchanged you have to have regular counselling, they don't just handout drugs to users.
The city without the program is New York City, and I was saying there are approx. 200,000 drug injectors half of which have HIV, so of the 200,000 drug injectors, 100,000 have HIV. Im not including people who contracted HIV through other means. (The lecturer hasn't referrenced this info, so take it with a grain of salt if you so wish).

There could be so many more things that influence those figures. What's the per-capita average of HIV infections in both locations? Per-capita average of homeless people in each location?
Case studies always remove all of the clutter and simplify as much as possible because it is easier to use as an example.

Originally Posted by FCleader

If you're after statistics go the Australian Bureau of Statistics and do some research.
As for how many people are killed by hoons I dont think the data is that specific, but in 2009 1417 people died from land transport accident, http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....A?opendocument, however in 2001 1,038 people died from drug induced deaths. http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@..../3321.0.55.001 (I know this is old but its the latest data I could find).
So I would say more people die from drugs than hooning as those statistics include all deaths caused by vehicles and is not specific to hooning.

I probably could find the figures I'm after but I honestly cant be bothered mining for the information that is essentially only going to be used for this discussion and will have no real meaning or change the outcome at all. This is of course only a discussion, a forum of ideas and opinions.

So let me run with some hypothetical figures...
Lets say 5% of all road deaths are hooning related, and 80% of them are innocent people (ie. not the driver, the decision maker). That gives us about 57 people killed by the actions of a hoon.
Are those 57 not worth enough for something to be done to help curb the incidence of hooning related deaths, rather than something that looks good as a headline?
How many people killed by the decisions of a person-that-would-use-an-injecting-room have been saved by introducing injecting rooms?
What are the priorities?

The media have portrayed the 'hoon' image so much so that anyone that might even squeak a tyre from the traffic lights will be frowned upon by the sheep of society.
Should they just let it go and let the world decide the fate rather than try to force their hand in a situation that is ultimately uncontrollable?

Originally Posted by FCleader

And like I said before hoons can make a conscience decision not to hoon and go the drags, drug users aren't in a proper state of mind and are addicted therefore need help.
'Hoons' have to pay because drag racing and circuit racing and so on are hobbies and the government shouldn't have to fund your hobby.

If you want to argue state of mind, then what effect does testosterone have on the decision making centres of the brain? If upbringing can be blamed for drug usage, can peer pressure ever be blamed for hooning?

So a drug user should get a hand out simply cause they're addicted? Didnt they ever make a choice regarding the usage of drugs, they just woke up one day addicted?

Originally Posted by FCleader

]Im not saying hooning is any less of a problem, but subsidising activities for hoons is ridiculous, how do you prove you're a hoon, you can't. So you could just rock up to go karts and say "Hey, I'm a hoon I want the government discount thanks" and have a fun day with your mates/kids/family whatever, which is then rewarding people for stupid behaviour.

Giving government money tohelp people who are a detriment to society ie, drug users, isn't the best use for it, however, rewarding people for making a conscience decision to endanger someones life is worse.

It's got nothing to do with rewarding people for their actions, It's about trying to find something that might actualy help reduce the incidence of it occuring.
Although positive reinforcement for good driving behaviour would be fantastic, but how do you photograph that?

[FCleader]

Originally Posted by MAD

There could be so many more things that influence those figures. What's the per-capita average of HIV infections in both locations? Per-capita average of homeless people in each location?
Case studies always remove all of the clutter and simplify as much as possible because it is easier to use as an example.

As I said the info wasn't referrenced so think what you want about it.

Originally Posted by MAD

So let me run with some hypothetical figures...
Lets say 5% of all road deaths are hooning related, and 80% of them are innocent people (ie. not the driver, the decision maker). That gives us about 57 people killed by the actions of a hoon.
Are those 57 not worth enough for something to be done to help curb the incidence of hooning related deaths, rather than something that looks good as a headline?
How many people killed by the decisions of a person-that-would-use-an-injecting-room have been saved by introducing injecting rooms?
What are the priorities?

I think there should be as much done about hooning as possible to reduce deaths and damage caused by hooning, but what you have suggested so far is subsidising events such as go karting, which is rewarding people for hooning.
Maybe something along the lines of putting hoons on probation/counselling, limiting the power of the cars they drive (for a period of time) and mandatory defensive/advanced driving courses, would be more appropriate. Im not sure.

Originally Posted by MAD

If you want to argue state of mind, then what effect does testosterone have on the decision making centres of the brain? If upbringing can be blamed for drug usage, can peer pressure ever be blamed for hooning?

The upbringing of a molestered or beaten child or someone who has grown up around drugs is completely different to that of a person being peer pressured to do a burnout. And I know that people take drugs for a lot of different reasons peer pressure included, but drugs have a huge effect on a person and can quickly turn into an addiction before the person realises.
No I dont think peer pressure could ever be blamed for hooning as at the end of the day you make the decision, not other people.

Originally Posted by MAD

So a drug user should get a hand out simply cause they're addicted? Didnt they ever make a choice regarding the usage of drugs, they just woke up one day addicted?

They don't get hand-outs, these programs are aimed at treating an addiction, for people who can't afford private rehab centres.
Yes they did make a decision to take drugs, however, drugs have a much greater effect on the brain and can cause serious mental illness, which needs to be treated.

Originally Posted by MAD

It's got nothing to do with rewarding people for their actions, It's about trying to find something that might actualy help reduce the incidence of it occuring.
Although positive reinforcement for good driving behaviour would be fantastic, but how do you photograph that?

As mentioned before what you have suggested is rewarding people for hooning, well it seems that way to me.
I actually think that authorities are doing quite alot to reduce hooning already. Especially if you think about how many people take drugs compared to how many people hoon.

[SEZ213]

How did this turn into a drug thread?

The original post by the OP was that those who shoot up get a designated place to do it, the 'hoon' doesn't have such avenues readily at their disposal. Which is very evident, particularly when you look at the Gold Coast and see that the tracks are being shut down...they're essentially forcing them onto the streets, as opposed to being positive in their approach and understanding that there are people who want to race their vehicles, and give them a place to do it.

Willowbank is up the road from me, so I'm not so worried, but for a lot of people, places like Willowbank are reserved for weekends, and not everyone has that kind of cash available...

I think the long and the short is heroine is illegal, so is racing on the streets, and yet they banter to the heroine users by creating 'safe' places for them, and punish car enthusiasts by removing their avenues for enjoyment.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

How did this turn into a drug thread?

I think the long and the short is heroine is illegal, so is racing on the streets, and yet they banter to the heroine users by creating 'safe' places for them, and punish car enthusiasts by removing their avenues for enjoyment.

Because people like yourself are asking why there's injecting rooms for addicts but no skid pans for hoons. They're two completely different methods and aims for tackling a problem.

There's a strip at Easter Creek which I believe is open at least every Wed. Has it curbed hoon behaviour? Right now about a block from me some clown is doing a burnout. I live 15 minutes drive from Eastern Creek where people are doing them legally right now. I can now hear another clown screeching round corners with a fart can ricer.

You just can't equate an addiction to acting like an idiot in a car. One is a dependency and one is a choice. I'd prefer there were avenues for those unable to afford treatment to break the cycle of drug addiction because those services are better than none at all. I'm ambivalent about a skid pan doing anything to curb boneheaded behaviour on public roads.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by FCleader

The upbringing of a molestered or beaten child or someone who has grown up around drugs is completely different to that of a person being peer pressured to do a burnout. And I know that people take drugs for a lot of different reasons peer pressure included, but drugs have a huge effect on a person and can quickly turn into an addiction before the person realises.
No I dont think peer pressure could ever be blamed for hooning as at the end of the day you make the decision, not other people.

You say it's a decision as though they would not feel remorse if someone died as a result.
Rational thoughts are far from the mindset of a young driver with a car full of mates egging him on to do something stupid.
It is inexperience that lets them down in that instance. Without knowing the full extent of the potential consequences, a detailed decision involving multiple scenarios could not be processed prior to the action.


The gokarts idea, I agree it's not the answer, but instead just saying it wont work, how about we get some ideas flowing of why it wont work so that those ideas may help us head towards a better understanding of what will work.

I for one firmly believe in positive reinforcement, and heavy punishment. Unfortunately you can take a photo of courteous road behavior, or any of the other multitudes of good driving examples that happen everyday. The same way you cant photograph tail-gating or changing lanes without an indicator, or just general holier-than-thou road usage.

Positive reinforcement could come in the form of heavily reduced registration and licensing fees, for no speeding fines over a period of time, the opposite should ring true also but within reason. I wouldnt want to see your average Joe being stung with increased rego for the occasional 4km/h over speeding fine, but for what I would call hooning offences (idiocy on the roads)
Eg. Massively over the speed limit (as a percentage though so that 40 over in a 50 zone is more heavily frowned upon than 40 over on the open road for example), Street racing, just the real stupid stuff you see in the papers.

[JC]

Originally Posted by flappist

Shame most of the tracks are in the capital cities, 600km is a long drive to have a play day.

And none in THE Capital city! Just out of curiosity, how many needle exchange places or shoot up places (legal) in your neck of the woods - as many as drag strips I'd say.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Because people like yourself are asking why there's injecting rooms for addicts but no skid pans for hoons. They're two completely different methods and aims for tackling a problem.

There's a strip at Easter Creek which I believe is open at least every Wed. Has it curbed hoon behaviour? Right now about a block from me some clown is doing a burnout. I live 15 minutes drive from Eastern Creek where people are doing them legally right now. I can now hear another clown screeching round corners with a fart can ricer.

You just can't equate an addiction to acting like an idiot in a car. One is a dependency and one is a choice. I'd prefer there were avenues for those unable to afford treatment to break the cycle of drug addiction because those services are better than none at all. I'm ambivalent about a skid pan doing anything to curb boneheaded behaviour on public roads.

I see your point re 'hoons' and Eastern Creek, but disagree with your analogy that heroine is a dependency...first and foremost it's a choice, and always has been. One simple word will suffice for both of these groups to not get into trouble - No.

There is a big difference between hoon and car enthusiast, the 'hoon' will never go to Eastern Creek, the car enthusiast will...the car enthusiast (for the most part) appreciates the rules of the road. Unfortunately Joe Public doesn't see that distinction...and they really should.

I'm not going into the drug part, except to say it turned the hometown that I loved into a cesspool, all courtesy of 'those in charge'.

The avenues that have been previously available to car enthusiasts are being removed (Gold Coast is case in point). I for one would like to know why?

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I see your point re 'hoons' and Eastern Creek, but disagree with your analogy that heroine is a dependency...first and foremost it's a choice, and always has been. One simple word will suffice for both of these groups to not get into trouble - No.

Initially it's a choice that very quickly becomes a dependency. Injection rooms attempt to turn that dependency back into a choice. There would be very few people able to kick a heroin habit by simply saying no.

[FGII-XR6]

the bigest problem with this thread is it's an us against them thread, addiction is a health issue that needs to be addressed on many fronts. hooning is a choice made in the absence if any addiction so it is still a choice, that having been said there is a geniuine need for facilities where drivers can cut loose without endangering the general public. I see a need for services for both issues but this "we are more worthy" is not a valid arguement, for starters they would be funded from completly different government departments, and closing one program that is proven to work to finance a recreational activity is just plain madness.
those interested need to lobby their local members, this won't take 5 minutes to fix but how do you think the needle programs got off the ground it was a long hard slog by Drug and alcohol professionals including 1 doctor who risked his career to get some action
so come on get ready for action instead of wanting things handed to you on a platter , lazy whingers will get nothing

[FCleader]

Originally Posted by MAD

Positive reinforcement could come in the form of heavily reduced registration and licensing fees, for no speeding fines over a period of time, the opposite should ring true also but within reason. I wouldnt want to see your average Joe being stung with increased rego for the occasional 4km/h over speeding fine, but for what I would call hooning offences (idiocy on the roads)
Eg. Massively over the speed limit (as a percentage though so that 40 over in a 50 zone is more heavily frowned upon than 40 over on the open road for example), Street racing, just the real stupid stuff you see in the papers.

I whole heartedly agree with you here, a system similar to insurance ie rating 1 is the best, results in reduced rego, fees and so on would be an excellent idea.
I think it would actually have an impact on a persons driving behaviour. Knowing that because I've done something stupid my rego is going to go up as a direct result would stop me doing something dangerous.