E85 vs THE REST!

[prasac]

Originally Posted by madwag

so how long would it take to break even after having all the work done on the car to have it run on E85?

most people that upgrade wouldn't look at doing it to save $'s. for any performance upgrade on the market. $ per HP, E85 is the best upgrade. you have a fuel that has the potential to take the car to any HP level.

[dieseltrain79]

Funny , my mates 1JZ Cressida , C16 made 260rwkw on 22psi . 1 shot of N20 ran 304rwkw and 2nd shot made 347rwkw .

E85 it made 302rwkw @ same boost . 1 shot of N20 made 357 rwkw !!!

Car went 6 tenths and 4mph faster than C16 . We put this down to the cooling properties of the E85 as it burns cooler than C16 .

Worked with nitrous really well in this setup .

[madwag]

Originally Posted by prasac

most people that upgrade wouldn't look at doing it to save $'s. for any performance upgrade on the market. $ per HP, E85 is the best upgrade. you have a fuel that has the potential to take the car to any HP level.

Good point, how much would it cost (roughly) for me to take my stock car to some one. Ask them to do some magic and i can use e85??

[prasac]

Originally Posted by madwag

Good point, how much would it cost (roughly) for me to take my stock car to some one. Ask them to do some magic and i can use e85??

the cost of injectors, good fuel filter (not paper) fuel pump, tune and labour. if u get injectors get a set of atomisers like the ID1000-ID2000 etc.

Atomiser Injectors $1000
1000hp Fuel pump $350
Fuel Filter $150 (check/change filter after 2000km)

so $1500 plus whatever they slug ya for a tune.

[madwag]

Originally Posted by prasac

the cost of injectors, good fuel filter (not paper) fuel pump, tune and labour. if u get injectors get a set of atomisers like the ID1000-ID2000 etc.

Atomiser Injectors $1000
1000hp Fuel pump $350
Fuel Filter $150 (check/change filter after 2000km)

so $1500 plus whatever they slug ya for a tune.

So $1500 + a tune = 5% more power so thats something like 10kw
But cheaper fuel.
And if my maths is correct, not including a tune, it will take 3750L of E85 at $1.10 compared to BP98 at $1.50 to break even.

thats not to bad, some people will do that in a year. and you gain performance too.

[graham_h]

so not looking at performance for the moment......... purely the eco side of E85 wouldn't one of these kits be a cheaper option ?
Aussie Ethanol Conversion Kits


seem to be straight forward piggy back processor ?

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by FreddyDUZ747

Shav,my lines on the BA are the same as the AU by memory and mine are good for 450rwkw+ on E85.You know where she is tuned

That's a relief mate. I was always under the impression I had to change lines. If it's just bigger injectors for me, then I could effectively run E85 straight plus a tune. Interesting.

[prasac]

Originally Posted by madwag

So $1500 + a tune = 5% more power so thats something like 10kw
But cheaper fuel.
And if my maths is correct, not including a tune, it will take 3750L of E85 at $1.10 compared to BP98 at $1.50 to break even.

thats not to bad, some people will do that in a year. and you gain performance too.

the NA cars i have seen tended to pick up around 5-8%, it's better with forced induction.

cheaper fuel is not the only other benefit. we have noticed
better throttle response
engine sounds happier
runs 20F+ cooler
quicker spool
lower IAT
lower CO2 so if u are trying to kill urself by exhaust gases u have a little longer incase u change ur mind

it's basically a legal race fuel and it's only about $1.15/L

[prasac]

Originally Posted by graham_h

so not looking at performance for the moment......... purely the eco side of E85 wouldn't one of these kits be a cheaper option ?
Aussie Ethanol Conversion Kits


seem to be straight forward piggy back processor ?

you will need to check to make sure. the good thing about the Flex Fuel vehicles is they adjust the tune automatically. so if u go from E70 Winter blend to an E85 Summer blend or vice versa the car will autmatically adjust according to AFR's.


the only bad thing about E85 is the sensors will need to be replaced more often. 100,000km sensors u might only get 70,000km of correct reading.

Vince the tuner of my brother's cars has done alot of E85 tunes over the last couple of years, he is not getting the life out of them like he used to. a good professional tuner should pickup straight away that the sensor is not right, i have seen cars tuned on the dyno with faulty sensors and then have big problems at the track. you think you go in and get a tune which is spot on but it could really be a few AFR points or more out.

[TruBlu351]

Good thread!

I should have my new 434 n/a E85 stroker getting assembled in the new year! Should be cranking out some power when it's done.

Have you seen many n/a guys using it down at the strip? I see it's mostly the forced induction guys.

[TruBlu351]

I think that talk about E85 being thicker is probably just the confusion about what's already been written, that it has less energy that petrol and you need a heap more of it.....hence the requirement for a much bigger fuel system from pump to injectors or carby......I'll be running a 1050 E85 Dominator.

The stroich AFR for petrol is about 14.7:1 or 13:1 @ WOT. The stoich AFR for E85 is way down to 9.8:1 (methanol is about 6:1)....so you can see it needs to have a lot more of it to keep the ratio right........as mentioned, that's the main reason you can't just filler 'er up and go, unless you have a new fuel map ready to go (for EFI). I'm running the carby so don't have the luxury of being able to change the tune quickly.....so that means the variable Caltex BioFlex is out (E70-85).....the United E85 is always at 85% ethanol, but being a limited street/strip car, I'll just buy a barrel of race E85. I've seen some cool ethanol sensors (as used in flex vehicles) which measures the ethanol % in the tank....so the EFI keeps up with E10 or E85.

I bought one of those Quickfuel E85 test tubes, but I ended up getting some 100ml measuring cylinders from a local scientific parts supplier....they are much more accurate. Just mix 50ml of distilled water with 48ml of E85. I'll see if I can attach the PDF file on how to do it.

Here's what it looks like when you do a test. You can see the ethanol goes quick cloudy with the water and the ULP separates out on top.



Here's a quick table I drew up a while back. It shows the decreasing AFR as the fuel moves to the right......ie: fuels on the right, need more fuel!

[TruBlu351]

Here's a file that shows you how to do the E85 % test.....and the formula you need to use to crunch the numbers.

Something I found is that you don't need to SHAKE the mix really hard. Water bonds with ethanol MUCH better than with ULP, so just a really light tipping back and forth for a moment is enough to mix the water & E85. If you shake it really hard, it will take much longer for the mix to settle down for an accurate reading.

Mixing water and ethanol is also an exothermic reaction.....the measuring cylinder gets warmer when you add the water.....bit of useless info for ya!

You may also hear a lot of hype about "phase separation" where your E85 will absorb so much water from the atmosphere that the ULP separates out of the fuel solution....as seen in the test above. The bad thing with this is that there is potential for your engine to get a big gulp of 91/98ULP and no ethanol....which will cause some serious detonation of that ever happened. BUT from my tests, you need so much water in the E85 for this to happen, that I just can't imaging it ever happening unless you accidently filled up with a fire hydrant ;)

Here's a pic with just enough water added to show the pinky globules of ULP forming on the top of the water (looking from underneath in a 2L bottle). Can't recall the exact numbers, but for a full fuel tank, you'd need to add a gallon or 2 of water.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by prasac

did he re-jet the NOS setup for E85 or just use the same as he had before?

doesn't seem right that he didn't pickup.

No it wasn't .. didn't want to on std assembly..
Originally only used for spool with BTR trans..
With trans brake .. It's not required..
You would think it would make some difference tho..
NOT sure if he armed it the whole run ??? Either...
Nothing in trans broke.. THIS time..

[wrongwaynorris]

For standard road cars check this site out , http://www.flexfuelkits.com.au/

[prasac]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

No it wasn't .. didn't want to on std assembly..
Originally only used for spool with BTR trans..
With trans brake .. It's not required..
You would think it would make some difference tho..
NOT sure if he armed it the whole run ??? Either...
Nothing in trans broke.. THIS time..

once you go to E85 and NOS you need to pretty much double the jet size. the sizes he had in there would have maybe produced 10-20hp.

TruBlu351 more and more NA guys are using it down the track now. it's a cheap fuel and does the job, so alot of guys are slowly making the switch. not as fast as what the forced induction guys are but slowly.

as mentioned a little bit of water will not effect a larger amount of E85, we tried a drum once had a few hundred ml of water, performed fine.

[Giant]

Direct injection LPG is also good fuel high octane, clean burning and cheap, Also provides good gains if you increase CR to match.

[Giant]

Whats the burn rate of E85 at and does it change with load and RPM?

[rednose]

Originally Posted by prasac

the cost of injectors, good fuel filter (not paper) fuel pump, tune and labour. if u get injectors get a set of atomisers like the ID1000-ID2000 etc.

Atomiser Injectors $1000
1000hp Fuel pump $350
Fuel Filter $150 (check/change filter after 2000km)

so $1500 plus whatever they slug ya for a tune.

Hey Pras,
Is there a reason you advise not to use a paper filter?

I use a paper filter but do change it at 15,000.

Should I be switching to a metal filter?

[prasac]

Originally Posted by rednose

Hey Pras,
Is there a reason you advise not to use a paper filter?

I use a paper filter but do change it at 15,000.

Should I be switching to a metal filter?

heya Rednose, you don't have to switch to metal, just heard a few people say the paper ones degrade a bit and get all messed up.

[prasac]

E85 torque baby. taken last night, left with 1-2psi less boost than we normally have. she thought she was a plane

[graham_h]

Great pic....LOL....anyways...ran my old xt on 16ltr of e85 mixed in a full tank of 98. ran very well... no issues at all. 35c per ltr cheaper too....bonus. Injectors and fuel pump will be next on the list then I'll look at bulk buying...as my closest e85 pump is 180ks away.

[TruBlu351]

A video of that would be awesome!!

[prasac]

Originally Posted by TruBlu351

A video of that would be awesome!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0S8EfmLTZk will show just how consistent E85 is, when the car didn't wheelstand or lose traction at the launch it would run 8.3's all day, plus we even drove it home on the same fuel and tune.

bit of in-car and how it looked from behind, lil swearing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R14mD7_odUk

Originally Posted by graham_h

Great pic....LOL....anyways...ran my old xt on 16ltr of e85 mixed in a full tank of 98. ran very well... no issues at all. 35c per ltr cheaper too....bonus. Injectors and fuel pump will be next on the list then I'll look at bulk buying...as my closest e85 pump is 180ks away.

beautiful, when it runs better and cheaper how can u complain

[blueoval]

That's bloody awesome Prasac. Another win for E85

[rednose]

Originally Posted by prasac

heya Rednose, you don't have to switch to metal, just heard a few people say the paper ones degrade a bit and get all messed up.

So is there a filter that you recommend or is it ok to stay with paper and change it every 15 thou?

[blueoval]

I would just go a metal filter. No problems then.

[prasac]

Originally Posted by blueoval

That's bloody awesome Prasac. Another win for E85

the surprise is its pump fuel, that was the last of the batch we bought 400L we have had it about 3 months, plus who knows how long it was at the petrol station and it was still consistent. so the question does it go stale after a while, well if stored right, no, should be fine for at least 3-4 months.

we put 30L's in at the start of the day, the car had driven to the track (20mins) did 7 passes @ about 1150hp pumping from the engine, had about 5-7L's left for the drive home, we threw another 5L in to be safe. at a cost of $1.15/L cost us $40 in fuel.

it was the hilarious, the guy next to us actually asked if we were going to put any fuel in it, he hadn't seen us put any fuel in and he had gone thru over 60L of methanol already

[prasac]

Originally Posted by rednose

So is there a filter that you recommend or is it ok to stay with paper and change it every 15 thou?

i'd agree with blueoval. it's a little dearer but worth it in the long run.

[FreddyDUZ747]

I think Simon from Extreme had a bad experience with paper filters from memory,this is where I found out the issue with them.

I run a Magnafuel inline filter on my BA

[prasac]

Originally Posted by FreddyDUZ747

I think Simon from Extreme had a bad experience with paper filters from memory,this is where I found out the issue with them.

I run a Magnafuel inline filter on my BA

was he using ethanol or methanol? methanol is not good with paper filters. i know he ran a couple of his cars on methanol.