P platers in performance cars

[lucas2]

I also think its silly..yet p-platers, such as myself, with a fully licensed driver in the passenger seat, can carry a full car load of passengers. However while on my L's I could drive my dad's SS..
The government is too worried about their end of year bonuses, and not funding for driver education

[rvsm]

What has changed since the days when you old people were driving v8's? I am about to buy my first v8 gs ute and have never been in a v8 but I am not one for hooning. I've always had that respect of the road and an ample fear that has kept me alive and helped me not make stupid decisions. If an idiot p player wants to speed and crashes then it's there fault. I think they have the same rights as everyone else. And as for not letting your brother drive an xr6 how strange I've had my fg xr6 since 18. But in this situation I think they should allow p platers what they want.

[falconnut]

its strange how p plates can legally drive a 200rwkw N/A FG but not a older V8 with way less power at the rear wheels.

Makes no sense at all.

[noosacuda]

Originally Posted by NX74205

BUT Idiots will be idiots no matter what car they drive. It's not the car that kills, it's the idiot behind the wheel.

That sums it up for me.

[gumbi_18]

I think it comes down to training - not just for the P-plates but for everyone.

There needs to be some sort of tiered licensing system based on power to weight. You would start out on a certain kw - t which would be properly tested with apptitude and practical testing. To progress to the next band you would need to do further testing which would grant you a higher power to weight ratio license. To keep your level of licensing you would then need retake the entire test every 4 or 5 years to ensure that the driver is current.

Even if someone has twenty years of driving if all of those twenty years were spent driving 4 banger econboxes how are they going to handle a much more powerful car? Sure they might anticpate traffic better but they still will not understand the dynamics of a more powerful car.

This would solve a lot of issues because the drivers would be taught how to properly drive instead of being taught how to follow road rules.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by flappist

No the criminal code covers that. She would have been ok provided that was the only reason.

So what there is a way around it? without getting an exemption from the RTA or whatever its called these days.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by gumbi_18

I think it comes down to training - not just for the P-plates but for everyone.

There needs to be some sort of tiered licensing system based on power to weight. You would start out on a certain kw - t which would be properly tested with apptitude and practical testing. To progress to the next band you would need to do further testing which would grant you a higher power to weight ratio license. To keep your level of licensing you would then need retake the entire test every 4 or 5 years to ensure that the driver is current.

Even if someone has twenty years of driving if all of those twenty years were spent driving 4 banger econboxes how are they going to handle a much more powerful car? Sure they might anticpate traffic better but they still will not understand the dynamics of a more powerful car.

This would solve a lot of issues because the drivers would be taught how to properly drive instead of being taught how to follow road rules.

Could not agree more , the current laws we have were as usual an ill concieved govt plan to be seen to doing something about a problem without actually doing anything meaningfull about it . I also believe it is primarily an attitude problem and you cant legislate an attitude . You can kill yourself ( and others ) just as dead in a 100 kW Pulsar as a 300 kW Commodore . Adding to Gumbis post if I was in Govt I would over the next 10 years revoke everyones licence and actually make them sit a real driving test , imagine how enjoyable driving would be when 70 to 90% of the people currently on the road were off it .

[FPV+fteT3]

Originally Posted by falconnut

its strange how p plates can legally drive a 200rwkw N/A FG but not a older V8 with way less power at the rear wheels.

Makes no sense at all.

The fact is your 200kw FG is not going to make much more power no matter what you do to it excluding FI. The old V8 on the other hand aftermarket bits could see 350+ RWKW without any blowers of any kind.

Back to the OP I think Flappy is onto something here both my girls have their P's both have driven my fast falcons on their L's when they get off their P's they will have no idea what happens if you dont respect the power of a high powered car. On their L's they were a bit intimidated and drove sedately with me riding shotgun now with some years of experience a false sence of security could have developed.
I think if a suitable qualified driver is next to them on their P's it should be used as a learning curve the different coloured plates is a good idea IMO.

[XCwillo]

I can't donk a 150kw 351 V8 in my ute, solely for the fact "Hur da 8 cyrindah it too powahfurl" when a fresh Red p plater can get a 199kw XR6 and bolt on an exhaust, air intake and maybe some hektik unit stickers, then they're over 200kw and still not getting hashed for it.

It should just be no forced induction, and not over 200kw. 8 cylinders kill the same crashing at 80k's as 4 cylinders.

Also, 3 years? Try 5 for me!!
I've done nothing wrong, never had a fine, had my license for 2 years. I have 5 years of P's -_-
Just because I moved from queensland to Victoria (I'm Army), and when i changed my license, they made it as tho i got my license when i was 18 and they have an extra year of P's. I got it when i was 17 in QLD, so that made me have 2 years of red P's, and 3 of green!!!

I've been driving turboed vehicles around for a while now, solely because they are the only cars i have access too on base when we need to head out. This whole P plate law shenanigan business has just made me not give a **** anymore :\
Donking an 8 in the C at the start of next year for sure!

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ben73

So what there is a way around it? without getting an exemption from the RTA or whatever its called these days.

The criminal code covers situations where there is a greater good.

e.g. You are drunk and unlicensed and a person is bitten by a brown. You have no phone but there is a car parked a short way away but no one is about.

You can legally steal the car and drive the bite victim to the closest place where they can get treatment as their life is in extreme danger.

But you can't then drive it home or decide to go to a hospital that is further away or drive if another driver who was not drunk or was licensed or another car or an ambulance was available.

That which is necessary is legal......but you have to prove it was necessary.

But this is going off track.

The idea of this thread is to explore the concept of creating a methodology of allowing lower experienced drivers to be learn about higher performance cars while under supervision.

Unfortunatly it seems to have turned into "I had to wait so everyone else has to" or "Just another hoon loophole"

The P laws are there for safety not punishment. They are rather crude and incongruous yet so many here have no interest in refining them except to continually point out the same flaws over and over again without any viable improvements.

[svo supporter]

This whole performance car thing is a farscical (spelling I know).

What do you define as a performance car??? The gov't has put a blanket ruling saying if it's a V8 or has a turbo, it's a performance car. Sorry, but that's a load of crock.


Yes, you could put an older person beside a P plater and teach them, but if you look at the news, or read the paper, there are older people getting their cars taken off them for hooning, being drunk behind the wheel, etc etc.

Really, a good solution is driver education. Skid pans, speedway driving, rally driving, just to name a few.

Fair enough it's not going to solve the problem, but it may help.

[gtxb67]

i think it is a good idea - if the p plater is treated to all intents like a learner, then gaining experience can only help

[rag top]

Originally Posted by Ben73

So what there is a way around it? without getting an exemption from the RTA or whatever its called these days.

Move to a jurisdiction that does not put restrictions on what P-platers can drive.

[FPV8U]

Would be a good idea, i remember on my P's i drove my Dads 275Rwkw Pursuit ute back from Winton because he was too tired, he agreed that he would pay the fine if i got caught but it was better than us ending up in a tree because he fell asleep at the wheel.

In saying that i bought my XR8 just before my 18th B'day (WA Licence at the time) and funnily enough im still alive..

[78xcgxl]

i think they should make it power to weight ratio and not on how many cylinders the engine has. It makes no sense that a 33 year old fairlane/falcon with a 150kw ( even less with a tired old engine) V8 on a car that weights 1800kg is illegal but it's ok to drive a FG falcon with 190kw+ inline 6 motor on a car that weights 1600kg. Even if the old v8 can make a lot power with aftermarket parts you can't drive a car with a modified engine to increase power on your p-plates.

Cheers

[sierra63]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

What do you define as a performance car??? The gov't has put a blanket ruling saying if it's a V8 or has a turbo, it's a performance car. Sorry, but that's a load of crock.

I wonder what the rule makes were on when they wrote them, it is my understanding that a 'P' plater can not drive a 'Smart' car, because it has a petrol turbo (mounted to 3 cyl), but can take a N/A 911 for a spin......

Go Figure......????

Mind you, watching some of the 'P' platers running around, no matter the engine capacity, with people scattering, and chatting / texting (phones). I swear that most of them must have received a free 'force field' during the upgrade from L's to P's...

[cs123]

Originally Posted by flappist

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Agree completely. I'd go further and say that there should be a log book system filled out to enable a person to graduate to a performance vehicle and a skilled based test.

[DJM83]

I voted no, you raise some good points and ideas Flappy. But IMHO a lot of P platers have gone through the system not being able to drive 'high powered' cars already so i dont see why it cant continue.
The people (generally) that complain about it are IMO the people that are most likely to push their 'fast' car to its limits. Yeah sure there are some motoring enthusiasts in the P plate age group that would treat the car with some respect but a lot wouldnt.
Im happy for L platers to be able to drive Turbo/V8 cars as it maybe the only car they have access to but as soon as they get to their P plates not allowed to drive them, ive never disagreed with the rule.
I wont go into the whole driver education debate though.

[rag top]

It would be better with whatever rule that is applied, it is applied uniformly across the nation. Here in the act, a P plater can drive a turbo or V8.
Can't tow a trailer over a certain limit.
Motorbikes are a different story.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Would be a good idea, i remember on my P's i drove my Dads 275Rwkw Pursuit ute back from Winton because he was too tired, he agreed that he would pay the fine if i got caught but it was better than us ending up in a tree because he fell asleep at the wheel.

In saying that i bought my XR8 just before my 18th B'day (WA Licence at the time) and funnily enough im still alive..

Like most laws, they are put in place to cater for the heel of society. A good, common sense decision like your example should always be fine.. I'm sure the Police wouldn't worry either, not unless they pulled you over for a fault of your own.

This theme would be common. If a 'P' plater drives an XR6T (for example) and never draws unwanted attention, there'd never be an issue. You'd be highly unlikely to ever be pulled over anyway and most likely get away with it (not that anyone should).

[JACK250]

My biggest problem with the system is the inconsistency between L and P plate drivers... Take me for example, on my L's I had driven a falcon with a 427 tunnel port engine, legally. Yet the day I got my P's I could not even drive my dad's 289 mustang, which wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. And even with my dad supervising me I'm still not allowed to drive it... So the only physical difference is that I have had a vicroads tester confirm my driving is up to scratch... And with that confirmation comes a restriction, go figure

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by JACK250

My biggest problem with the system is the inconsistency between L and P plate drivers... Take me for example, on my L's I had driven a falcon with a 427 tunnel port engine, legally. Yet the day I got my P's I could not even drive my dad's 289 mustang, which wouldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. And even with my dad supervising me I'm still not allowed to drive it... So the only physical difference is that I have had a vicroads tester confirm my driving is up to scratch... And with that confirmation comes a restriction, go figure

Why should L and P plate rules be consistent? They're totally different circumstances. To make it simple...

L Plate - Supervised
P Plate - Unsupervised

Not sure why it's hard to understand. Don't take it so literally. The Police aren't miracle workers, they can't monitor everyone at all times. It's what works best with the law and circumstances currently in place. If what they say is true 'speed kills', it's pretty hard to argue with this law. Performance cars go faster, quicker... and are not controlled easily by a novice. Makes sense to me.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by xisled

and bang 200ks on the freeway.

I have a 1.6L WS Fiesta and a 2L TDCI LV Focus, the Fiesta is speed limited to 180km/h and the Focus 200km/h and they're both legal for me to drive.

You don't need a V8 to go fast, only to go fast in a short distance.

In my opinion:

It SHOULD be limited to power to weight ratio like it used to be here pre 2007, it was the best way to limit power, you could still drive things like E series Falcons with the 302 wheezer, but not things like Honda S2000, DC2R, etc which are actually fast cars in the corners.

If I didn't have my Fairmont which I'm in the middle of fixing up, all it takes is a turbo back exhaust, cold air intake, airtec Gen 3 intercooler, up the boost to 18psi, remove the torque limiter on 1st/2nd gear, quaife LSD and a dyno tune and all the sudden my sedate legal TDCI Focus will be going fairly fast and probably keeping up with an XR5 Focus.

Personally, looking around these days and seeing myself with new/recent cars and like 90% of the other P platers out there, they should focus on banning cars with under a 4 star safety rating for new drivers, regardless of the car chances are youngins are going to drive like morons so might as well as get them into something safe to increase their chances of surviving for when they do have that accident.

[BradZ]

As fun as it would be, i can tell you from seeing it happen daily in my home town, a lot of people who are just on their full license, letting their younger L plater friends drive their cars ( Subi STI, VZ SS etc) and the drivers just run rampage.

It would be different if it was a more mature supervisor, these 'supervisors' are about 24 max. And just don't care how the driver handles the car. The same thing would happen with P platers. Chances are if your even remotely interested in driving a high powered car, your equally as interested in finding out just how high powered it is.

[Bucknaked]

Not sure if the P Plate rule applies here in the ACT. I saw a WRX this morning with P Plates and I've seen FPV's and HSV's displaying P Plates.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Not sure if the P Plate rule applies here in the ACT. I saw a WRX this morning with P Plates and I've seen FPV's and HSV's displaying P Plates.

I think ACT and WA are the only two states without vehicle restrictions.

Which is interesting, because I regularily see a WA P plater around my local area here in Victoria with a VE SSV with WA Rego getting about displaying Ps.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I think ACT and WA are the only two states without vehicle restrictions.

Which is interesting, because I regularily see a WA P plater around my local area here in Victoria with a VE SSV with WA Rego getting about displaying Ps.

It surprises me that we don't. We have restrictions for motorcyclists. Power to weight restrictions in place for learners and P Plates.

[Elks]

Originally Posted by flappist

So the question:

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Absolutely.

I now have a daughter on Red P's. She has her own car Fiesta auto and has no hooning interests or tendencies whatsoever.

We also have relatives in the country, so long country drives are the norm. But when we go to visit we take my car a GT as its larger and has company funded fuel card. It would be good if under Flappy's concept we could share the driving as we did last month when she was on L's.

The reason that there is no restriction on L platers vehicles, is that effectively there 2 drivers watching the road.

As has been said there are so many anomalies in the current laws and was to pick and choose cars fast enough to cause distress in the wrong hands.

Then there is the evolution of aftermarket stroker cranks for for 6 cyls, 4.8 falcon 6's anyone? And whilst this is illegal under the legislation it would also be almost untraceable.

[FAS33]

So the question:

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Possibly the senior driver would have some minor qualification even something as low as 30 years plus 10 years of open license or whatever.

Maybe a blue or orange P plate shown when in ICUS.

What are the thoughts?[/quote]

yes......oh and um....hmmmm.....yes

[THE SLUG]

I think it's stupid that there is a 'banned' list for P platers cars. I mean my mums 3.0L VE could smoke both our V8 Land Rovers, our old VT SS and our V8 Fairmont. Although, I don't think 3 years is all that long to wait. I'm currently 5 months away from getting my P's, and as much as I would love an XR8 or an F6, I happy to drive my 2.4 diesel until I'm on my blacks, it's not all that long.