Holden workers to be asked to take a pay cut

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Cheese3

If you class my initial post as venomous I would hate to see your reaction when someone actually throws venomous words towards you. New age over sensitive world we are disgustingly becoming.

As I can see since you mentioned my job your trying to get the point across and spell it out for me word by word because I'm just a **** kicker tradie right? I'm not upset with what you wrote as I was just pointing out that you have no idea.

You agreed with what he wrote but then you throw in "if he is correct" stand up an pick a side instead of sitting on the fence scared. That's the problem with business and governments with decisions, yous are more worried about personal image and trying to please everybody so you sit on the fence but in reality you make more people angry by doing so.

Reality is everyone won't be happy.

I never agreed that the figures he wrote were correct and knowing what JD is like I said as much, the point I made was that if the figures he made were actually correct than that is a part of the problem. from what you say JD is up to his usual tactics and he was full of it.
I make no apology for my comments as they were well qualified and had you read it correctly you should have seen that I was referring to the figures quoted as the basis for the comments. that is not fence sitting it is simply responding to the comments made by JD .

[Gobes32]

The problem with the Button Plan is that it was never amended in over thirty years. It never allowed for currency fluctuations or a global financial crisis. In 1984 global trade was very different to what we experience now.

[csv8]

As a nurse, I work casual, its cheaper for the hospital as they don't pay , annual leave, sick leave, long service leave etc etc..I still get penalty rates, meal allowance , overtime..
They would add a substantial amount to my hourly rate....It would also apply to the car industry....

[csv8]

Some of the hourly workers who work at Ford include assembly line workers, who make a median $28.27 per hour; mechanics, who earn $15.30; maintenance electricians, who get $32.84; and tool and die makers, who receive $31.71. As for salaried employees, examples include service managers, who earn $42,180 per year; mechanical engineers, who get $84,964; manufacturing engineers, who make $80,000; and product development engineers, who are paid $74,008. All information is from the PayScale Report as of January 2011.
Experience

Experience counts at Ford, with more years on the job bringing greater salaries. For example, new employees earn a median $42,500 per year, though salaries go up to $48,909 by the fourth year. At five to nine years, they earn $66,576, and at 10 to 19 years, they make $83,286. Finally, with 20 or more years, workers get $92,268.
Certificates

Because certificates are documented proof of expertise practiced at industry standards, they can enhance salaries. The one with the highest compensation is a business certificate, which shows the ability to handle administrative and management skills. It pay $145,000. A Certified Professional Engineer turns scientific principles into automotive technology. His certification earns $100,000. Because computers are just as important to Ford as they are to any other organization, those with a Sun Certified Java Programmer credential earn $84,000.
State

The location of employment can determine pay, with the highest-paid Ford workers located in California, where they earn a median $101,000 per year. Jobs in Michigan, where many Ford plants are located, pay $86,789. In the South, Florida workers receive $45,912, while New Yorkers make $70,000. In the Midwest, those in Ohio get $67,193, while those in Illinois are paid $70,749.
http://www.ehow.com/info_7773470_ave...rs-salary.html

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

I was told labour accounts for 18%, so someone has their figures wrong. R&D and tooling costs make up half the cost of a car if worked out over the lifetime of a vehicle.

It is a tricky one to work out as it costs the same in labour to build a Territory Titanium as it does a commercial one tonner.

I suspect Ford would be running at much higher than 18% for labour costs. They stated 1250 jobs were going at Ford when production ceases. Using the $50 per hour rate for those workers mean 1250 (people) x $50 (per hour) x 38 (hours per week) = $2,375,000 per week. Which is going to equate to about $10 million per month. I think someone said Ford manufactures around $90 million (pre all taxes / charges etc) in cars a month at Broadmeadows, and if you accept 30% of the car (parts) is made off shore, then Australian input into Fords Vehicles manufacturing is about $90 million - 30% = $63 million.

If Ford labour is accounting for $10 million of the $63 million in production, and australian suppliers employed 3 workers for every Ford worker (and we do hear stories of how one car assembly job = 7 jobs in the supplier base), then your looking at approx $40 million dollars (ford $10 million, supplier base $30 million) in labour costs to make 60 to 70 million dollars in production. Well north of 50%.

There are car plants in the world that pump out 400,000 plus cars a year (13 times more than Fords Ozs production), with 3000 - 4000 workers (2.5 - 3.5 times Ford Ozs workforce). Thats where you get your labour costs down to around 15%.

[Joe5619]

delete

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by csv8

Some of the hourly workers who work at Ford include assembly line workers, who make a median $28.27 per hour; mechanics, who earn $15.30; maintenance electricians, who get $32.84; and tool and die makers, who receive $31.71. As for salaried employees, examples include service managers, who earn $42,180 per year; mechanical engineers, who get $84,964; manufacturing engineers, who make $80,000; and product development engineers, who are paid $74,008. All information is from the PayScale Report as of January 2011.
Experience

Experience counts at Ford, with more years on the job bringing greater salaries. For example, new employees earn a median $42,500 per year, though salaries go up to $48,909 by the fourth year. At five to nine years, they earn $66,576, and at 10 to 19 years, they make $83,286. Finally, with 20 or more years, workers get $92,268.
Certificates

Because certificates are documented proof of expertise practiced at industry standards, they can enhance salaries. The one with the highest compensation is a business certificate, which shows the ability to handle administrative and management skills. It pay $145,000. A Certified Professional Engineer turns scientific principles into automotive technology. His certification earns $100,000. Because computers are just as important to Ford as they are to any other organization, those with a Sun Certified Java Programmer credential earn $84,000.
State

The location of employment can determine pay, with the highest-paid Ford workers located in California, where they earn a median $101,000 per year. Jobs in Michigan, where many Ford plants are located, pay $86,789. In the South, Florida workers receive $45,912, while New Yorkers make $70,000. In the Midwest, those in Ohio get $67,193, while those in Illinois are paid $70,749.
http://www.ehow.com/info_7773470_ave...rs-salary.html

all of those salaries are possible selling KEBABS . what about the people at the top earning 30 mill . that seems to be ok .

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by csv8

Some of the hourly workers who work at Ford include assembly line workers, who make a median $28.27 per hour; mechanics, who earn $15.30; maintenance electricians, who get $32.84; and tool and die makers, who receive $31.71. As for salaried employees, examples include service managers, who earn $42,180 per year; mechanical engineers, who get $84,964; manufacturing engineers, who make $80,000; and product development engineers, who are paid $74,008. All information is from the PayScale Report as of January 2011.

No wonder mechanics are always complain about their wages if those figures are correct.

Makes you wonder why they would even bother to do the trade for that sort of money.

We have a 2nd year apprentice at work earning more than that.

[jpd80]

Even at $50/hour cost x 1250 workers x 8 hours, that equals $500,000 per day.
spread across 148 vehicles a day that's $3,378 per vehicle.

Generally, supplier prices include labour to make parts but as w know, a lot of those parts
now come from outside Australia through Ford Asia pacific supplier network and suppliers
still here in Australia are told to match foreign prices of lose contracts. So the cost of local
parts is mostly on par with what can be sourced overseas, probably why locals are slowly going broke..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

all of those salaries are possible selling KEBABS . what about the people at the top earning 30 mill . that seems to be ok .

Unfortunately, Ford is not a democracy and those earning big bikkies at the top answer only to The Ford family and Board who control Ford.
The very good management at the top of Ford is the very reason Ford still exists today and avoided bankruptcy when its two Detroit
competitors both went broke and were bailed out by US taxpayers.

Mulally and his team are worth every cent.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Unfortunately, Ford is not a democracy and those earning big bikkies at the top answer only to The Ford family and Board who control Ford.
The very good management at the top of Ford is the very reason Ford still exists today and avoided bankruptcy when its two Detroit
competitors both went broke and were bailed out by US taxpayers.

Mulally and his team are worth every cent.

perhaps they are , but i believe the employees are too , the difference is it's the employees who get brought up as being too expensive ,and often by those at the very top , 2ndly right wing dreamer elitists in hire and fire type jobs where you sell your a s s doing 50 hrs + per week and get to wear a suit and tie for 50k , often back them up . LOL . I'M SORRY TO SAY .

[Bossxr8]

A lot of the pay problems stem from having way too many high salary managers who mostly do 2 fifths of f all. Ford is very bad for this, we only have a fraction of the workers we did 10 years ago but still only a slightly reduced number of managers, way more than is needed for the numbers of floor workers.

It's just hard to comprehend why so many managers are needed when there is hardly anyone left on the floor.

If Holden were serious then surely the blokes on 6 figure salaries should be taking the pay cuts, and not the blokes slugging it out for half the pay. Sickening how the rich stay rich and its the poorer ones who are the ones that cop it.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by csv8

Some of the hourly workers who work at Ford include assembly line workers, who make a median $28.27 per hour; mechanics, who earn $15.30; maintenance electricians, who get $32.84; and tool and die makers, who receive $31.71. As for salaried employees, examples include service managers, who earn $42,180 per year; mechanical engineers, who get $84,964; manufacturing engineers, who make $80,000; and product development engineers, who are paid $74,008. All information is from the PayScale Report as of January 2011.
Experience

Experience counts at Ford, with more years on the job bringing greater salaries. For example, new employees earn a median $42,500 per year, though salaries go up to $48,909 by the fourth year. At five to nine years, they earn $66,576, and at 10 to 19 years, they make $83,286. Finally, with 20 or more years, workers get $92,268.
Certificates

Because certificates are documented proof of expertise practiced at industry standards, they can enhance salaries. The one with the highest compensation is a business certificate, which shows the ability to handle administrative and management skills. It pay $145,000. A Certified Professional Engineer turns scientific principles into automotive technology. His certification earns $100,000. Because computers are just as important to Ford as they are to any other organization, those with a Sun Certified Java Programmer credential earn $84,000.
State

The location of employment can determine pay, with the highest-paid Ford workers located in California, where they earn a median $101,000 per year. Jobs in Michigan, where many Ford plants are located, pay $86,789. In the South, Florida workers receive $45,912, while New Yorkers make $70,000. In the Midwest, those in Ohio get $67,193, while those in Illinois are paid $70,749.
http://www.ehow.com/info_7773470_ave...rs-salary.html

Are those figures for Ford US, because they are completely wrong for FoA. You don't go up the pay scale here as you get more years of experience, and mechanics make the same as all other tradesmen do, for starters.

[mik]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

The button plan workers pay the guvment the only ones who ruined these industry and the car buyers they choose what they wanted the rest die simple really

Be good if it was so simple, but the fact is govco did everything to make business very profitable for importers and an absolute nightmare for local manufacturing.

[fte50]

Well reading through these posts theres a touch of truth, crap and unknown.

Dont know if any of you know of this but its interesting for anyone in auto manufacturing .... and not.note at the very end are provided links to both Holden & Fords past & current EBAs so read the facts and not the crap put out by some journalist.

The Automotive industry: Workplace relations impediments to its survival 2012
click here http://ipa.org.au/library/publicatio...auto_paper.pdf

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by fte50

Well reading through these posts theres a touch of truth, crap and unknown.

Dont know if any of you know of this but its interesting for anyone in auto manufacturing .... and not.note at the very end are provided links to both Holden & Fords past & current EBAs so read the facts and not the crap put out by some journalist.

The Automotive industry: Workplace relations impediments to its survival 2012
click here http://ipa.org.au/library/publicatio...auto_paper.pdf

that is a big whinge fest about how eba conditions are not allowing companies to lower thier costs by lowering workers conditions . lowering wokers australian pay will not lower the price of groceries or petrol . once again it is the very greed of a wealthy whinger . one might want to look at how govt support have gone against the industry and favoured lower prices from third world traders over the past 2 decades , so who was mostly in govt since the mid 90's . wouldnt be people who support cheaper labor and bigger profits by any chance woud it , wouldnt have anything to do with free enterprise for corperations and individuals now would it . it is pretty much too late to go back now . where are the sources of income now coming from , shares and office duties , and beauracratic type 2 fifths of f all type work where nothing is actually done stuff . would that not be where we are heading , where our govts have supported at the expense of everything else over a quick buck for whoever can get it and run .

once again i cannot believe what i read about how the poor old workers are screwing all the big boys in town forcing them to close down . what a crock .

[fte50]

Agreed to a big extent, and its also about fair balance. Given the whole scope ie skill level, manufacturing expertise, political / union stability, govt. assistance, local recources etc it is viable for manufacturers to invest locally.

Multinational shareholders see a different thing though ...greed and lots of it.

Once the 'current new players' reach our standard of living, manufacturers will then abandon them in the quest for the next cheapest alternative.

The main reason for my post was more so to show people the real EBAs of our auto companies and not rely on some narrow minded journalists claims.

[Kieron]

I don't believe deveraux said the workers are screwing Holden. A company struggling to survive will typically investigate multiple avenues to save costs and in a labour intensive industry such as car manufacture, naturally they are going to target this area.

I don't see why people have a problem with this write up if it is indeed true. Fact is, Holden make a loss here, is it sound business practice to continue operating at a loss? No, of course not and if you were a shareholder in that company, you'd be wanting change.

[mik]

I would hate to be a motor Industry employer in Australia, there are way to many perks for empoyees, add to that the general cost of running a business, add to that FTA constraints it is no wonder they are leaving Australia like rats deserting a sinking ship.

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

A lot of the pay problems stem from having way too many high salary managers who mostly do 2 fifths of f all. Ford is very bad for this, we only have a fraction of the workers we did 10 years ago but still only a slightly reduced number of managers, way more than is needed for the numbers of floor workers.

It's just hard to comprehend why so many managers are needed when there is hardly anyone left on the floor.

If Holden were serious then surely the blokes on 6 figure salaries should be taking the pay cuts, and not the blokes slugging it out for half the pay. Sickening how the rich stay rich and its the poorer ones who are the ones that cop it.

Unfortunetly this happens in every industry right across the board. It's even
worse if you for a multi national company.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

perhaps they are , but i believe the employees are too , the difference is it's the employees who get brought up as being too expensive ,and often by those at the very top , 2ndly right wing dreamer elitists in hire and fire type jobs where you sell your a s s doing 50 hrs + per week and get to wear a suit and tie for 50k , often back them up . LOL . I'M SORRY TO SAY .

What most people miss is the fact at very senior management are paid according to results
in as much as their salary is made up of a healthy portion of stock options that can only be exercised
if the stock exceeds a preset threshold.

But we're getting further away from the topic and if you want to blame anyone for Ford's
current predicament, blame consumers who refuse to pay prices higher than 20 years ago

[mik]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

A lot of the pay problems stem from having way too many high salary managers who mostly do 2 fifths of f all. Ford is very bad for this, we only have a fraction of the workers we did 10 years ago but still only a slightly reduced number of managers, way more than is needed for the numbers of floor workers.

It's just hard to comprehend why so many managers are needed when there is hardly anyone left on the floor.

If Holden were serious then surely the blokes on 6 figure salaries should be taking the pay cuts, and not the blokes slugging it out for half the pay. Sickening how the rich stay rich and its the poorer ones who are the ones that cop it.

There is an old saying for that....too many chiefs....not enough indians !

[UberKnee]

Well Holden/GM do have to try and sell these cars in America for half the price.

[mik]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What most people miss is the fact at very senior management are paid according to results
in as much as their salary is made up of a healthy portion of stock options that can only be exercised
if the stock exceeds a preset threshold.

But we're getting further away from the topic and if you want to blame anyone for Ford's
current predicament, blame consumers who refuse to pay prices higher than 20 years ago

i reckon a lot of that is due to populus having less disposable income, people are being more careful with their $$$$, especially with the uncertainty with the economy , not to mention the instability with the federales and costs rising daily.
reading those documents to me they really could trim some of the fat perks that employers pay for workers that really would make little difference to them, accumulative sick pay, bereavement pay, paid time off for union reps to to go for training.
years ago there was mention of user pays in many area's, it seems to me there is an awful lot of stuff that gets paid for by the employer that they really should not be paying, i could think of quite a few other things in day to day life that many take for granted that many pay for but only the minority benefit from.
you could probably get away with it in prosperity of years past, but it is catching up with us.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mik

accumulative sick pay

I see this as an incentive to not throw sickies as I'm being rewarded by them accumulating and can use more than the X amount of days I'm entitled to a year if I've got them saved up and I'm sick enough to justify it.

What you'll find is that if you don't accumulate them, people will throw sickies to use them up before they renew the next year, there is no incentive to keep them accumulating if you have left over ones at the end which wont carry over.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

No doubt Button started the trend. But tell me this (keep in mind i dont bat for either party), what has either the Labour or Liberal govts done since the induction of the Button plan to arrest the issue? Sweet FA.

Couple of Billion borrowed dollars...

Originally Posted by Cheese3

As it's about Holden playing handball with the government and workers

Asking for a Billion more?

[XR Craig]

It was in the news today that Holden won't make there redundancy target. Could be more than a pat cut comming.

[fte50]

GMs agenda here is to try and reduce its costs by asking its workers for a cut but ultimately collecting another handout from scared govts knowing a fall of two majors in a short time frame will have catastrophic social and economic effects.
The second is the 'slow conditioning of the nation', before they too say bye bye -times are tough and Holden is struggling to remain viable etc.

They are playing on Fords departure and using the timing/circumstances to their full advantage.

[buggerlugs]

Not only Holden workers..................................
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/west...-1226664366638

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I see this as an incentive to not throw sickies as I'm being rewarded by them accumulating and can use more than the X amount of days I'm entitled to a year if I've got them saved up and I'm sick enough to justify it.

What you'll find is that if you don't accumulate them, people will throw sickies to use them up before they renew the next year, there is no incentive to keep them accumulating if you have left over ones at the end which wont carry over.

But those accumulated sickies actually cost more at future pay rates.
A business is better off paying sickies NOW, at todays pay rate, not at a rate in maybe 6 years time when you think you may use them.
It is just a perk the worker gets, just as higher management have their perks.