Random Police checks "not lawful"

[redxm]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Jeez there are some paranoid people around. It is as if police generally have nothing better to do then pull people over.

They get paid regardless so why would they bother unless they had the slightest doubt . Serious things can and do come of rather trivial stops.

Exactly. 18 months ago a policeman pulled over a car for RBT. He is now buried 20 metres from my wife's grandmother.

[ozpacman]

Oh dear, those naughty coppers. None of them seem to have a clue what they're doing. I wonder sometimes how they even manage to find their way to work - let alone catch anyone!

To those who consistently scrutinize and strive to find fault with every action undertaken by police - if you think you can do better, then please visit: www.policerecruit.com.au

We're always looking for good people!

Russ

[Trump]

This is why I have been calling for a complete overhaul and reconstruction of the palaver that passes itself off as the legal system. When the so-called laws are open to interpretation due to ambiguous language, those in power will (and have) get away with anything.

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by ozpacman

Oh dear, those naughty coppers. None of them seem to have a clue what they're doing. I wonder sometimes how they even manage to find their way to work - let alone catch anyone!

To those who consistently scrutinize and strive to find fault with every action undertaken by police - if you think you can do better, then please visit: www.policerecruit.com.au

We're always looking for good people!

Russ

Are you saying that Victoria Police were wrong in their settlement of the "Operation Molto" Federal Court case?

[STINKY NINJA]

If youve got nothing to hide and dont assault police then you will go free... or make a big fuss,song and dance and cause trouble,have a cry about it,most likely you will come to grief.
Ive only ever been pulled over if im doing something wrong or for a rbt,2 minutes out of your life being tested to keep idiots off the roads who may potentially kill your family in an accident.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by IDT

Why on earth would you want to be a cop?
The whole principal of protecting the public has gone out the window as has the respect for those who are entrusted to do just that....
Political correctness has screwed this country.......

Dunno about your home state of Perth...

But here in Victoria traffic cops are not out to catch the crook who broke into your house and stole your TV...the traffic cops in Vic are simply tax collectors, they do not pursue criminals, they don't have qualifications to "fight crime". It's a whole different department that does traffic only here.

About the closest traffic get to apprehending actual criminals is a drunk drivers conviction.

It's however always the traffic cops that give police a bad name....not the foot patrol or divvy van mob.

(There are of course exceptions, as I found out recently.)

Highest proportion of cowboys is in Traffic operations...and the least educated as well....year 11 minimum for a traffic cop.
The poor buggers get quotas they must meet to justify their head count etc...and imagine sitting in a car all day like a taxi driver.

Pretty aweful job...no wonder they have attitude.

[RHR]

So your telling me that if a hwy cop does a check and the owner is wanted for a serious matter the hwy cop will turn a blind eye.

Please

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

The magistrate was ruling on evidence before him but could that opinion be overturned on appeal?

I'm thinking that a full review may expose errors in law but probably killing a forrest with the paperwork attached.

I can't see the police, safety groups or the government allowing random police roadside checks to be made illegal.

[KIWI-1]

The DPP is considering appealing.

The case was nothing to do with driving, it was about racial profiling.

"In this case, Magnus Kaba (the accused) was a passenger in a motor vehicle stopped by police in a “routine intercept”. Both Magnas and the driver of this vehicle were young African males. There seemed to be no apparent reason to conduct a “routine intercept” on this vehicle."
...
The case has significant implications in all situations where the police arbitrarily stop a person and is relevant to the current Victoria Police Public Inquiry into field contacts."

http://www.communitylaw.org.au/flemingtonkensington/cb_pages/NewsEvents.php

[Trump]

Safety groups (think Harold Scruby) are a blight on society. Their PC ways and "we know whats best" attitude are decimating the idea of a free society.

[XR6T0Y]

People are seriously so close minded. Highway Patrol deal with TRAFFIC AND HIGHWAY. They don't go out to do drug raids etc. They are a separate 'corps'. Just like General Duties do the "door knocking" and not Highway. For **** sake people, build a bridge. I would love to see the ones that complain about cops, do their job for a week. To see and deal with what they need to...

[RHR]

Correct hwy and traffic is their core business however they still wear the same badge on their shoulders. They have the same powers as general duty cops.

So again if say the piece of crap that took Jill meghers life walked by you say that hwy wouldn't do anything. Come on!!

[KIWI-1]

I can see this one lasting...

[XR6T0Y]

Originally Posted by RHR

Correct hwy and traffic is their core business however they still wear the same badge on their shoulders. They have the same powers as general duty cops.

So again if say the piece of crap that took Jill meghers life walked by you say that hwy wouldn't do anything. Come on!!

Did I say that? People sit on here saying that they don't catch the "real Crims". That's because they are not tasked to do so. They have a separate division for that. To answer your question, of course they would do something, that's common sense and a ****** question to ask as well

[FGII-XR6]

when I was last in Victoria I was pulled over for a random licence check but that was fine after all I am not african, does this mean they won't be able to check Africans because it is racial profiling but they can check Caucasians?

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The DPP is considering appealing.

The case was nothing to do with driving, it was about racial profiling.

"In this case, Magnus Kaba (the accused) was a passenger in a motor vehicle stopped by police in a “routine intercept”. Both Magnas and the driver of this vehicle were young African males. There seemed to be no apparent reason to conduct a “routine intercept” on this vehicle."
...
The case has significant implications in all situations where the police arbitrarily stop a person and is relevant to the current Victoria Police Public Inquiry into field contacts."

http://www.communitylaw.org.au/flemingtonkensington/cb_pages/NewsEvents.php

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

The DPP is considering appealing.

The case was nothing to do with driving, it was about racial profiling.

"In this case, Magnus Kaba (the accused) was a passenger in a motor vehicle stopped by police in a “routine intercept”. Both Magnas and the driver of this vehicle were young African males. There seemed to be no apparent reason to conduct a “routine intercept” on this vehicle."
...
The case has significant implications in all situations where the police arbitrarily stop a person and is relevant to the current Victoria Police Public Inquiry into field contacts."

http://www.communitylaw.org.au/flemingtonkensington/cb_pages/NewsEvents.php

I'm a white male and I've been pulled over for RBTs/routine intercepts. Is that profiling as well like the DPP is carrying on about or just the polic doing their jobs and randomly pulling cars over.

[danzvtil]

This crap makes me angry. In order to do their jobs police need to have some AUTHORITY! When this ability is stripped away then there is only anarchy.
While im not african or middle eastern, so i cant say ive been targeted, the few times i have been pulled up, a simple "how are you today, officer" goes a long way to having you back on the road real quick.

[KIWI-1]

Therein lies the reason for the court case.
"I was last in Victoria I was pulled over for a random licence check"
Were your passengers submitted to a licence check?

[Cuyper]

This could have saved me being pulled over 5 times a day every day while on P plates, I'm still not over the trauma and that was 25 years ago

[FGII-XR6]

nowhere did it say the passenger was asked for his licence ( I re read it 3 times) . but there are situations where this may be appropriate. I have seen on the "highway patrol" TV show ( real fly on the wall policing not drama) where the police has pulled over a motorist and his moron mate has abused police questioning his authority and generally being an idiot. offensive language was used and therefore the police are quite justified to ask the passenger for his licence or other ID . unfortunately the loony left delight in challenging police authority and call police racist simply because a non Caucasian was the subject of police scrutiny. in doing so the loony left are themselves racist

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Therein lies the reason for the court case.
"I was last in Victoria I was pulled over for a random licence check"
Were your passengers submitted to a licence check?

[jaydee]

"One of the problems with arbitrary stops is that they can be used by police to stop people on the basis of discriminatory grounds rather than after they have formed a reasonable basis to believe that the driver may have committed an offence," she said.

"Many people from African backgrounds, for example, have reported that they have been subject to routine intercepts by police where there is no underlying basis for the stop."

And the Middle Easterns/Lebanese reckon they get targeted, and guys in modified rice burners reckon so too, as do aboriginals, Asians, taxi drivers,guys on Harleys, Jap bikes, bikies and any other minority you can think of.
Hey, but go ahead and pull over as many anglo saxon, Christian aussies in a family car as you like, they can't complain.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. They probably do pull over a few Africans, because if it's like here in Perth a good majority of them don't have a license, so if they crash into you you're stuffed trying to get any insurance out of them.

[KIWI-1]

The court transcript says:
"In the early afternoon of 19th April 2012, Randall and Andrews were in a police vehicle in the Moonee Valley area tasked with undertaking what were described as routine or random intercepts of motor vehicles. The vehicles were stopped primarily in order to check the drivers' licences and vehicles' registrations and, as stated by Randall, whether a driver or passenger is the subject of outstanding warrants."

Re Operation Molto:
Jeremy Rapke QC, Victoria's director of public prosecutions at the time of the secret police operation, represented the young men in the Federal Court case.
He says Operation Molto was clearly a case of police racial profiling.
"They were nominated in the operation order as being the people most likely to be involved in the crime, primarily involved in the crime, and indeed statements made by people who were involved in the operation - statements of witnesses - confirm that that was the primary focus of the operation," he said.
"In fact, the police data which was available to us in this case, which was for a four or five-year period, clearly established the existence of racial profiling as a law enforcement practice in the Flemington/North Melbourne area at the relevant time.
"It's racism, because what you are doing is you are targeting an individual based on his race rather than based upon any other legitimate policing criteria.
"What you are doing is you are making assumptions about an individual based on your assumptions about the racial group to which he belongs. Not only is that racism, but it is highly ineffective policing."
Mr Rapke also says it was ill-informed.
"We looked at the crime statistics, and [the African-Australians] were committing significantly less crime than any other ethnic group in the area," he said.
"And... an offender from any other ethnic group was eight-and-a-half times less likely to be stopped [by police] than would an offender from a non-African group."

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by flappist

There are some interesting comments here.

A Magistrate finds it illegal.
Thats ok, Police will find a way around it.

WHAT??

The sworn duty of a Police Officer in Australia is to uphold the law NOT manipulate the law to suit themselves.

C'mon Flappist... You've been around a long time, you're an educated bloke.

There is one problem with the police upholding the law and being to the letter at the same time, the crim never has to play by the rules... Our freedoms aside. If the police ask for my licence, i provide... If i don't, i could expect that they'd assume i am hiding something. On suspicion, i'd expect them to search me...

Police will perform an RBT (legal), they will then ask for the drivers licence (legal), if that person fails to comply, then the police will have reasonable grounds to suspect that this person may be hiding something. If the person does give up their details, the police will thank them, breath test them and have them on their way... UNLESS, they then suspect something further... Eg; notice a bong, or something else... OR perhaps, a warrant for the person's arrest is recorded...

Crims don't need to identify themselves before using a firearm, nor do they need to caution anyone before using force or anything else... I think criminals get it pretty good, surely you'd agree?

One thing we both agree on is the use of speed cameras (we both dislike them), but that's not really a police issue (in the grand scheme of things). To me, anything that helps the cops pull in the scum and make an arrest for drug dealers, and violent criminals, the better.

We can't rely on the courts to protect us, or the parole board... They let all kinds of murderers and rapists free (as proven recently)... I'd prefer to see those people as the "target" for police than a speeding flappist doing 7km/h over the limit...

[ChRiDDa]

More than one way to skin a cat....
Random license check and breath test would be one...
Vehicle safety inspection another

The ruling made in the magistrates court will no doubt get over turned in the higher courts, mark my words...

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by zilo

Dunno about your home state of Perth...

But here in Victoria traffic cops are not out to catch the crook who broke into your house and stole your TV...the traffic cops in Vic are simply tax collectors, they do not pursue criminals, they don't have qualifications to "fight crime". It's a whole different department that does traffic only here.

About the closest traffic get to apprehending actual criminals is a drunk drivers conviction.

It's however always the traffic cops that give police a bad name....not the foot patrol or divvy van mob.

(There are of course exceptions, as I found out recently.)

Highest proportion of cowboys is in Traffic operations...and the least educated as well....year 11 minimum for a traffic cop.
The poor buggers get quotas they must meet to justify their head count etc...and imagine sitting in a car all day like a taxi driver.

Pretty aweful job...no wonder they have attitude.

Have experienced the incompetence and attitude of VicPol firsthand. I was assaulted twice by the same person. First time I just let it go as I thought the cops would do diddly squat. Second time around I reported it to the police, as this mentally sick individual was now making unwarranted threats against my family and had held me hostage the first time around to reveal my home address. And I learnt the painful lesson that VicPol do infact do diddly squat. At the police station, the lady who did the paperwork for me rolled her eyes as she opened the door to let me into the police compound. This lady was either overworked and underpaid or clearly didn't want to be a police officer. I presented concrete evidence that this individual was a real threat and was possibly mentally ill or on drugs. Recorded phone threats and an X-ray of broken ribs from the assault. This individual was also known to police, with probations for assault after I made some enquiries to VicPol HQ. Long story short, it took police 3 long days to get anything done, the lady in charge of my case was sent out on traffic duties even after she had made an appointment for me, and it was a total waste of my time while this deranged individual was allowed to roam free and continued to be a threat. He was arrested 4 days after report was filed and even then he was granted bail and allowed to go free. I had to make arrangements for myself to be on 24 hour guard at my parent's house, and ready to use deadly force if necessary. All this because the local PD had only one divvy van for 5 suburbs, and apparently other people were also facing death threats so why should I receive special treatment? Very confidence inspiring that the police themselves admit they are understaffed and can't help, and yet they have enough time to go out doing 'traffic duties' (radar speed traps, rbt, pulling over hoons, etc). So 6 months on, what has happened? I relocated my entire family interstate because I no longer had any confidence in VicPol or felt safe in Victoria. I had to fly in at my own expense and waste an entire day fronting the Magistrates Court to lodge the restraining order against him, otherwise the police would simply drop all charges against him. And meanwhile, deranged old mate is still walking free and I have not heard anything of my case, and I no longer have the drive or patience to front VicPol or talk to them again.

[csv8]

This another example why Australians need a Bill of Rights.
http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/bill.../australia.php

[BHDOGS]

I do security and I profile people all the time if your dress like A gangster and walk around strutting ull get more attention then wearing a business suit walking normally it's what humans do you can legislate the crap out of it but it's human nature to judge people on appearance is it fair no but it's life and most scumbags dress or act like the stereotypes for
A reason anyway time to man up and move on

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by csv8

This another example why Australians need a Bill of Rights.
http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/bill.../australia.php

there was a referendum held on this the public had their say get over it. As per site T&C stop using the forum to push your political agenda

[csv8]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

there was a referendum held on this the public had their say get over it. As per site T&C stop using the forum to push your political agenda

I am NOT pushing my/any political agenda. I was just making a comment on this is why Australians need a Bill of Rights.

[FGII-XR6]

sorry I must have been wrong, how silly of me to see the mention of a political matter (that is often brought up by small left wing activist groups) in this context as pushing a political agenda .
I see now that there was no political intention on your part and you saw this as a benign non political comment.
as usual you are right and shouldn't be challenged

Originally Posted by csv8

I am NOT pushing my/any political agenda. I was just making a comment on this is why Australians need a Bill of Rights.