New QLD Road Rules

[new2ford]

The lady on Tom Tom GPS (for those of you who don't have it) really indicates the difference between Australian authorities' thinking on roundabouts and the European way (the way it should be).

She doesn't say "turn right at the roundabout" because that would be rather confusing to many. She says "at the roundabout use the third [or whatever] exit".

That's the point Streets was making, because a roundabout is not a conventional intersection. It's a circular "main" road with side streets off it. It doesn't matter if those side streets are the Princes Highway or a cul-de-sac, they all have equal subordinate status to a roundabout. Unfortunately the authorities here have encouraged people to think that if they're going along the Princes Highway ("straight ahead") they can go through the roundabout like Captain Thunderbolt and none of the other streets have any rights in the equation.

A good traffic management concept comprehensively stuffed by dumb public servants.

[Silver Ghia]

Here is the wording of the rules at roundabouts in Victoria ("Driving In Victoria, Rules and Responsibilities" on the Vicroads website):

Turning left
Approach in the left lane and stay in that lane.
Signal a left turn on your approach to the roundabout and keep the signal on until you have left the roundabout.

Going straight ahead
Approach the roundabout in the left or right lane.
Drive in the same lane through the roundabout.
Do not signal on your approach to the roundabout, but if practicable, signal left as you exit.

Turning right
Always approach the roundabout in the right lane.
Drive close to the centre of the roundabout and follow the right lane as you leave.
Signal a right turn on your approach, and signal left, if practicable, just before the exit you are turning into, keeping the signal on until you have left the roundabout.

I tend to disregard indicators on other vehicles in the roundabout completely, as some drivers have different interpretations of how to indicate.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you find you need to change lanes on a multi lane round about, then perhaps you should pay better attention and make sure you are in the correct lane on approach to the round about.

Don't tell me how to drive matey. You'd be in the outside lane of a multilane roundabout if you're not using the first couple of exits after which you change to the nearside lane to use the next exit.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by prydey

get over yourself matey. you, and every other person reading this thread knows exactly what is meant by 'straight through' and 'turn right'!! its all just a silly little game of semantics that you like to play, and let everyone know that you've been to europe.

if you can't work out that having your right indicator on can aid in the flow of traffic, esp when busy, then you need some help.

if you find you need to change lanes on a multi lane round about, then perhaps you should pay better attention and make sure you are in the correct lane on approach to the round about.

this thread is amusing still.

There are a number of roundabouts here in Vic that dont have exits straight ahead, or to the right. They have exits for example at 10 o'clock, 1 o'clock and 4 o'clock, so you cannot apply the published rules for indicating at these roundabouts.

In the UK these multi-exit roundabouts are much more prevalent, so you must indicate left when exiting.

And I suggest if you do happen to drive in the UK at some time Prydey, if you dont indicate left when exiting, and be in the left lane when you do exit, you will be blasted from behind with a loud horn.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by new2ford

The lady on Tom Tom GPS (for those of you who don't have it) really indicates the difference between Australian authorities' thinking on roundabouts and the European way (the way it should be).

She doesn't say "turn right at the roundabout" because that would be rather confusing to many. She says "at the roundabout use the third [or whatever] exit".

That's the point Streets was making, because a roundabout is not a conventional intersection. It's a circular "main" road with side streets off it. It doesn't matter if those side streets are the Princes Highway or a cul-de-sac, they all have equal subordinate status to a roundabout. Unfortunately the authorities here have encouraged people to think that if they're going along the Princes Highway ("straight ahead") they can go through the roundabout like Captain Thunderbolt and none of the other streets have any rights in the equation.

A good traffic management concept comprehensively stuffed by dumb public servants.

True.

And here in Vic at some of the busiest roundabouts that dont conform with the silly rules as they are worded, the dumb public servants have put in traffic lights.

For example the large roundabout at the top of Elizabeth St in Melbourne where the large flagpole is, they have really stuffed up the traffic flow by putting in lights, as drivers didn't know how to cope with that roundabout, because of the stupid roundabout rules that exist.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

There are a number of roundabouts here in Vic that dont have exits straight ahead, or to the right. They have exits for example at 10 o'clock, 1 o'clock and 4 o'clock, so you cannot apply the published rules for indicating at these roundabouts.

In the UK these multi-exit roundabouts are much more prevalent, so you must indicate left when exiting.

And I suggest if you do happen to drive in the UK at some time Prydey, if you dont indicate left when exiting, and be in the left lane when you do exit, you will be blasted from behind with a loud horn.

i think you mis understood what i was getting at. i'm not questioning the rules or how people drive. i'm just having a go at the semantics of those being a little pedantic with the terminology. technically, it may be wrong, but everyone knows what is being meant.

yes, there are many roundabouts that aren't the traditional 4 roads, and i don't think anyone would direct you 'straight ahead' on those types.

as for multi lane round abouts, there is no standard rule. many will have a big sign prior signalling which lanes can go where. some, the left lane must exit at the first exit, therefore it is possible to exit at the first exit from the right lane also.

as for my driving, i always indicate my intentions to those waiting to enter the round about. its just common courtesy. i will signal right (even though i don't have to in europe) if going further than the 2nd exit, and signal left when exiting. i don't think i'm going to wear out the bulb or indicator stalk with all the unnecessary right signalling.

[hedgehobb]

My personal "where practicable" for driving in Australia and roundabouts.

Everyone is a moron.

Don't trust anyone.

Indicators are false at all times.

Non-use of indicators shows how awesome of a driver I am.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by prydey

i will signal right (even though i don't have to in europe) if going further than the 2nd exit, and signal left when exiting. i don't think i'm going to wear out the bulb or indicator stalk with all the unnecessary right signalling.

I'll give you an olive branch matey. I don't think there's a great problem with signalling right as a courtesy to indicate that you're continuing round the roundabout (regardless of whether 600 million Europeans think it's unnecessary!), but you'd logically be using it past the first exit all the way round to the exit you came in, if you were reversing your journey - common in NSW traffic planning to access properties and side streets that you cannot safely access in the forward direction. It's wrong though to describe it as a "turning right" indication.

The main problem is your indicator stalk - you have to flick to left-indicator to exit which is a cumbersome two-position movement on a small roundabout. But left indication is essential, as Silver Ghia pointed out.

As for your "everybody knows what is meant by...", my observation is that they don't. Roundabout driving and signalling in Australia is all over the shop. The best position to take is defensive driving, thus:

Originally Posted by hedgehobb

My personal "where practicable" for driving in Australia and roundabouts.

Everyone is a moron.

Don't trust anyone.

Indicators are false at all times.

Non-use of indicators shows how awesome a driver I am.

To which I'd add, sit back and let the roundabout chargers through, even though you have right of way. A few minutes wait is better than being in a morgue.

The whole thing's a mess in Australia, aided and abetted by officialdom.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by new2ford

It's wrong though to describe it as a "turning right" indication.

well, my 'indicators' are on the 'right' and 'left' sides of my car. when one is flashing, it indicates to other road users that i am intending to travel in that direction.

Originally Posted by new2ford

The main problem is your indicator stalk - you have to flick to left-indicator to exit which is a cumbersome two-position movement on a small roundabout. But left indication is essential, as Silver Ghia pointed out.

its not really. you have 2 hands. both 'should' be on the wheel. the stalks are easily accessible with fingers on pretty much all cars. sometimes there isn't enough time for people to indicate as they are travelling too fast through.

Originally Posted by new2ford

As for your "everybody knows what is meant by...", my observation is that they don't. Roundabout driving and signalling in Australia is all over the shop.

your observations don't mean that people don't know what is meant. it is just that many drivers are lazy or just don't care. govco has created a culture of speedo watching, so all other procedures come a very distant 2nd.


more accidents tend to happen at intersections than roundabouts. perhaps the confusion is with the massive big red, orange and green lights on a stick, rather than a circular mound of dirt in the middle of the road.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by prydey

well, my 'indicators' are on the 'right' and 'left' sides of my car. when one is flashing, it indicates to other road users that i am intending to travel in that direction.

Yes, but you're not "turning right", which is the language of the road rules. What you're doing is analogous to driving along a road and you come to a bend to the right in that road and you use the indicator to show that you are going round that bend, something that's really not necessary. You normally only use indicators at an intersection, turning into another road. When you leave a roundabout at any point you're actually "turning left".

May be semantics yes, but the language used in road rules here produces total misunderstanding of the nature of this traffic control device.

The road rule for roundabouts in the European country I was living in last (and typical across Europe) is a simple two-liner that saves a lot of paper:

1. when entering, give way to traffic already in the roundabout
2. indicate only when exiting [i.e. left-indicate for Australia] or when changing lanes within the roundabout

What you're implying is that we have a third rule in Australia:

3. indicate right when driving around the roundabout after the first exit until you come to your exit (when you indicate left)

Seems quite reasonable to me. Makes all parties happy and it expresses the intent of the rules without all the complicated and misleading language and diagrams.

Just remember not to use rule 3 when driving in Europe or you could be in trouble!

Originally Posted by prydey

your observations don't mean that people don't know what is meant. it is just that many drivers are lazy or just don't care. govco has created a culture of speedo watching, so all other procedures come a very distant 2nd.

I'd agree with that.

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by superfly

What is new for me is that when going straight ahead, I now have to signal left as I turn off the roundabout. AFAIK this wasn't a requirement previously. All the other rules I was already following.

I've always known it was a requirement, I got my licence in 2002.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I find those complaining about roundabouts ridiculous. I see it this way... treat a roundabout the same as a intersection, just with a stupidly big landscaped or concrete circle in it.

Yes...which is why you should indicate right when turning right on a roundabout. It's just stupid to not indicate as you go around a roundabout until you are leaving it. How many close calls have people here had with a car that they see entering the roundabout opposite them, you assume they're going straight ahead as they're not indicating so you start to enter the roundabout, and then they suddenly turn right straight towards you without indicating?

Get rid of the damn things...they certainly don't make traffic flow any better than they did with lights or a set of stop signs.

In Nevada they had several intersections we came across with four stop signs...it puzzled me for a moment, until I was advised "The first one there goes first", and you know what? It worked...perfectly. If you got there first, the guy who pulled up next let you go, if several cars were there, it worked the same.You waited your turn.

Of course, this indicates a little courtesy and common sense on the part of the drivers...

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

How many close calls have people here had with a car that they see entering the roundabout opposite them, you assume they're going straight ahead as they're not indicating so you start to enter the roundabout, and then they suddenly turn right straight towards you without indicating?

Which is why you adopt defensive driving on roundabouts. Assume they're going around until proven otherwise. Signals or not, you'll be in the wrong if you're hit by them.

Regardless of any rules, roundabout signalling (or lack of) is all over the shop among Australian drivers so best to stick to the laws of survival.

[superfly]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Yes...which is why you should indicate right when turning right on a roundabout. It's just stupid to not indicate as you go around a roundabout until you are leaving it. How many close calls have people here had with a car that they see entering the roundabout opposite them, you assume they're going straight ahead as they're not indicating so you start to enter the roundabout, and then they suddenly turn right straight towards you without indicating?

I agree, drivers should indicate right otherwise I too would assume they were going straight ahead. Who cares what they do in other countries. We have to follow the rules here and I believe it's a good rule.

[superfly]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

There are a number of roundabouts here in Vic that dont have exits straight ahead, or to the right. They have exits for example at 10 o'clock, 1 o'clock and 4 o'clock, so you cannot apply the published rules for indicating at these roundabouts.

What about in the case where the same piece of road with the same name continuous through the roundabout. So physically it's not straight ahead but technically it is.

I guess if your exit is past the 12 o'clock mark then you indicate right as you enter and left as you exit. If your exit is before the 12 o'clock mark, then you indicate left as you enter and exit.

[4stanger]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Get rid of the damn things...they certainly don't make traffic flow any better than they did with lights or a set of stop signs.

In Nevada they had several intersections we came across with four stop signs...it puzzled me for a moment, until I was advised "The first one there goes first", and you know what? It worked...perfectly. If you got there first, the guy who pulled up next let you go, if several cars were there, it worked the same.You waited your turn.

Mythbusters had an episode where they compared the two - 4 stop sign intersection vs the roundabout.
Conclusion was the roundabout can process more cars through the intersection (about 25% more) compared to what the have in the USA, the 4 stop sign intersection.

[EVLKNEVL]

For all future reference, the phrase "turning right" should be interpreted as "navigating your vehicle onto a road which is more rightward oriented than the road you have just been driving on".

Hopefully that clears that up.

Don't you love absurd political-correctness.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by EVLKNEVL

For all future reference, the phrase "turning right" should be interpreted as "navigating your vehicle onto a road which is more rightward oriented than the road you have just been driving on".

Every vehicle should be required to carry a theodolite as well as the warning triangle.

[vanman_75]

Indicate left means your getting off or doing a lane change ,I don't care if your going around and around going right whatever I only need to know that your leaving the round about so I can pull in front of you .. no indicator means your Gunna keep going around ...how simple fact is I won't see your right indicator through 100 metres of trees , ten cars 6 entry points so it's 100% irrelevant...Europe do it right get that in your mind , aus just confuses a simple process ..now tell me if you go past me with your right indicator on which exit are you taking and why would I need to know ?

Just enter round about your on it till you need to leave ....indicate left ...ta..da I knowi can enter..

[csv8]

Originally Posted by EVLKNEVL

For all future reference, the phrase "turning right" should be interpreted as "navigating your vehicle onto a road which is more rightward oriented than the road you have just been driving on".

Hopefully that clears that up.

Don't you love absurd political-correctness.

An accident : "two vehicles occupying the same space of road at the same time "

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by vanman_75

now tell me if you go past me with your right indicator on which exit are you taking and why would I need to know ?

Just enter round about your on it till you need to leave ....indicate left ...ta..da I know i can enter..

You're on a losing wicket there in Australia. The geniuses in the bureaucracy have made the essential signal optional ("where practicable") and the non-essential signal compulsory. The result is confusion.

You can't assume anything about any signal, you just have to wait till you see the whites of their eyes heading out the exit. Otherwise you'll be collected by a left-signaller still going round as my friend did.

OK the productivity of the roundabout over the traditional intersection in Australia has been reduced from 25% to maybe 10 or 15% but it's a gain isn't it?!

Maybe KeepLeft with his contacts with the bureaucracy can help push some clarity into their thinking?

[vanman_75]

As you know round abouts take many forms , multiple entries exits , even traffic lights and no lane markings ...aus rules are plain stupid .

That's all I got ...there is no logical reason for the way the rules are written ..stand back and watch the confusion it's down right scary

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by csv8

An accident : "two vehicles attempting to occupying the same space of road at the same time "

I love these ones, they mainly consist of middle aged men.
You approach the roundabout and give way to the vehicle entering on your right, they make a left turn without indicating, meaning youve bought your vehicle to a complete stop for no reason.
The inevitable raised hand gesture in their direction is countered with a "well you saw me leaning in my seat as i approached, and i have communication issues with my wife" type look.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by vanman_75

..stand back and watch the confusion it's down right scary

and yet, of all intersections, roundabouts probably have the least amount of accidents! can't be that confusing now can they!

many people don't allow sufficient time for their car journeys, so they get impatient and frustrated way to quickly and easily. thats why many people think roundabouts are confusing, because some cars hesitate, and don't go at the first available opportunity, and others force their way in when they perhaps should be giving way.

the actual rules aren't causing as much chaos as the drivers themselves just being laws unto themselves.

laws/rules in australia aren't that bad, but when only one of them actually gets policed, of course all the others are going to get ignored.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I've always known it was a requirement, I got my licence in 2002.

Got mine in 2000 and we were never taught indication off, its a complete waste of time. If the one giving way needs to worry that much about it then your jumping in to early.

[H.G]

Just keep doing what your doing kids.. road safety is over rated!

[vanman_75]

Originally Posted by Polyal

GoThatine in 2000 and we ever tadication ofits a complete waste of time.f the one giving wadeds to worry that much about it then your jumping in toarly.

Not sure if serious ?

Thats why roundabouts don't work inaustralia ...sorry for the attack but its people like you that slow em down.i guess you dont indicate to change lanes or go around corners , we should just wait to see what everyone does then go ..great logic tiger .

Im indicating left ...that means I'm leaving ..please explain why it's a waste of time ..enlighten me with your plan

[prydey]

do you indicate to join the roundabout? all this talk about it being a separate circular road, and only needing to indicate to leave it. surely using that logic, shouldn't you also indicate to join it??

not sure how it can be stated they don't work. the ones that think that, are normally the ones in a hurry to be somewhere.

[new2ford]

^^
They do work, just less efficiently than the ones in Europe. Just like motorways work less efficiently here because people don't keep left. So in both cases the productivity of the road (vehicles per hour capability) is down. I would think people would like roads to work better so that they can move along better. Thus goes the reasoning.

You're right that the confusion slows people down so the accident rate will be less than for an intersection. So I guess in a perverse way that's a good thing. My hope is that the rules would be simplified/clarified along European lines so that hopefully as new generations of drivers are educated things will improve. (The poster who said that he was never taught to indicate left on exit by a driving school makes me worry about the ability of some driving schools!)

But then we have the theory that the "road safety industry" has a vested interest in roads not working to their maximum efficiency and motorists being confused, in order to satisfy the mantra of slowing everyone down. So keeping left and proper roundabout use are not going to be policed like "speeding" is.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by new2ford

(The poster who said that he was never taught to indicate left on exit by a driving school makes me worry about the ability of some driving schools!)

it wasn't mandatory in all states until sometime in the last decade. certainly wasn't a law when i got my licence 20 years ago.