Holden workers go on strike

[MercurySilver]

Look at everyone bagging the workers lol
You do realize they are trying to change a current Eba?
Something the company and the workers agreed to!

I'd spit too.

[nstg8a]

I'd walk too.

It's blindingly obvious Holden is on death row almost as much as ford is. Good on the workers for fighting to get what they will be owed.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by V8 Ghia Mike

Man, I'd get a bottle of bourbon, a handshake and straight onto to dole queue! I'd be more than happy with 52 weeks. People don't know how lucky they have it sometimes. With that sort of payout I'd take 6 months off then spend the other looking for a new job.

Mike

60K pay out, no dole for two years.

[Charliewool]

Methinks he was referring to HIS job....
No payout

[MercurySilver]

If the company can't aford the 52 weeks then it was a bit silly coming to that agreement I reckon.

[kolski]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

Look at everyone bagging the workers lol
You do realize they are trying to change a current Eba?
Something the company and the workers agreed to!

I'd spit too.

Well said merc, these people bagging the workers obviously have no idea & are not in the industry and dont know the meaning of EBA.

[UberKnee]

A years pay for being axed and its still not enough...and people wonder why its too expensive to build cars in Australia.

[kolski]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

A years pay for being axed and its still not enough...and people wonder why its too expensive to build cars in Australia.

NO its not enough if there was a agreement done

[GS608]

Unions are the reason manufacturing in this country is ******. Everyone is too greedy and wants this and that making it unviable for companies to build **** here and then whinge when they lose their job to someone else who will happily do it for a third of the cost?

[mik]

Originally Posted by fiveohGS

Unions are the reason manufacturing in this country is ******. Everyone is too greedy and wants this and that making it unviable for companies to build **** here and then whinge when they lose their job to someone else who will happily do it for a third of the cost?

No Unions are not the reason manufacturing in this country is kaput, you can give successive decades of govco policy the trophy for that one, while unions may play a small part in it, govco's determination to give importers that flood our shores better trading deals while our manufacturing cops DR Ben Dover trading deals.
you can add to that general policy that has had the effect of putting costs in all directions on an up hill spiral for decades ..... while again for the flooding cheap importers it gets easier to make a buk.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by fiveohGS

Unions are the reason manufacturing in this country is ******. Everyone is too greedy and wants this and that making it unviable for companies to build **** here and then whinge when they lose their job to someone else who will happily do it for a third of the cost?

you don't need unions for an EBA...
so blaming them is pointless.

[Nikked]

Few ways to look at this:

-Greedy unions
-Holden are sinking, workers are capitalising
-Come 2016-17 there will be thousands out of a job, and a year of redundancy is possibly not enough in the grand scheme, with said thousands looking for a job.
-At least ford workers know they will be out of a job and can start applying, earing tickets etc before the axe comes down.

[timeout]

One way FTA with Thailand, China and other cheap labour countries, with that we cannot compete with that.

This is the start of a one way ticket to the third word for Australia...

[Bossxr8]

Good on them, Holden are trying to apply the SA EBA re-negotiation to the Melbourne workers who had nothing to do with it, cause it only applied to Elizabeth. And that EBA re-negotiation is not even in effect until Holden get the contract for the 2 2016 cars.

So Holden are shafting them on 2 fronts. They have absolutely zero business ethics. Everyone knows the Holden V6 plant is going to shut in 2016 wether the Commodore continues or not, GM are closing 2 V6 plants and Melbourne will be one of them. The workers have a big slice of their redundancy to lose from this, they have no jobs post 2016 anyway.

Isn't it funny the way Holden crowed about how good a deal this EBA was for their workers only 12 months ago, then they turn around a year later and say they can't afford it. What sort of clowns are running this company?

[GASWAGON]

If anyone thinks these changes are bad now.....wait till 2016 comes....I honestly am scared to think of what effects the closing of both manufacturers is going to have....Apart from all the factory workers and parts suppliers down the line....what about the sales people and mechanics in the dealerships all over the country?

These events are EXTREEMELY serious and damaging to so many people its just not funny..... Where THE HELL are all these workers going to go?

[buickman]

Originally Posted by stevanford

Not quite. Most redundancies are set at 4 weeks for every year of service. 20 years service would add up to 80 weeks or about $64,000 if they were getting paid 800 a week.

I've had 2 payouts and thats what both were 4 weeks and and extra 6 weeks on top on that if you were over 45 in one on the companies very few would get more than $40,000 and whats wrong with that if your have been a loyal worker and a EBA is in place you cannot change the goal posts then give large payments to CEO's for stitching a working man of some coin.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Good on them, Holden are trying to apply the SA EBA re-negotiation to the Melbourne workers who had nothing to do with it, cause it only applied to Elizabeth. And that EBA re-negotiation is not even in effect until Holden get the contract for the 2 2016 cars.

So Holden are shafting them on 2 fronts. They have absolutely zero business ethics. Everyone knows the Holden V6 plant is going to shut in 2016 wether the Commodore continues or not, GM are closing 2 V6 plants and Melbourne will be one of them. The workers have a big slice of their redundancy to lose from this, they have no jobs post 2016 anyway.

Isn't it funny the way Holden crowed about how good a deal this EBA was for their workers only 12 months ago, then they turn around a year later and say they can't afford it. What sort of clowns are running this company?

Problem is most people here probably haven't worked in the same situation for a dodgy company out to shaft its workers, so they haven't been involved with a union before or worked under an EBA..

All they see is the media's portrayal of unions.

Remember its an AGREEMENT between the employees and employer, the employer is trying to worm their way out of what they agreed to.

To the people who think its unions who caused our manufacturing problems, would you work for the same rates as the production line workers in Ford Thailand?

Wages are high because we have a high standard of living and the costs associated with it. I see lots of people complaining about unions and their conditions but not many offering to lose their 4 weeks paid annual leave or their paid sick leave, or paid qualifications, or company liability when you damage something belonging to a customer, or the unfair dismissal laws, superannuation etc.

What I find hilarious is these CEOs of big companies want to cut penalty rates, remove OH&S legislation because it costs too much money, then they give themselves HUGE payrises, its all about taking from the little guy.

Manufacturing in the USA is going out too (to a lesser degree) and they have much lower wages and conditions. Talk to the people serving in the US defence forces and you'll find out why they are there instead of living in poverty on their piddly minimum wage, and even then they get rolled on $$$. My cousin got back from Afghanistan and had a bit to do with the boys from the USA, and that was what he mentioned, or they go through the army because they cant afford higher education.

The same thing will happen to Ford Thailand and China, a day will come where they will demand higher wages and conditions across the board and then the manufacturers will pull out from there for the same reasons. When that is we don't know, but it will happen and the manufacturers will move onto the next 3rd world country. Hell, China is even trying to weed out corruption in its government, so something is happening.

Unfortunately we need tarriffs to be on a level playing field, as much as I hate limiting choice, but its too late now. If you work in a dead end field like I do or the manufacturing people do, skill up before you have no job, thats what I'm doing.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by EF_6

If anyone thinks these changes are bad now.....wait till 2016 comes....I honestly am scared to think of what effects the closing of both manufacturers is going to have....Apart from all the factory workers and parts suppliers down the line....what about the sales people and mechanics in the dealerships all over the country?

These events are EXTREEMELY serious and damaging to so many people its just not funny..... Where THE HELL are all these workers going to go?

Nothing will happen to the mechanics and sales. Dealerships will carry on as usual. The death of Mitsubishi Australia didn't affect the dealer network at all.

I'm guessing most part suppliers are hurting now or have already shut up shop due to lack of demand.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by fiveohGS
Unions are the reason manufacturing in this country is ******. Everyone is too greedy and wants this and that making it unviable for companies to build **** here and then whinge when they lose their job to someone else who will happily do it for a third of the cost?

Originally Posted by UberKnee
A years pay for being axed and its still not enough...and people wonder why its too expensive to build cars in Australia.

If you going to bag the unions & workers then I hope you can find time to bag the CEO's & Executives who are getting obscene wages & bonuses on top of their golden hand shakes as they are just as responsible.

[Express]

Originally Posted by trublu

If you going to bag the unions & workers then I hope you can find time to bag the CEO's & Executives who are getting obscene wages bonuses on top of their golden hand shakes as they are just as responsible.

I’m not going to get into war on who is to blame for uncompetitive manufacturing in Australia but I will say there is no such thing as an obscene wage.

You are worth what you sell yourself for, pure and simple.

Otherwise you can easily say regardless of the fact it’s an EBA or not, most Australian workers would find an agreement where semi-skilled workers are paid 52 weeks plus as a redundancy package when most of us get but a pittance in comparison as obscene.

In fact when companies go belly up, many don’t get paid at all. The banks and secured creditors get first bite of the cherry. Most employees need to keep their fingers crossed something is left over.

Car manufacturers are here because CEO’s & Executives do deals with the Government, Unions and Employees to keep these businesses afloat. They must be worth every cent otherwise none of the factory staff would have had a job for all these years.



.

[wrongwaynorris]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Good on them, Holden are trying to apply the SA EBA re-negotiation to the Melbourne workers who had nothing to do with it, cause it only applied to Elizabeth. And that EBA re-negotiation is not even in effect until Holden get the contract for the 2 2016 cars.

So Holden are shafting them on 2 fronts. They have absolutely zero business ethics. Everyone knows the Holden V6 plant is going to shut in 2016 wether the Commodore continues or not, GM are closing 2 V6 plants and Melbourne will be one of them. The workers have a big slice of their redundancy to lose from this, they have no jobs post 2016 anyway.

Isn't it funny the way Holden crowed about how good a deal this EBA was for their workers only 12 months ago, then they turn around a year later and say they can't afford it. What sort of clowns are running this company?

The same clowns who bankrupted GM in the states and then prceeded to blame way too generous retirement schemes ( designed to attract retain and placate workers ) that they themselves signed off on . Back in the early 70's shortly after we emigrated my father who worked in the motor trade did contract work for the big three , the only one of them he had troubles with were GMH . In my own thankfully infrequent dealings with GMH I have found them to be thoroughly unsrupulous , unpricipled , inveterate liars and an absolute shower of bastards .

[wrongwaynorris]

Unions are FAR from blameless in this as is their political arm the ALP. The very real problem with both the union movement and the Labour Party and their members is not one of them has the faintest idea how to run a business . The overwhelming majority of union officials do not give a tinkers cuss for their members , they are merely using the union movement as a stalking horse to further their own political agendas . Look at the labour party MLA's and MLC's , most of which are ex union hacks . The reason we are where we are today can be traced back to 1973 and the Whitlam Government . It never fails to amaze me how the Labour party manage to retain so much support from lowly paid lowly skilled workers when they have done more to lose these people their jobs than any one else . Here is a piece I wrote when it was first announced Ford were ceasing manufacturing in Australia earlier this year .

" Why are we where we are now ? or How I learned to stop worrying and love the subsidy .

So how did we reach the momentous announcement Ford were forced to make this week . Believe it or not this all started back in 1972 when the dye was cast by the then inept Whitlam governments monumentally stupid decision to radically wind back tariff protection . In the deft stroke of a pen Whitlam and his cohorts swept away what John McEwan had worked so hard to institutionalise in the Australian economy , tariff protection for Australian manufacturing . In 1973 less than a year after taking power and justifiably having spent decades in the political wilderness of cluelessness and ineptitude Whitlam and his equally moribund trade minister Jim Cairns without any submissions to treasury cut tariffs by a whopping 25% overnight with the net result that one year later we had a 30% increase in imports and a $1.5 Billion increase in the trade deficit ( To put things into perspective that’s $ 1.5 Billion in 1974 when a house in Sydney cost less than $ 25,000.00 , and an XB Falcon cost about $ 3,500.00 ) They cited a report from a taskforce chaired by Tariff Board chairman Alf Rattigan, set up in secret three weeks earlier, to look at ways of stimulating imports to relieve shortages of supplies and restrain prices. It was a long-term answer to a short-term problem. Yet the report was not submitted to cabinet, the issue was brought on without notice, and ministers had little or no opportunity to seek advice. In 1972-73, Australia recorded its last current account surplus. A year later, after the tariff cuts, import volumes jumped by a third, and the current account deficit was here to stay. Manufacturing lost 138,000 jobs in two years, and high unemployment became entrenched. The tariff cuts were only one factor in all this, but they symbolised the defects in Whitlam's "crash through or crash" style of decision-making. So here started the foundation every subsequent government has had to deal with ever since .
There is currently , and has been in the last decade much gnashing of teeth by about 75% of the great unwashed populace about the subsidies paid to Australian manufacturers especially Car makers . Obviously any sense of parochialism or national pride has been effortlessly swept away in the greed fuelled generations since the baby boomers and that any sentimental attachment to Australian made cars is a relic of the distant path . In the last decade Ford have received $ 1.1 billion and Holden $ 1.9 Billion ( I’ll leave Toyota out as they are relative latecomers and Mitsubishi as they have long since departed ) . To put it into context however including ALL taxpayer funded subsidies paid to ALL car manufacturers in the last decade if amortised across our population of 22,000,000 it amounts to less than $ 18.00 per person man , woman and child . So it has cost us the taxpayers the princely sum of $ 1.80 per year each to prevent the collapse of plants such as Elizabeth , Fishermans Bend , Altona , Geelong and Broadmeadows as noted by Kim Carr . The champions of “ FREE “ trade who opine that subsidies should be removed at all costs , invariably have NO answer to the systematic deindustrialisation and unemployment that follows such short sighted narrow minded blinkered policies . It follows that these “ FREE TRADERS “ say anything that can not be produced efficiently locally should be imported .
Imports , in this case , of SUBSIDISED cars from overseas .
I wonder how those of you so vehemently opposed to subsidies will feel when all your subsidies , YES YOUR subsidies are also stopped dead . You know subsidies like your child care , your private and public health insurance , your private schools , your universities , your accountant , your first home , your nursing home , your ABC , your Salary et al et al .
I am not in any way shape or form defending every decision made by Australian car manufacturers but in an industry protected by tariff barriers since its effective inception in 1948 up until 1973 little was done by the manufacturers to improve the quality of the local product because effectively they did not need to as essentially they were only catering to a local market largely precluded from buying imported products due to their price . Governments are not entirely blameless either in that along with subsidies should have gone performance clauses guaranteeing constant product improvements .
Manufacturing provides stable wages and working conditions across a range of industry sectors and generally speaking careers in manufacturing are long term with many Ford and Holden workers working in the “ same “ job / place for 30 to 40 years . But when deindustrialisation thins out manufacturing and downsizing occurs the following problems emerge .
1 . How do you retrain and redploy workers aged 40 to 55 to be productive contributors to society and give them a sense of self worth . Ageism is already rife in Australian employment markets .
2 . The intendant retraining costs will fall to governments ( read taxpayers ) with NO guarantee of employability regardless of how successful the retraining is .
3 . What labour intensive industries will replace heavy industry in Geelong , Broadmeadows , Elizabeth , Fishermans Bend and Altona ?
4 . It is criminal to squander the considerable investements in both capital and skills accumulated over decades .
Our current federal Labour government is so monumentally and overwhelmingly bereft of ideas or even the most basic clues of a market economy as was their predecessor Labour colleagues from Whitlam , Cairns , Button with the notable exception of Kim Carr .
Maybe they should look to the Chinese , Americans and Europeans who value manufacturing and PROTECT it via subsidies to a far greater extent than we ever did in this country . Case in point Germany with like us a first world labour rate subsidise their car industry to the tune of US$ 95.00 per person per capita , a far cry from our $ 1.80 , America again with a first world labour rate subsidises its car industry to the tune of $ 260.00 per person per capita . Both the Germans and the Americans are NOT stupid , they realise their car manufacturing sector is strategically essential to their overall economic wellbeing and future security .
Australia has first rate engineers ( the FG platform is a far better rear drive platform than the current Mustang and the Barra engine is after BMW the finest inline 6 in the world ) and Ford recognise this fact leaving Australia as a technology centre for world excellence continuing to employ 1000 people beyond 2016 .
Sadly however Australia is let down by second rate unions , third rate management and a fourth rate government ( in bed with the second rate unions too ) .
It is beyond gauling in the extreme to hear this countries MOST MONUMENTALLY INEPT , OUT OF TOUCH , CLUELESS and by such a massive margin WORST ever prime minister leading a party purportedly with the “ WORKERS “ Interests at heart babbling platitudes to the masses in Geelong this week and having the temerity , the sheer audacity to cast aspersions at Ford who have copped massive losses for many years now due to her side of politics accumutively immesurable failures and somehow attempt to shift blame onto them .
Ford have given three years notice , THREE YEARS , NOT the overnight cessation of tariffs Whitlam and Cairns FORCED on an unsuspecting country and workforce by stealth by even lying to and hiding from their own party their decision to axe tariffs IMMEDIATELY to the tune of 25% . Buttons subsequent tampering around the edges without any true understanding of the industry or what the hell he was doing and now this final blow on her watch .
I have absolutely NO doubt whatsoever that Ford WILL do the right thing by all their unfortunate employees who will ultimately lose their jobs in 2016 . Alan Mullaly is a highly ethical man who has turned Ford around and rebuilt it without ANY government funded bail out packages from the US taxpayer and the winds of change he has breathed throughout Ford worldwide will ensure this . The blood of the loss of these jobs is NOT on Fords hands in any way shape or form whatsoever . "

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Express

I’m not going to get into war on who is to blame for uncompetitive manufacturing in Australia but I will say there is no such thing as an obscene wage.

You are worth what you sell yourself for, pure and simple.

Otherwise you can easily say regardless of the fact it’s an EBA or not, most Australian workers would find an agreement where semi-skilled workers are paid 52 weeks plus as a redundancy package when most of us get but a pittance in comparison as obscene.

In fact when companies go belly up, many don’t get paid at all. The banks and secured creditors get first bite of the cherry. Most employees need to keep their fingers crossed something is left over.

Car manufacturers are here because CEO’s & Executives do deals with the Government, Unions and Employees to keep these businesses afloat. They must be worth every cent otherwise none of the factory staff would have had a job for all these years.



.

Well if the bosses are worth every cent as you say then fair enough but don't bag the workers if they are lucky enough to get a generous pay out, after all these CEO's & Executives approved these EBA's

The workers are only fighting what they have won over the years & remember this it is not the redundancy package causing GMH ceasing production.

[GQ_Smooth]

Holden is the same business as Ford, factory workers getting paid 55K-85K per year (closer to 55K now due to very little if any overtime) is not the reason Holden are closing. The CEO getting $850K per year is not why Holden are closing.

Australians not buying 70,000 Commodores per year is why Holden will be closing. Historically, only Toyota have exported any cars from Australia in any meaningful quantity and as we've said 100's of times Detroit/Dearborn isn't going to be putting Australian jobs ahead of US jobs. Society has moved on. The more I think about it, even if imports were 10-20% more expensive, do any of you genuinely think it would turn more buyers to Commodore or Falcon? Base Mazda 3 will be $24K instead of $20K drive away. Will that convince people to buy a $28K XT instead of it? I can't see it happening. I genuinely wish I was wrong. If Holden or Ford made a local genuine premium product that they can make higher margins on and were "aspirational" vehicles the market would be happy to pay a premium for, then we would have had a chance. But our tastes seem to change every 10 years or so and it takes a long time to develop a new model. Anyway, I digress, back to the point. I can't see Holden trying to go back on a EBA without their being a clause allowing them to do it. They leave themselves open to pay penalties if it goes to arbitration, so I believe GMH's lawyers would see a loop whole they are trying to push this through.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by EF_6

This is where unions are worth paying fees for.....Job security, payrates, and EBA agreed packages.

"Job security" well yes, right up until the whole place closes down. I suppose you are right. Unions certainly are effective.

Can anyone answer me this. What makes this industry so special that it can afford to pay its workers such lavish pay packages and rights, for example why should they have up to 52-75 weeks when the rest of the industry is more like 12? I can't help but feel if the unions had a little less to say and were a little less effective, they might all still have jobs.

"Unions worth paying fees too". I guess it comes down to whether you think short term or long term, unfortunately these I do believe most Australians do only think of today and never give the future a thought

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by kolski

NO its not enough if there was a agreement done

To be fair though, whenever workers go on strike to get something aren't they just going against an agreement they previously made? If you sign a contract that says you get paid x amount with x benefits but then after a while decide you want and strike for it...its pretty much the same thing as this. employee's, employers they go back on agreements all the time.

[stazza]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

To be fair though, whenever workers go on strike to get something aren't they just going against an agreement they previously made? If you sign a contract that says you get paid x amount with x benefits but then after a while decide you want and strike for it...its pretty much the same thing as this. employee's, employers they go back on agreements all the time.

Dude, if you haven't worked in an industry with union backing or a job with union influence then don't bother commenting. If you are drawing to these conclusions from BS news drivel then that is just what it is, BS.

Workers don't just strike for the hell of it. It is illegal and people have been prosecuted for it. But if the company isn't holding up their end of the agreement, then why should you be at work? Something has to give, and sometime people have no choice but to say a big **** you the company and walk out the gate. A strike is usually the last resort. The company doesn't give a **** about the workers, everyone is expendable and can be easily replaced, so if you think you can just march up to the bosses office and demand they hold up their end of the agreement then you couldn't be more wrong.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by dddd

"Job security" well yes, right up until the whole place closes down. I suppose you are right. Unions certainly are effective.

Lets not forget the 60+ yrs of achievement gone by... unions are not to blame for this but more so that we are competing on an non level playing field.
You simply cant sustain the cost of Australian living on 3rd world wages wether your a union member or union basher.

Originally Posted by dddd

Can anyone answer me this. What makes this industry so special that it can afford to pay its workers such lavish pay packages and rights, for example why should they have up to 52-75 weeks when the rest of the industry is more like 12? I can't help but feel if the unions had a little less to say and were a little less effective, they might all still have jobs.

By the rest of the industry I take it you mean Ford, GM, Chrysler etc.
All these Multi -national GIANTS are aligned and share "their industrial awards" which are on par with each other. Again multinational giants that have the capacity to control the governments, or enough "real " asset equity to buy 3rd world countries for fun.

The rest of the industry on 12weeks ???? Lets not compare apples with pears.

Originally Posted by dddd

"Unions worth paying fees too". I guess it comes down to whether you think short term or long term, unfortunately these I do believe most Australians do only think of today and never give the future a thought

Are you suggesting the members and employees who's majority average 20yrs service but many have upto 35yrs were all thinking short term !
All the rights and conditions gained in Australia over the course of our industrialisation period have been short sighted...?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

To be fair though, whenever workers go on strike to get something aren't they just going against an agreement they previously made? If you sign a contract that says you get paid x amount with x benefits but then after a while decide you want and strike for it...its pretty much the same thing as this. employee's, employers they go back on agreements all the time.

No, you cant go back on an agreement
- An EBA is a legally binding/signed document accepted by both parties.
To make change for either party before documents expiry must be agreed to by both parties and the IR Commission, and rubber stamped.
It is not an "under the table letter of understanding".

Its like your bank trying to change your fixed rate mtg from 5% to 15% whilst your in contract...... no no no.

The fact the courts granted the workers "protected action" to defend their rights highlights the party in breach.

[GASWAGON]

Like i said why did Holden agree to the previous EBA if they did'nt like the figures?