Toyota Mirai - world record for hydrogen powered vehicle

[Franco Cozzo]

Doesn't water vapor (ie clouds) hold the most heat in our atmosphere? I wonder if this is going to cause future issues accelerating greenhouse effect holding in more heat and causing more floods as we're putting more water into the atmosphere than you would naturally through normal evaporation.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Doesn't water vapor (ie clouds) hold the most heat in our atmosphere? I wonder if this is going to cause future issues accelerating greenhouse effect holding in more heat and causing more floods as we're putting more water into the atmosphere than you would naturally through normal evaporation.

Ironically, clouds reflect sunlight. More cloud cover is actually beneficial.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

Ironically, clouds reflect sunlight. More cloud cover is actually beneficial.

What about their ability to keep heat inside the atmosphere - it's not so much the sunlight but not letting heat escape.

You see the effect of cloud cover here where I live on winter nights

Clouds in sky - 3-4 degrees overnight
Clear sky - 0 to -5 degrees overnight and cars iced over at 9PM

How about extra water vapour in the atmosphere, how is that going to effect tropical areas with increased rainfall?

What about places like Lismore where they had a couple 'once in 100 year floods' in the same year?

That's my interpretation of it, are we just changing one problem and creating another?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

What about their ability to keep heat inside the atmosphere - it's not so much the sunlight but not letting heat escape.

If less heat makes it to the surface, there is less of it to trap.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by b0son

Ironically, clouds reflect sunlight. More cloud cover is actually beneficial.

Beneficial? So is smog & Volcanoes by that logic.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Doesn't water vapor (ie clouds) hold the most heat in our atmosphere? I wonder if this is going to cause future issues accelerating greenhouse effect holding in more heat and causing more floods as we're putting more water into the atmosphere than you would naturally through normal evaporation.

I think your theory could be plausible but I believe the amount they would discharge is minimal to the amount of H20 already in the atmosphere.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I think your theory could be plausible but I believe the amount they would discharge is minimal to the amount of H20 already in the atmosphere.

You could probably say the same thing about CO2 and all the other nasties that come with fossil fuels. Like I think Australia's CO2 output, only 8% of it comes from our vehicle fleet.

By itself its not a problem but when the global fleet + industry is using hydrogen for everything and the byproduct is water vapor are we going to have other unintended consequences?

I reckon Toyota is barking up the wrong tree here, at least for light vehicle, hydrogen fuel cell only makes sense for commercial vehicles - assuming energy density of batteries doesn't suddenly improve exponentially.

Everyone claims to be able to do all this modelling and blah blah blah numbers/graphs/science - so do some modelling of predicted effects of lots of extra water vapor in the atmosphere.

They could be first to market with a viable truck prototype, no one seems to be bothering with commercial vehicle but everyone is punching up over hydrogen prototypes for light vehicles where there's others in the space and it makes no sense.

[hackney]

Wish they would make Hydrogen more mainstream!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by hackney

Wish they would make Hydrogen more mainstream!

Surely it could replace natural gas, there is obviously storage and transport issues that need to be solved first.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Beneficial? So is smog & Volcanoes by that logic.

Particulates scatter all wavelengths. Water does not.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by hackney

Wish they would make Hydrogen more mainstream!

Cogs are turning but very slow. It does make sense, the infrastructure is already in place.

It reminds me of the Beta vs VHS days. H2 cell vs Battery

Unfortunately, it seems battery has the foot hold atm.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Doesn't water vapor (ie clouds) hold the most heat in our atmosphere? I wonder if this is going to cause future issues accelerating greenhouse effect holding in more heat and causing more floods as we're putting more water into the atmosphere than you would naturally through normal evaporation.

Yes, you are correct in saying H20 is another climate driver.

Well, depends on how the H2 is made.

Currently most is made using, your favourite, natural gas.

If this was changed, and is currently on the way by using water. We'd have a more efficient process with little/no impacts.

[Wretched]

Some people mistakenly believe water vapor is the main driver of Earth’s current warming. But increased water vapor doesn’t cause global warming. Instead, it’s a consequence of it. Increased water vapor in the atmosphere amplifies the warming caused by other greenhouse gases.

The greenhouse gases in the dry air in Earth’s atmosphere include carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, ozone, and chlorofluorocarbons. While making up around 0.05% of Earth’s total atmosphere, they play major roles in trapping Earth’s radiant heat from the Sun and keeping it from escaping into space. Each is driven directly by human activities.

All five of these greenhouse gases are non-condensable. Non-condensable gases can’t be changed into liquid at the very cold temperatures present at the top of Earth’s troposphere, where it meets the stratosphere. As atmospheric temperatures change, the concentration of non-condensable gases remains stable.

But water vapor is a different animal. It’s condensable – it can be changed from a gas into a liquid. Its concentration depends on the temperature of the atmosphere. This makes water vapor the only greenhouse gas whose concentration increases because the atmosphere is warming, and causes it to warm even more.

If non-condensable gases weren’t increasing, the amount of atmospheric water vapor would be unchanged from its pre-industrial revolution levels.

https://climate.nasa.gov/ask-nasa-cl...nhouse-effect/

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Yes, you are correct in saying H20 is another climate driver.

Well, depends on how the H2 is made.

Currently most is made using, your favourite, natural gas.

If this was changed, and is currently on the way by using water. We'd have a more efficient process with little/no impacts.

Its made with electrolysis, correct?

So if you made it in VIC you'd make it with brown coal

https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-syste...-Dashboard-NEM

Look at 3 months/12 months for VIC.

QLD is majority black coal which is a bit nicer than our brown coal, same with NSW.

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Its made with electrolysis, correct?

So if you made it in VIC you'd make it with brown coal

https://www.aemo.com.au/Energy-syste...-Dashboard-NEM

Look at 3 months/12 months for VIC.

QLD is majority black coal which is a bit nicer than our brown coal, same with NSW.

Here is the process being talked up by the US energy! https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcell...-gas-reforming

Most H2 in Aust is made in QLD using Mat Caravans 'GAS'.... using, Yes, Electricity from Black coal/gas etc. Double win for the environment. Co2 from GAS+Electricity..... everybodies a winner there!! NOT!

Correct with electrolisis however lots of ineteresting projects using nano-tech, which has massive effeciency gains. Less power in to obtain more H2 out.
This coupled with Wind/solar/battery etc, Then we're cooking.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Most H2 in Aust is made in QLD using Mat Caravans 'GAS'.... using, Yes, Electricity from Black coal/gas etc. Double win for the environment. Co2 from GAS+Electricity..... everybodies a winner there!! NOT!

Correct with electrolisis however lots of ineteresting projects using nano-tech, which has massive effeciency gains. Less power in to obtain more H2 out.
This coupled with Wind/solar/battery etc, Then we're cooking.

I want more black coal! Yes,yes & yes!!!

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by hackney

I want more black coal! Yes,yes & yes!!!

Unfortunately, the writing is on the walll for it to be used as an energy source.

It'll still be mined, but for other purposes.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Unfortunately, the writing is on the walll for it to be used as an energy source.

It'll still be mined, but for other purposes.

More coal!! Yes, yes & yes!! Screw the Greenies!

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by hackney

More coal!! Yes, yes & yes!! Screw the Greenies!

Lol. You may not like their idealogies, but, at least they have their eyes open for 100yrs/1000ys down the track, not the next election sweetner.

BUT, lets not make this Political hey!

[hackney]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Lol. You may not like their idealogies, but, at least they have their eyes open for 100yrs/1000ys down the track, not the next election sweetner.

BUT, lets not make this Political hey!

They do not have their ‘eyes’ open.If they can gain seats they will do whatever it takes.They are the most toxic party in the nation.Their policies are just stupid & ill researched.A.C.T is a good place to start.Research my friend. Adam Bandt is a complete nut job. I have not time whatsoever for the Greens a very dangerous party if they ever gained power.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by hackney

They do not have their ‘eyes’ open.If they can gain seats they will do whatever it takes.They are the most toxic party in the nation.Their policies are just stupid & ill researched.A.C.T is a good place to start.Research my friend. Adam Bandt is a complete nut job. I have not time whatsoever for the Greens a very dangerous party if they ever gained power.

Whilst I agree with all the above we need to keep Politics out of the forum where possible.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Whilst I agree with all the above we need to keep Politics out of the forum where possible.

Agreed!