Motor Sept 2005 - BFYB - Another FPV failure!

[BA GT-HO]

I gave up on FPV a long, long time ago.

For the GT to be as slow as it was back when it was released was a bitter enough pill to swallow after all the hype, but for to still be as slow years later (both according to magazines and in the real world, 1/4 mile times etc.) is just sad.

What is the fastest ever time a GT has run completely stock in the real world? I can tell you now, I pray that it is faster than 13.8. If its not quicker than that then it shows you FPV have got some work to do. At the moment the GT is just a big thirsty crusier (which I wouldn't mind) and not as Sparkles says a "performance" car like FPV like you to think it is, and that is the problem.

They need to forget about V8s and make a new legend using the Typhoon as a base to start with.

[Steffo]

I learnt long ago that Ford/FPV (previously Tickford, but it really is the same company) make a good car every few years, then stick with the same basic thing until it becomes medicore, then make another decent one.

EB GT, EBII S-XR6 and ED XR8 Sprint. The GT was a glorious way to bring back the V8 in a performance type application, despite not exactly being that quick, it wasn't bad. The XR6 stomped everything that wasn't a HSV GTS, and it wasn't that expensive either. The ED Sprint stomped everything period.

So what happens? The XR6 motor remains virtually unchanged all the way until AUIII days, making a 3kW power gain with the introduction of EF. The 200kW 420Nm GT engine output carries over to another GT, then the TE50, then XR8, and lingers around alot longer then it should have.

So Ford/FTE decide to get off their butts, and produce the 5.6litre 250kW T-Series cars. They're excellent, take on HSV and stomp them. The 220kW XR8 is on par with the 225kW SS. Everyone is happy.

Maybe in 2012 we'll see them make another actual performance car that stomps everything else.. and then we can wait until 2020 for the next one.

[4Vman]

Yawn.... it absolutely amazes me the amount of energy some of you people put into bagging the absolute crap out of Ford for producing a product that clearly meets their market and sales plan, is clearly an awesome package and is clearly meeting with huge consumer approval...
The vast buying public can see it, why cant you guys?
How many of you "critics" and "experts" actually own or could afford to buy a XR8 F6 or BAGT today?

Best sales ever for a Ford performance product = success,
No sales = failure,
FPV build road cars not race cars,
Lap times mean jack Sh!t!
Get over it.

[Citric GT]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I learnt long ago that Ford/FPV (previously Tickford, but it really is the same company) make a good car every few years, then stick with the same basic thing until it becomes medicore, then make another decent one.

EB GT, EBII S-XR6 and ED XR8 Sprint. The GT was a glorious way to bring back the V8 in a performance type application, despite not exactly being that quick, it wasn't bad. The XR6 stomped everything that wasn't a HSV GTS, and it wasn't that expensive either. The ED Sprint stomped everything period.

So what happens? The XR6 motor remains virtually unchanged all the way until AUIII days, making a 3kW power gain with the introduction of EF. The 200kW 420Nm GT engine output carries over to another GT, then the TE50, then XR8, and lingers around alot longer then it should have.

So Ford/FTE decide to get off their butts, and produce the 5.6litre 250kW T-Series cars. They're excellent, take on HSV and stomp them. The 220kW XR8 is on par with the 225kW SS. Everyone is happy.

Maybe in 2012 we'll see them make another actual performance car that stomps everything else.. and then we can wait until 2020 for the next one.

Maybe it a case of them prefering to build road cars instead of race cars. In which case thier current line up is extremely good.

Dont get me wrong. I'd like to see them performing better in contests like BFYB too, but as a car that I drive around in everyday I'd much prefer something that has some suspension in it. My EL handles good (better than my BA XR6 did), but rides like a billycart and at times gets bloody annoying. I'd trade off some of that handling for a bit of comfort any day.

[russellw]

I'm going to side with Sparkles on this one. It's actually irrelevant whther the car meets sales or marketing projections because the buying public (even the enthusiast one) is rarely a good judge of what makes a good car - hence the strong HSV and SS Commodore sales for all those years that they were poorly built. Indeed the strong sales will preclude FPV from doing anything about it - the much lauded T3 was only a knee jerk reaction to the pitiful T1 and T2 sales. Without that incentive for FPV we have as muich chance as a bride keeping her pants on of ever seeing any significant shift in the FPV approach.

The FPV range clearly meet the needs of a good proportion of that market space as indicated by the sales numbers although a closer analysis of them indicates that the victories are more a drop in Holden share rather than a real gain for Ford. Still a victory is a victory even if it is a bit hollow.

The "Total Performance" tag is a complete crock in line with most marketing hype and I've long held the view that FPV really meant Falsely Presented Vehicles rather than anything with performance connotations.

In real terms there is little performance differentation between the Typhoon, XR6T, XR8 and the GT range as witnessed by numerous tests both real world and test environment. Indeed for a track day or fang up a favourite stretch of road the overweight GT twins wouldn't be on my list of choices. Don't bother throwing springs at it either - it can be improved but will still lag by 100 + kg over the front axle against any similarly equipped Commodore. For those who doubt that I'd suggest you take a look at the detailed lap breakdowns from an Australian Performance car round and compare the Team GT cars against their Commodore oposition and see what mid corner speed will do for you. They don't lack for horsepower but they do lack turn in and exit speed. Might be interesting to see what happens at Oran Park with the 87 car and it's weight reducing alloy block. I'm tipping a top 3 result if Falky stays out of trouble and it holds together.

I'd be happy with the nomenclature change to FCV - it is more accurate and a better reflection of where the actual market strength sits as the vehicles stand at present.

Cheers
Russ

[sbutler]

OH dear, I can see were this will end up...

[Donut King]

Originally Posted by sbutler

OH dear, I can see were this will end up...

depends if you keep your mouth shut or not :

[SpoolMan]

How many people will buy a car on whats written in this magazine %?
anyone who was going to buy a GT or HSV wouldn't be looking at a mini or WRX its all a different market.
the market dominates what we get, if some think FPV fulls short of this, go buy the $45k mini or the $50k STI, it was quicker around the corners....

[XA-Coupe]

If I was that bent up on supreme handling and accelleration I would buy a LS1 powered clubman.
Really, they aren;t the ultimate in anything. They could go faster, handle better etc etc but they are still a damned fine car and I am more than happy with mine.

[Bossxr8]

I don't understand why FPV don't offer an optional suspension package to please anyone who wants to take their car to the track. It can't be that hard to try out a few sets of springs, shocks and sway bars can it. I know that costs development dollars but it would appeal to diehards who want a track racer. Ride quality is a nice thing to have but I think FPV have gone too far towards a soft ride than handling, they really need to balance it out a bit better.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Donut King

depends if you keep your mouth shut or not :

Red hands DK a huge bag of Marbles... :the_finge

[HEMI POWER]

I don't know what all the fuss is about.These newer type vechiles are build for one reason only,and that's sales and profit.If u really want a real performance vechile buy a 70 model Falcon GT. : Ever since Ford dropped the 8 in the 80's they have never been in contention with HSV,even with the T3 as some may state.Give them some time and hopefully we will see some High Performance vechiles coming out of FPV.In the meantime i am enjoying my Beast it does everything i want it too and that's all i care in the long run.Now i wonder if i can get a 4 point harness in the BA GT. :

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by CSV_LS1

Going by what people have said over time and what is said in the BFYB is that the GT has a bigger 'light switch' in the revs that make it feel faster.

The BA GT is on par with the XR8 in a sprint to 100 kays.After that it's a HUGE difference.I only go by my own experiences and having friends with M3's, XR8's, AU T3's and GTS Monaros the BA GT does better than expected.I am more dissapointed in the F6's write up.After driving one i still believe the F6 is the pick of the FPV range.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

The BA GT is on par with the XR8 in a sprint to 100 kays.After that it's a HUGE difference.I only go by my own experiences and having friends with M3's, XR8's, AU T3's and GTS Monaros the BA GT does better than expected.I am more dissapointed in the F6's write up.After driving one i still believe the F6 is the pick of the FPV range.

AHHHHH!!!!!!! THANKYOU , THANKYOU... :

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

... Commendably though, the GT DID beat the SV8 and GTO in it's best lap time ...

I'm glad .. I'd hate to think my "cheap-***" SV8 could out-handle a GT ;) [ just kidding .. don't get all upset about it!! ]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

... SV8 Commodore 107kph, Mini Cooper 108kph, and SS Commodore 110kph, with the STi doing 113kph.

Interesting? Tyres must really make a difference? i.e. SV8 = 17", SS = 18" ... and the SS is "fatter" than an SV8 ... hmm ...

[cogdoc]

Well for me the GT goes faster than I have the ability to drive it. I will no doubt notice those few kph missing round the corners at my upcomming FPV day and point this out to the instructor in my defence. Thanks for the heads up.

[JPFS1]

I'm sorry but in my personal opinion, (which doesn't count for ANYTHING) those that are coming down hard on FPV have got it wrong.

To say that the FPV vehicles don't live up to FPV's marketing slogans, yet they weigh 100kg's+ over the competition where the perception of its performance when measured against its competitors is dependant on the driver in most cases, is really stetching the line. There's no doubt that Ford and FPV have turned the barge around, there's no doubt that they are the best Ford's to come out of the factory and there's still no doubt that they have achieved what FORD/FPV have set for themselves, a bit more patience and you might even find that FORD/FPV will even deliver on the expectations of their performance enthusiast fan base.

The difference is marginal when looking at the technical differences which are major, so in this regard, i believe they've done a great job with what they've got so far, it's only getting better.

They need a proper sports model FPV as well as the luxury GT and GT-P. It could have a basic interior but with the alloy block, light weight wheels, better suspension, good brakes and some aluminium panels for the boot and bonnet. Of course this will never happen because ford australia never seem interested in competing with other brands so ill probably end up going from my AU xr8 to a VY SS.

[JPFS1]

You have to remember, it's only NOW that Ford's performance arm is becoming a viable and profitable business!! Everything prior has been hanging on by a thread... to say the least.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They need a proper sports model FPV as well as the luxury GT and GT-P. .............. Of course this will never happen because ford australia never seem interested in competing with other brands .........

Or it could just be because the All Alloy FPV Ford Steffo would end up with a retail price of $200K+. Commercial reality is a bummer.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They need a proper sports model FPV as well as the luxury GT and GT-P. It could have a basic interior but with the alloy block, light weight wheels, better suspension, good brakes and some aluminium panels for the boot and bonnet. Of course this will never happen because ford australia never seem interested in competing with other brands so ill probably end up going from my AU xr8 to a VY SS.

*COUGH*
FPV F8 Sprint Concept
*COUGH*

man this is a nasty throat problem i've got :baby bott

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Or it could just be because the All Alloy FPV Ford Steffo would end up with a retail price of $200K+. Commercial reality is a bummer.

:hihi: :hihi: It that the one made from that super light weight super strong material called Steffalloy(tm) ?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They need a proper sports model FPV as well as the luxury GT and GT-P. It could have a basic interior but with the alloy block, light weight wheels, better suspension, good brakes and some aluminium panels for the boot and bonnet. Of course this will never happen because ford australia never seem interested in competing with other brands so ill probably end up going from my AU xr8 to a VY SS.

Ill go out on a limb here and say such a vehicle would be horendously expensive to develop and be a sales failure due to the cost of the vehicle and lack of GENUINE BUYER interest.. (as opposed to "internet dreamer" interest)...

Everyone seems to think HSV are the performance car Gods so if they canned the idea (HRT427) why would Ford do it?

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Or it could just be because the All Alloy FPV Ford Steffo would end up with a retail price of $200K+. Commercial reality is a bummer.

You don't need to make the entire thing out of aluminium, you keep the steel shell and use existing ford parts like the alloy block and not throw tons of luxury stuff in it.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ill go out on a limb here and say such a vehicle would be horendously expensive to develop and be a sales failure due to the cost of the vehicle and lack of GENUINE BUYER interest..

Everyone seems to think HSV are the performance car Gods so if they canned the idea (HRT427) why would Ford do it?

It wouldn't need to be that extreme, look at the HSV with the optional performance upgrade they have now. The main thing is the heavy boss block and the soft suspension.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

You don't need to make the entire thing out of aluminium, you keep the steel shell and use existing ford parts like the alloy block and not throw tons of luxury stuff in it.

Early days, I think you'll see more good gear in time. I think the most important think is for FPV to establish themselves as a volume seller and to carry that improvement through follow up sales..

Yes they need stove hot models, but realistic relatively affordable ones. Not orphans!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

It wouldn't need to be that extreme, look at the HSV with the optional performance upgrade they have now. The main thing is the heavy boss block and the soft suspension.

The simple solution is aftermarket mods.
The aftermarket companies (such as herrods) have catered nicely with high quality stuff, it would cost Ford 2-3 times as much to make a vehicle with those features as it would to buy the car and get it modified.
The aftermarket caters nicely for the BA now and is far more cost effective than expecting Ford to offer the parts.
I bet you could probably buy the HSV ohlins shocks cheaper through other outlets and get them to fit the shocks than getting HSV to supply.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The simple solution is aftermarket mods.
The aftermarket companies (such as herrods) have catered nicely with high quality stuff, it would cost Ford 2-3 times as much to make a vehicle with those features as it would to buy the car and get it modified.
The aftermarket caters nicely for the BA now and is far more cost effective than expecting Ford to offer the parts.

Yeah but stuff like an alloy block is much easier for ford to do it when they are building the engine than for me to buy an alloy block, rebuild the entire motor and then have an iron block left over that I don't need.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Yeah but stuff like an alloy block is much easier for ford to do it when they are building the engine than for me to buy an alloy block, rebuild the entire motor and then have an iron block left over that I don't need.

The alloy block would require a fair amount of testing, research and modification for road purposes due to its different oiling system, and probably add 20K to the price......

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The alloy block would require a fair amount of testing, research and modification for road purposes due to its different oiling system, and probably add 20K to the price......

They already have one, its in the ford GT supercar. Its not more work than building the 5.6L T3s.