English at Schools

[4.9 EF Futura]

Have we not covered this about 1,000,000,000 times already this year??? Yes, yes... we're all much better than them. Kids these days/teachers can't spell/mobile phones are to blame.

It takes all sorts guys. If you intend on judging people based on their spelling and grammatical skills then you are going to deprive yourself of the company of some great people. Ironically, it's your loss.

Now let's move on, lest our collective high horse reach too dizzying an altitude.

Hey, I've got one for ya... 90% of our face to face communication is non verbal. So what's with all these morons who don't know how to effectively use their body language???

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

, I dont bother reading any further and just put the writer down as a buffoon who's opinion is probably not worth considering anyway.

Lol.

Now THAT is classy!!!

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Agreed, if it talks like a duck... etc

We have enough trouble just getting them to speak English.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Skooter

I recently finished high school which is a private school and I went to a private primary school, and to be honest I cant really remember the last time I had a spelling or grammer lesson. Even in primary school we never had spelling tests or similar in years 6 or 7. I think these days its more about analysing texts rather than writing them. In my essays that were marked by teachers occasionaly there would be a circled misplelt word or grammer error, but thats it.

Geez, back in my day we had spelling tests in year 2, every day, 50 words. It was rarely focused on past that because there usually wasn't a need to.

I believe the written word is beginning to suffer and the English language leads itself to a lot of ambiguity. What I don't understand is why.

Written communication has become ingrained in our society and replacing a lot of verbal communication, yet the skills required to be effective at it have dropped significantly. I use a few shortcuts when I spell but do it rarely. What I don't like is having to cross reference a post with the 'Habib decoder ring' to even begin to understand what the writer was trying to get across. Normally when I have to do that I just don't bother. If someone doesn't take care in effectively communicating their thoughts I generally take that as sign that they don't really want their thoughts known.

The focus certainly shouldn't be on analysing a text, it should be based on the writers ability to clearly convey their ideas or their message. Those that believe shortcuts are fine, I wonder if they would accept a script for medication in SMS speak.

[GXL078]

[QUOTE=GCFordChic]I do hate it when old people whinge all the time about the younger generation not being up to the standard that they believe themselves to be at. :P

QUOTE]Yeah, 100 years ago only about 20% of the population could actually read.

[Allen]

I think a major problem lies with the teachers that actually teach the classes.
During my high school life, I've had many english teachers that had very poor spelling and grammar themselves, some to the point where the students would correct the teacher.

I distinctly remember two english teachers of mine that had english as their second language. Not very helpful...

That being said, I had fantastic english teachers in years 11 and 12, which went a long way in improving my english skills.

At the moment I'm working full time as an mechanical design draftsman, whilst studying mechanical engineering.
Spelling and grammar is much more important in this feild than I anticipated, so I'm glad that I had such good teachers in those final 2 years of school.

I hate mobile phones... txt tlk ruins any piece of text that I read...

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

What is with those graduating from high school these days? Capitilisation, punctuation and grammar all seem to have gone out the window. Whilst looking at some of the threads in the General Topic area of this forum recently, I noted some threads where 50% of the posts contained no capital letters.

What the hell is going on? Don't teachers take marks off in English and other subjects for spelling, punctuation and grammar mistakes any more? Do the schools even teach the basics of English in the first place? Are high school graduates just lazy or do they think that it is cool or faster to leave out capital letters? Do they even realise that they come across as illiterate fools? I'm beginning to suspect that new keyboards do not have shift keys anymore. Have they been replaced with lol keys.

I'm particularly interested in responses from those that have recently finished high school, school teachers and from those that employ or teach people just out of high school.

I remember talking to my uncle on this subject over twenty years ago. He was a doctor and complained nurses couldn't spell because Latin was not taught in schools anymore. Without knowing the Latin origins of words education was incomplete he believed. He blamed poor teaches, who could hardly speak Latin themselves.

[Walkinshaw]

I think it is about time that we develop a new written language and move back to the times where only the elite and wealthy could read and write. It would make it so much easier to justify these high horses I see ridding around.

PS: Let’s blame the teachers; that seems like the in thing to do these days.

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I remember talking to my uncle on this subject over twenty years ago. He was a doctor and complained nurses couldn't spell because Latin was not taught in schools anymore. Without knowing the Latin origins of words education was incomplete he believed. He blamed poor teaches, who could hardly speak Latin themselves.

Actually they do teach Latin to year 7s at my school.
Too many teachers are forced to teach subjects they are not trained to teach and many are re-trainees from industry that are rushed through a 6 or 12 month course. Others are signed up because they are fluent in a community language.

[Miller]

Hay guyz hw r u 2day. I liek 2 spek lik dis cuz it maekz me c00l


Can't stand it, it drives me up the wall.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by XRchic

Jen, I agree, teachers, particularly in state schools, have a terrible time. The pressure must be enormous and some of the kids they have to deal with are so difficult.

They might now Jac but when my kids were in primary school about 20years ago (yeah, I'm an old phart!) the teachers then were using some wacky system from the USA (where else?.)

My son, then age 9 came home from an excursion to Canberra and showed me his project sheet. Lots of writing and pretty pictures but the word 'Canberra' was spelt wrong in three places. When I queried this his answer was " Oh our teacher said that spelling is not important just so long as we can communicate what we mean"

My reply to that went along the lines of "Stuff that, bring your spelling list home every night and we'll go through it"

Now he's a grown up (well almost) he's very gratefull that he listened to Dad and not the teacher.

Yes, it was a state school.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

Actually they do teach Latin to year 7s at my school.
Too many teachers are forced to teach subjects they are not trained to teach and many are re-trainees from industry that are rushed through a 6 or 12 month course. Others are signed up because they are fluent in a community language.

LOL my uncle would be delighted :Reverend:

I didn't make myself clear, I didn't believe the education system was going to "hell in a hand basket", because Latin was removed from the core curriculum.

I don't believe the education system is going to "hell in a hand basket" now.

The vast majority of students in Australia are educated in public schools.

When compared to other countries, Australian students always rate in the top few for literacy and numeracy.

The idea that standard of education are falling because of teachers in public schools is not supported by the facts.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Lol.

Now THAT is classy!!!

Why thankyou. Lucky you know how to spell. Otherwise I might have missed the compliment.

[1600GT]

me tinks mi edu-ma-cation tis waaaay good dood, coz i gottd it at skool proper like ay....











and yes, i'm joking....
my junior has just started primary school this year, so it will be interesting to see what has changed in the 20 or so years since i was in primary school myself.

20 years.... jeez, i'm getting old!

[Charliewool]

If we are to blame mobile phone SMS for this generation's poor spelling and grammar, then the lowly calculator must also cop the blame for a generation that have no idea of basic arithmetic!
Only the other day I confused the hell out of a young cashier, by handing over a $50 note plus $1.35c in coin for items totalling $21.35. I ended up just taking my coins back and accepting the change from $50 as it was all just WAY TOO hard for her to fathom!
Know what's missing in today's primary education?
Spelling and times table "championships"... Anyone remember them?
Oooops sorry, I forgot that sort of thing instills much frowned upon "competition" in the classroom which could have devastating self esteem problems in later years, doesn't it?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by charliewool

If we are to blame mobile phone SMS for this generation's poor spelling and grammar, then the lowly calculator must also cop the blame for a generation that have no idea of basic arithmetic!
Only the other day I confused the hell out of a young cashier, by handing over a $50 note plus $1.35c in coin for items totalling $21.35. I ended up just taking my coins back and accepting the change from $50 as it was all just WAY TOO hard for her to fathom!

Hehheh... been there and done that, or should that be, had that done to me
This could be why he/she is working as a checkout operator?

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by charliewool

If we are to blame mobile phone SMS for this generation's poor spelling and grammar, then the lowly calculator must also cop the blame for a generation that have no idea of basic arithmetic!
Only the other day I confused the hell out of a young cashier, by handing over a $50 note plus $1.35c in coin for items totalling $21.35. I ended up just taking my coins back and accepting the change from $50 as it was all just WAY TOO hard for her to fathom!
Know what's missing in today's primary education?
Spelling and times table "championships"... Anyone remember them?
Oooops sorry, I forgot that sort of thing instills much frowned upon "competition" in the classroom which could have devastating self esteem problems in later years, doesn't it?

Only the bottom 2% of the class turned into delinquents form the low self-esteem these challenges generated. With the population (numbers) of today that 2% would equate to over 200,000 more nutters than we had in our day so you can't be too careful. For me? well I just hated being picked LAST for everything.
She should have given you $30 change, right?

[xbgs351]

From what I have been reading so far it's looking to me as a combination of school policy as set by the state governments, teacher quality and student apathy.

There is no doubt that secondary schools have been dumbed down over the years in order to keep more children at school. The result of this has been more people educated to a lower level.

I got a pretty good example of this when I was doing first year Mechanical Engineering. My math’s lecturer was in his 70's, but was exceptionally good, for instance he had written my year 12 text books. One day in the second half of the year he presented us with a math’s question along the lines of what we were studying at the time, but far harder. After we all had, had a shot at it, he told us that it was a matriculation question back in the 30's.

When I did year 12 in 1991 in Victoria, I was caught in the transition between HSC and VCE. Half of my subjects were HSC and the other half was VCE. In comparison to HSC, VCE was a complete joke. VCE seemed to have been created to reward mediocrity and eliminate failure. The biggest joke was the S or N system. S meant Satisfactory and N meant Not Satisfactory. This system created a culture of doing the minimum needed in order to pass.

Even so, I have noticed a real decline in the quality of English used by recent school leavers over the last couple of years. Has the school system suffered a rapid decline in the last few years, or are school leavers that much more apathetic? There is a good chance that the school system has suffered a rapid decline in the last few years. The baby boomers schoolteachers are rapidly retiring and perhaps those that are replacing them are not up to the same standard. For a long time the marks required to get into teaching were very low and the degree is pretty easy. I remember when I was university; the teachers were considered a joke as a full time teaching degree had less hours than a part time engineering degree. In addition some engineering students were tutoring teachers in English of all things. That was scary as the joke "4 years ago I didn't know what an Engineer was and now I is one" is pretty close to the truth.

In regards to school policy, teaching of the rules of English was discarded before I went to school. This is something that really upsets me as whenever I talk with someone from Europe or Asia that speaks English as a second language, I am always amazed at how well they grasp the English language. I believe this is because they have been taught the rules behind the English language. Try learning a foreign language such as French without knowing the rules behind it and your sentences will come out back to front and all mixed up. Why don't we get taught our first language this way?

[Allen]

xbgs351... I searched for a picture of a nail being hit on the head, but couldn't find anything.

I agree 100% with everything said there.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

From what I have been reading so far it's looking to me as a combination of school policy as set by the state governments, teacher quality and student apathy.

Once again, the parents escape conviction. Am i to assume the parent resolves itself of all responsibility in the education of their child once that task is handed over to the state?

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Once again, the parents escape conviction. Am i to assume the parent resolves itself of all responsibility in the education of their child once that task is handed over to the state?

That's a good point, but are parents behaving that much differently to what they did in the past? Maybe they are. There are now far more families with both parents working and there are also far more single parents. Perhaps, the parents weren't taught all that well either?

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

That's a good point, but are parents behaving that much differently to what they did in the past? Maybe they are. There are now far more families with both parents working and there are also far more single parents. Perhaps, the parents weren't taught all that well either?

Well i look around and see plenty of parents that dont even look old enough to have finished school... so yeah, it kinda begs the question of what example they're going to be able to set??

I dont know if things have changed? Have they guys? Chime in.

Ive read a lot of comments on here "if i hear my son/daughter say such-and-such, i correct them"... certainly doesnt sound too different from when i was a kid... lol, maybe my old man wasnt quite as polite as that, but intention seems the same.

Is it a result of the world we live in? I know when i was at primary school (not THAt long ago... 15 years maybe), not many people could afford computers or consoles. PayTV didnt exist. "Playstation?? I assume that's some sort of spacecraft???" As a result, kids used to read books... and lots of them. Weekly trip to the public library on top of what was being read at school.

Do people sign there kids up at local libraries anymore?? I honestly dont know.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Well i look around and see plenty of parents that dont even look old enough to have finished school... so yeah, it kinda begs the question of what example they're going to be able to set??

I dont know if things have changed? Have they guys? Chime in.

As a result, kids used to read books... and lots of them. Weekly trip to the public library on top of what was being read at school.

Do people sign there kids up at local libraries anymore?? I honestly dont know.

Where's that pic of the nail on the head (as suggested byfairlane_ghia)..
Kids do NOT read unless it's forced upon them!
Enid Blyton.. Secret Seven, Famous Five, etc.. Loved em all when I was a "tacker"
I KNOW.. Very blase.. But these were SO basically instrumental in sentence formation, grammar, & spelling at early ages!...
Forgot to add.. And we ENJOYED reading.. It kept our attention span! It was basic, grassroots stuff.
It WASN'T computer generated tripe where the only skills attained are warp speed typing & the ability to seek out and destroy!
(believe me, I know... I have a 17yr old who, I'm convinced is the next terminator!)

[GK]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Know what's missing in today's primary education?
Spelling and times table "championships"... Anyone remember them?
Oooops sorry, I forgot that sort of thing instills much frowned upon "competition" in the classroom which could have devastating self esteem problems in later years, doesn't it?

Used to hold them in my class lots. The kids were chosen to compete against each other by me, and I tried to match up people with similar abilities to give them a real chance at winning. There were some real great rivalries in that class. Great memories!

GK

[GK]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

From what I have been reading so far it's looking to me as a combination of school policy as set by the state governments, teacher quality and student apathy.

There is no doubt that secondary schools have been dumbed down over the years in order to keep more children at school. The result of this has been more people educated to a lower level.

I got a pretty good example of this when I was doing first year Mechanical Engineering. My math’s lecturer was in his 70's, but was exceptionally good, for instance he had written my year 12 text books. One day in the second half of the year he presented us with a math’s question along the lines of what we were studying at the time, but far harder. After we all had, had a shot at it, he told us that it was a matriculation question back in the 30's.

When I did year 12 in 1991 in Victoria, I was caught in the transition between HSC and VCE. Half of my subjects were HSC and the other half was VCE. In comparison to HSC, VCE was a complete joke. VCE seemed to have been created to reward mediocrity and eliminate failure. The biggest joke was the S or N system. S meant Satisfactory and N meant Not Satisfactory. This system created a culture of doing the minimum needed in order to pass.

Even so, I have noticed a real decline in the quality of English used by recent school leavers over the last couple of years. Has the school system suffered a rapid decline in the last few years, or are school leavers that much more apathetic? There is a good chance that the school system has suffered a rapid decline in the last few years. The baby boomers schoolteachers are rapidly retiring and perhaps those that are replacing them are not up to the same standard. For a long time the marks required to get into teaching were very low and the degree is pretty easy. I remember when I was university; the teachers were considered a joke as a full time teaching degree had less hours than a part time engineering degree. In addition some engineering students were tutoring teachers in English of all things. That was scary as the joke "4 years ago I didn't know what an Engineer was and now I is one" is pretty close to the truth.

In regards to school policy, teaching of the rules of English was discarded before I went to school. This is something that really upsets me as whenever I talk with someone from Europe or Asia that speaks English as a second language, I am always amazed at how well they grasp the English language. I believe this is because they have been taught the rules behind the English language. Try learning a foreign language such as French without knowing the rules behind it and your sentences will come out back to front and all mixed up. Why don't we get taught our first language this way?

Many, many excellent points made in this post.

GK

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Where's that pic of the nail on the head (as suggested byfairlane_ghia)..
Kids do NOT read unless it's forced upon them!
Enid Blyton.. Secret Seven, Famous Five, etc.. Loved em all when I was a "tacker"
I KNOW.. Very blase.. But these were SO basically instrumental in sentence formation, grammar, & spelling at early ages!...

I played Atari 2600 and I read Secret Seven!

At my secondary school which was private, we had to read books. We had one subject per week called library that was basically devoted to reading. I recall my teacher being gobsmacked when I read Chaucer's Cantebury Tales. Compulsory reading ruined my appreciation of books, making reading feel like a chore. Year 12 book reviews about books that I would still prefer to burn than read put me off books even more. I didn't regain the passion for reading until my early 20's. Last Christmas I even read a 1000 page book!

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by charliewool

Know what's missing in today's primary education?
Spelling and times table "championships"... Anyone remember them?
Oooops sorry, I forgot that sort of thing instills much frowned upon "competition" in the classroom which could have devastating self esteem problems in later years, doesn't it?

I rememeber disliking the tables championships. I was never any good at learning by rote, and I used to (and still do) work out the time tables in my head. Sure it may be slower, but my 17 times tables aren't much slower than my 12 times tables.

[andrewts]

Well, I am 15 and I am doing the HSC, I am in year 11, and as far as English goes, It's hard to say. It is the only compulsory course that we have to do, and I have to say, spelling, punctuation and grammar are not really covered, as we do more text analysis and composition this, and technique that...

I at least try and make an effort when writing my posts. What is the point of posting if nobody is going to be able to read it? That said, nobody is perfect, and it is still possible for me to have made a mistake here and there, but don't we all?

[Charliewool]

xbgs351.. YOU started this thread, and I SO agree that it's a dilema! What's YOUR solution?
I see the dilema being an indication of technology's evolution having accelerated way faster than the average "Joe Blow's" ability to handle it all.
Similar to the "rich get richer" and "poor get poorer".
Only, with the technology scenario, we are looking at 2 distinct classes of people.. Those with superior intelligence & ability Vs. those with average interlect and capabilities.
The gap has ever widened between the rich Vs poor... Hasn't it?
I see the same happening with education.
Where as once it was a reasonably even "playing field" for all at school, now it's those that show ability that are nutured.. The others.. "Who cares"! Scrapheap!

[Dazza XLT]

Online Spell Checker- http://www.spellcheck.net/
Either check a word, or up to 20,000 characters.

Cheers

Darran