The drug "Ice"

[buggerlugs]

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/hea...ae09e50ebbd7d7

[buggerlugs]

http://www.news.com.au/national/crim...5128cf3e33e93c

Not for the faint hearted.............

[ford71V8]

jesus thats out of control.

25 years hey? We'll see.

[superyob]

Drug use should not be a mitigating factor in sentencing this animal...

[bathurst-racer]

I see and deal with people who use ICE nearly every day at work.
I take them into court after they have been charged with all manner of offences including robbery, assault and possession. Some of these people have progressed from the average loser crim to someone who has lost their soul. No longer are they the habitual offender who you can chat with, build a rapport with and have them so they are calm and compliant. Instead they are now verbally and physically abusive, irrational and without any ability to understand what is going on around them. Even when they have somewhat withdrawn from the drug most of our frequent flyers have noticeably deteriorated mentally and physically.
I will probably draw fire for this comment.... there is no rehabilitation for these addicts. No program exists which can restore the brain damage or the physical changes which have happened. It wasn't that long ago that I had a conversation with a magistrate who was utterly unaware of the changes in the criminal population due to ICE addiction and the misery it is causing in society. If someone in his position is blind to what is going on what hope do we have of dealing with the crime and misery we are talking about in this thread.
It could be argued that I see the worst of the addicts but I don't believe that's true. The ones still out there with the access to money which feeds their habit are far more dangerous than those who have crashed and burnt then ended up in a gaol cell.

These drug addicts and not just those on ICE are a cancer in our society. I'm not talking about the nuisance of having your possessions stolen or your tax dollars being wasted on oxygen thieves who have no value to society. I'm talking about those who commit violent crimes which hurt or kill innocent people. And don't think I'm only taking a hard line with other peoples family members, I have a brother who fits the above criteria very well.

ICE is a problem that will affect everyone. The growing number of addicts is a threat to everybody especially those in the frontline of law enforcement and medical personnel. Can we afford to incarcerate them, treat them with ineffective therapies or compensate the victims of their crimes ?
The answer is no and I despair at the thought of the policies that our governments will come up with to cope with the approaching crisis.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by bathurst-racer

I see and deal with people who use ICE nearly every day at work.
I take them into court after they have been charged with all manner of offences including robbery, assault and possession. Some of these people have progressed from the average loser crim to someone who has lost their soul. No longer are they the habitual offender who you can chat with, build a rapport with and have them so they are calm and compliant. Instead they are now verbally and physically abusive, irrational and without any ability to understand what is going on around them. Even when they have somewhat withdrawn from the drug most of our frequent flyers have noticeably deteriorated mentally and physically.
I will probably draw fire for this comment.... there is no rehabilitation for these addicts. No program exists which can restore the brain damage or the physical changes which have happened. It wasn't that long ago that I had a conversation with a magistrate who was utterly unaware of the changes in the criminal population due to ICE addiction and the misery it is causing in society. If someone in his position is blind to what is going on what hope do we have of dealing with the crime and misery we are talking about in this thread.
It could be argued that I see the worst of the addicts but I don't believe that's true. The ones still out there with the access to money which feeds their habit are far more dangerous than those who have crashed and burnt then ended up in a gaol cell.

These drug addicts and not just those on ICE are a cancer in our society. I'm not talking about the nuisance of having your possessions stolen or your tax dollars being wasted on oxygen thieves who have no value to society. I'm talking about those who commit violent crimes which hurt or kill innocent people. And don't think I'm only taking a hard line with other peoples family members, I have a brother who fits the above criteria very well.

ICE is a problem that will affect everyone. The growing number of addicts is a threat to everybody especially those in the frontline of law enforcement and medical personnel. Can we afford to incarcerate them, treat them with ineffective therapies or compensate the victims of their crimes ?
The answer is no and I despair at the thought of the policies that our governments will come up with to cope with the approaching crisis.

Pretty much sums it up..

A big part of the problem is that Magistrates do not reside in the areas they preside over, especially in country regions.

Often the Magistrate will travel into town for the day and then return to his mansion in some privileged area, completely unaware of the negative impact his soft touch sentencing has on the local police who reside in the town and are part of the community and the community itself left behind.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by bathurst-racer View Post
I see and deal with people who use ICE nearly every day at work.
I take them into court after they have been charged with all manner of offences including robbery, assault and possession. Some of these people have progressed from the average loser crim to someone who has lost their soul. No longer are they the habitual offender who you can chat with, build a rapport with and have them so they are calm and compliant. Instead they are now verbally and physically abusive, irrational and without any ability to understand what is going on around them. Even when they have somewhat withdrawn from the drug most of our frequent flyers have noticeably deteriorated mentally and physically.
I will probably draw fire for this comment.... there is no rehabilitation for these addicts. No program exists which can restore the brain damage or the physical changes which have happened. It wasn't that long ago that I had a conversation with a magistrate who was utterly unaware of the changes in the criminal population due to ICE addiction and the misery it is causing in society. If someone in his position is blind to what is going on what hope do we have of dealing with the crime and misery we are talking about in this thread.
It could be argued that I see the worst of the addicts but I don't believe that's true. The ones still out there with the access to money which feeds their habit are far more dangerous than those who have crashed and burnt then ended up in a gaol cell.

These drug addicts and not just those on ICE are a cancer in our society. I'm not talking about the nuisance of having your possessions stolen or your tax dollars being wasted on oxygen thieves who have no value to society. I'm talking about those who commit violent crimes which hurt or kill innocent people. And don't think I'm only taking a hard line with other peoples family members, I have a brother who fits the above criteria very well.

ICE is a problem that will affect everyone. The growing number of addicts is a threat to everybody especially those in the frontline of law enforcement and medical personnel. Can we afford to incarcerate them, treat them with ineffective therapies or compensate the victims of their crimes ?
The answer is no and I despair at the thought of the policies that our governments will come up with to cope with the approaching crisis.

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Pretty much sums it up..

A big part of the problem is that Magistrates do not reside in the areas they preside over, especially in country regions.

Often the Magistrate will travel into town for the day and then return to his mansion in some privileged area, completely unaware of the negative impact his soft touch sentencing has on the local police who reside in the town and are part of the community and the community itself left behind.

i couldn't agree more in the most part, I don't have a lot to do with this drug, I've delt with the odd person who is affected by it but I've been lucky so far.

the above to posts differ slightly in that one is saying the worst could well be those that haven't crashed yet and have access to money (Privileged area's)

and another is talking about smaller country communities, the scary ones are the ones in smaller communities but access to money as each person in a small community equates to a larger percentage of the community so, the more wealthy country addict can potentially do a lot more damage to the community

I hope that makes sense? I cant think of a clearer way to say it

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

I think you slightly missed my point, there are not many wealthy farmers that get on the ICE, most like a can of bundy at the local pub or show.

Most ICE in smaller Country Towns (100-1500 person size) is used and distributed by houso style grubs that don't work. They often deal to feed their habit and they move around between towns and states.

Problem is these places will have small police stations may be 1-10 Cops, and they generally have Court once a month, the magistrate will travel into town for the day, completely unaware of the local issues, and what people in town have to deal with and put up with from local grubs, they then hand out soft sentences and be back on the road home before dark.

Leaving local cops to deal with the fall out and dealing with the same grubs again only days later, and the local community feels let down by the law, by the police and the system in general when their stuff gets stolen again, their house gets broken into, their car gets stolen etc etc.

[mex351]

And I'm sure it's been said and ignored and poor drugo's need help but it comes back to peoples choices. No one holds a gun to your head and say take this or I'll pull the trigger.

Real people deal with there issues like adults without drugs. But you only hear about the drugo's due to do gooders and the drugo's crime spree's. No one needs to take drugs they choose to...the end.

[bathurst-racer]

I know what I meant but didn't explain it very well. Those addicts who have access to money aren't necessarily from affluent areas. Access to money means they have welfare or are out there stealing or dealing. Some may have jobs or other means which all adds up to having cash to spend on drugs. Its not uncommon to find an addict who has assaulted and intimidated friends and family into handing over money or their possessions to feed the addicts want for drugs. Grandparents are a vulnerable target for addicts to manipulate and threaten in the constant demand for their drugs.

The magistrates who work in the smaller rural towns don't always live in flash houses remote from their communities. Those courts which sit only every few weeks are on a circuit and the magistrate will come from a larger centre within a few hundred kilometres of the small town. I think the big problem they have is the rapid rise of ICE fuelled crime which has caught society in general unprepared. Until recently it has been those on the front line, Police, Court and Gaol staff and hospital staff who have been left to deal with this dirty war while upper management have hid their heads in the sand. It has taken the shooting of a police officer and a security guard in an emergency ward at a major Sydney hospital to get the brief attention of the media.
If anyone here is interested in why and how the emergency services workers are doing stuff while being hamstrung by policy by all means PM or email me.

I hope this makes a bit of sense Yeti.

[pottery beige]

simplistic approach

nice work

[castellan]

Originally Posted by bathurst-racer

I know what I meant but didn't explain it very well. Those addicts who have access to money aren't necessarily from affluent areas. Access to money means they have welfare or are out there stealing or dealing. Some may have jobs or other means which all adds up to having cash to spend on drugs. Its not uncommon to find an addict who has assaulted and intimidated friends and family into handing over money or their possessions to feed the addicts want for drugs. Grandparents are a vulnerable target for addicts to manipulate and threaten in the constant demand for their drugs.

The magistrates who work in the smaller rural towns don't always live in flash houses remote from their communities. Those courts which sit only every few weeks are on a circuit and the magistrate will come from a larger centre within a few hundred kilometres of the small town. I think the big problem they have is the rapid rise of ICE fuelled crime which has caught society in general unprepared. Until recently it has been those on the front line, Police, Court and Gaol staff and hospital staff who have been left to deal with this dirty war while upper management have hid their heads in the sand. It has taken the shooting of a police officer and a security guard in an emergency ward at a major Sydney hospital to get the brief attention of the media.
If anyone here is interested in why and how the emergency services workers are doing stuff while being hamstrung by policy by all means PM or email me.

I hope this makes a bit of sense Yeti.

The biggest problem is what is called Political Correctness as it is this pox that's bastardising every foundation that our nation was built on, it's a cancer that undermines everything that is truly true or correct, most people have been brainwashed into such a depraved position into accepting such filthy rubbish and if you only knew that PC was what the Nazis and Communist used to brainwash the people with, so as to control them.
Just our PC is fabian type that takes it's time plotting out it's ends to make people who do not swallow their socialist line an enemy of the State.

Mainly it's got to do with the PC magistrates who live in a bubble is what you are on about.
We had a bloke that could of sorted out most of this type of moronic magistrates in QLD but he was not PC because had too much common sense and was a cop that worked his way up the ranks to the position of the top job, but the PC ding bats hated his guts and flew off the handle because he was not one of them stuck up toffs who look down on people like him who truly understands the reality of all walks of life and does not live in a bubble devoid of reality.

[Maka]

Once this problem is seen in the right context maybe the army will be sent in to clean it up & keep it clean.
Its rotting the country from inside out Imo..

cheer's, Maka

[maat1985]

I could not agree more with how bad ice is and how bad ice can destroy peoples lives and how much it changes someone. But people who say that there is no rehabilitation can go get ********* and learn what they are talking about.
I myself am an addict and have been clean for 10years.
I know others who have done the same thing.
I also know people who are totally screwed up.
But my point is if a person wants to get clean they cam and will.....

[b0son]

Two things...

1. Accountability. Where magistrates/judges are concerned, there is none. Time and again, serious crimes are committed by repeat offenders, people who were already on bail, etc. We need a three strikes policy - if someone you let back on the streets offends, after the third instance, you're gone. Of course, this means judges are less likely to grant bail to repeat offenders, but those in the habit of hurting others probably don't deserve understanding, let alone leniency.

2. My statement above inevitably will see more pressure put on the jail system. There is an obvious solution. Prisoners WORK for their food/shelter, make the prison system essentially self-funding. If they choose to opt out of working, we let them die. We manage it medically, but at such point where they're beyond help, we euthanize them. This may seem cruel, but at the end of the day, these are people who have opted out of being good members of society, we really need to stop guilt-tripping ourselves over people who have no qualms doing harm to us.

[maat1985]

It is not that simple... depends on the crime committed as to the punishment not the motivation behind it. Someo e who steals deserve to go to jail regardless of drug use or not. Someone who rapes ir kills deserves to be killed regardless of drug use or not.
It is not a matter of giving people punishment based on their drug problems it is punnishing people based on the crimes they commit.
Drug use by someone who commits no crime deserves medical and pshycological help.
A person who has a life of crime deserves appropritae punishment regardless of drug use.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by b0son

Two things...

1. Accountability. Where magistrates/judges are concerned, there is none. Time and again, serious crimes are committed by repeat offenders, people who were already on bail, etc. We need a three strikes policy - if someone you let back on the streets offends, after the third instance, you're gone. Of course, this means judges are less likely to grant bail to repeat offenders, but those in the habit of hurting others probably don't deserve understanding, let alone leniency.

2. My statement above inevitably will see more pressure put on the jail system. There is an obvious solution. Prisoners WORK for their food/shelter, make the prison system essentially self-funding. If they choose to opt out of working, we let them die. We manage it medically, but at such point where they're beyond help, we euthanize them. This may seem cruel, but at the end of the day, these are people who have opted out of being good members of society, we really need to stop guilt-tripping ourselves over people who have no qualms doing harm to us.

Really?
Will you pull the trigger? Better think about that before replying....

Hate the drug...not the person.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Really?
Will you pull the trigger?

It would be their choice whether they die or not. I see no issue with making people in jail work for it. I don't get anything for free, why should they?

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by b0son

It would be their choice whether they die or not. I see no issue with making people in jail work for it. I don't get anything for free, why should they?

Punishment is for the victim not the perpetrator.

Punishment will not help a drug addict/alcoholic one iota.

I don't believe we will get anywhere with this until society starts treating addiction as it really is. A medical problem. That desperately needs resources thrown at it.

[b0son]

And how many chances should someone get to get themselves clean?

We know what ice does to us, we know it leads to a propensity to harm. If we choose to use it anyway, surely the responsibility for our actions lies with us?

[bathurst-racer]

Originally Posted by maat1985

I could not agree more with how bad ice is and how bad ice can destroy peoples lives and how much it changes someone. But people who say that there is no rehabilitation can go get ********* and learn what they are talking about.
I myself am an addict and have been clean for 10years.
I know others who have done the same thing.
I also know people who are totally screwed up.
But my point is if a person wants to get clean they cam and will.....

I have seen alcoholics and heroin addicts clean themselves up.
How can an addict repair their brain damage caused by abusing ice ?
What type of rehabilitation program is offered to counter the physical damage they have inflicted on their brains ?
Who can effectively address the issues which drove the ice addict to destroy their own ĺife and the lives of those around them.
I will read your reply with interest.

[mex351]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Really?
Will you pull the trigger? Better think about that before replying....

Hate the drug...not the person.

The person chose the drug...not the drug chose the person.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Maka

Once this problem is seen in the right context maybe the army will be sent in to clean it up & keep it clean.
Its rotting the country from inside out Imo..

cheer's, Maka

Fact is people are lost that take drugs or drink grog too much.

As a nation we will only reap what we sow.

Our education system is a joke that's run by fools and that's a fact, as the proof is in the pudding.

Our religious system is a joke that's run by fools and that's a fact, as the proof is in the pudding.

There is a way of cleaning it up, so one would think one starts at the foundations and that's the problem nowadays, is that there is no true foundations, as most is just off with the pixies stuff, whims wants and just degenerate trendy dribble by simpletons living in some sort of fairy land state just looking to others for there pixie approval.

If you grab someone and point out the obvious problem with them, you are then the one who is the monster, by all the trendy little PC twerps that just can't handle reality and are so deeply offended by such reality.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by b0son

And how many chances should someone get to get themselves clean?

We know what ice does to us, we know it leads to a propensity to harm. If we choose to use it anyway, surely the responsibility for our actions lies with us?

As many as it takes.

We all have heard, it's one hell of an addictive drug.

What's the upside to just chucking them out on the street time after time?
Keeping people in gaol costs a lot of money, surely we are better off spending that money on their health?
And no matter what you might wish, forcing people to work in prison making things for profit will not work for various reasons.

Who knows what they are thinking when they take it. It stumps me.
However I have also made mistakes in my life, as has everyone.

I'm no Christian but I believe there's a saying in the bible that goes along the lines of "those without sin, cast the first stone."

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Punishment is for the victim not the perpetrator.

Raally the victim needs punishing?? I would have thought getting robbed, getting assaulted, getting your **** stolen would be more punishment than any victim deserves

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Punishment will not help a drug addict/alcoholic one iota.

So what sould we do?? Give them a cuddle?? May be I can donate them my TV or some of my money I worked for so they can have an easier life

PS we are not talking about alcoholics who abuse a legally available drug, we are talking about Ice junkies who part take in criminal activity on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

I don't believe we will get anywhere with this until society starts treating addiction as it really is. A medical problem.

A medical problem?? Where did that tripe come from?? Being a junkie grub piece of **** is not a medical problem, it's a life choice made by selfish junkie grubs with no consideration for others.

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

That desperately needs resources thrown at it.

Oh, yeah great idea, waste more of my hard earned tax $$ on these waste of space sub human

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Raally the victim needs punishing?? I would have thought getting robbed, getting assaulted, getting your **** stolen would be more punishment than any victim deserves

Seriously?

Try reading it again....with a little thought.

Punishment helps victims by gaining justice/revenge in their eyes.


Sending drug users to gaol will certainly get them an education though.
Do you really want that to cope with too?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

And no matter what you might wish, forcing people to work in prison making things for profit will not work for various reasons.

It works out of prison.

Anyone who works in a government-regulated industry knows all about cost-recovery ... there are a raft of operating costs including licencing and regulatory fees that require those operating in said industry to pay for the administration of said industry. Never mind the fact that they generate income taxes by employing its workers, as well as paying taxes on the profits they generate.

If the law-abiding productive members of society are expected to pay their way, the non-law-abiding bloody well should too.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by b0son

It works out of prison.

Anyone who works in a government-regulated industry knows all about cost-recovery ... there are a raft of operating costs including licencing and regulatory fees that require those operating in said industry to pay for the administration of said industry. Never mind the fact that they generate income taxes by employing its workers, as well as paying taxes on the profits they generate.

If the law-abiding productive members of society are expected to pay their way, the non-law-abiding bloody well should too.

4

If only it were so simple. There are international laws preventing it for starters. Having people work for no reimbursement is slavery. It was outlawed for very good reasons.

Aren't we better off directing existing resources to making these people better and then productive?

I totally get why people don't like addicts and are happy for them to be stomped on, however we've been doing that for the last 80 years and it has got us exactly where?

Time to think outside the square and tackle addiction.

I just can't see any upside to putting drug users into gaol...over and over and over.

[gossy]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

4


Time to think outside the square and tackle addiction.

I just can't see any upside to putting drug users into gaol, or even worse as mentioned by others.

.....but, how about our so called Justice System makes them think twice before they even contemplate the thought?

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

4

If only it were so simple. There are international laws preventing it for starters. Having people work for no reimbursement is slavery. It was outlawed for very good reasons.

Who said they are working for no reimbursement??

They are working to pay their way, something most have never done.

I have paid my way since I was 15 years old, now nearly 50 I still pay my way by working a full time job, and I have done so since being 15, and plan to do so for the rest of my life.

Why should these people be any different?? What makes them so special that exempts them from having a job and going to work?? Why are they living and eating for free spending their life being a drain on the system??

They tie up law enforcement, welfare, government agencies, tax monies, etc etc without ever contributing to society.

Making them work is not slavery, people paying and funding their own existence is not slavery, it's just not being an oxygen thief.