60 minutes tonight on young drivers.

[Swordsman88]

I didn't have too much problem with the story really, though it made some spurious points. Like all P platers should be in modern cars, yeah fair enough but very impractical really.

As many on here have noted, the problem is attitude. I would say young drivers have such high crash rates because of attitude, lack of skills in controlling a car, experience in the roads RE traffic and judgement.

Now increasing the driving age might help the first one, from a purely theoretical 'brain development' standpoint but the last two won't do jack unless you are trained. Defensive driving combined with lessons on car control (so you can realise what it means to be truly out of control and how easilly it can happen) are what helps this, as well as sage advice by more experienced drivers.

Finally, if it age that is such a factor why is it you can fly an aircraft solo at the age of 16 in australia. I know several people that went solo by age 18 in light aircraft, and have seen these people deal with problems in the air calmy and safely. You may not realise that when you take a flight with qantas the first officer on your flight (controlling the aircraft) might be as young as 21!!! Its about maturity and skills, combined with attitude. I know 25 year old drivers i trust less than my teen sister on P plates!!!

[Daymoe]

Now taking donations for buying a new car.....

Anyone?

Exactly, unless you give me the cash or the car itself, i'll drive it happily and be grateful. (Even though i'll have about $15-$17K of my own hard earned saved up) otherwise, screw you unless you donate the money and or the car then I can buy what ever the hell I want with MY money. Whether that be 17,000 $1 hookers or a 2009 Ford Fiesta or 1990 Nissan 300ZX.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you are saying that you have owned 20 plus dangerous piles of junk instead of one good car?

Why did you buy 20, did they keep breaking down and coild not be repaired or did you crash them all?

Thanks for the laugh Flappist.

[AUIIForte]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Finally, if it age that is such a factor why is it you can fly an aircraft solo at the age of 16 in australia. I know several people that went solo by age 18 in light aircraft, and have seen these people deal with problems in the air calmy and safely. You may not realise that when you take a flight with qantas the first officer on your flight (controlling the aircraft) might be as young as 21!!! Its about maturity and skills, combined with attitude. I know 25 year old drivers i trust less than my teen sister on P plates!!!

Like I have stated before (with some no sense replies by some), age does not count as a factor in anything.

Your example is really good. Flying a plane, solo, at the age of 16 says one thing: IMENSE TRAINING! (which new drivers HUGELY lack. I will even admit, all the training I got before driving was a written test. After that, I drove like a grandma with the person who would promote me to P's, and I passed. No real training at all)

Training is the key to responsibility. And an answer to the road fatalities.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I didn't have too much problem with the story really, though it made some spurious points. Like all P platers should be in modern cars, yeah fair enough but very impractical really.

As many on here have noted, the problem is attitude. I would say young drivers have such high crash rates because of attitude, lack of skills in controlling a car, experience in the roads RE traffic and judgement.

Now increasing the driving age might help the first one, from a purely theoretical 'brain development' standpoint but the last two won't do jack unless you are trained. Defensive driving combined with lessons on car control (so you can realise what it means to be truly out of control and how easilly it can happen) are what helps this, as well as sage advice by more experienced drivers.

Finally, if it age that is such a factor why is it you can fly an aircraft solo at the age of 16 in australia. I know several people that went solo by age 18 in light aircraft, and have seen these people deal with problems in the air calmy and safely. You may not realise that when you take a flight with qantas the first officer on your flight (controlling the aircraft) might be as young as 21!!! Its about maturity and skills, combined with attitude. I know 25 year old drivers i trust less than my teen sister on P plates!!!

Because when you get a pilot's license at 16 you have done a huge amount of hands on training and you are restricted to daytime, no cloud, fixed gear, fixed pitch, less than 5700kg etc etc.

The car equivalent would be 1000cc, automatic trans, daytime, no rain/snow etc.

These simple aircraft do not go very fast or far. If you want to upgrade your license you just do more training and once you get to twins you are actually endorsed on each type and each engine.

In car terms this would means if you wanted to drive any falcon you would need to do a driving test in an auto, a manual, a N/A, a turbo and then a V8, a sedan, a Ute and a station wagon.

You would also need to reset you license every 2 years, caould not do ANY mods or maintenence on your car and must have a roadworthy every 100 hours (6,000km) or 12 months. Once your car has done a specific amout of driving it must be completly rebuilt before you can drive it again and the final rule.

You can only ever lose your license once........THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE.

Are you sure you want to do this????

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Now taking donations for buying a new car.....

Anyone?

Exactly, unless you give me the cash or the car itself, i'll drive it happily and be grateful. (Even though i'll have about $15-$17K of my own hard earned saved up) otherwise, screw you unless you donate the money and or the car then I can buy what ever the hell I want with MY money. Whether that be 17,000 $1 hookers or a 2009 Ford Fiesta or 1990 Nissan 300ZX.

Yes you can buy what you like and drive it anywhere you want to EXCEPT public roads in Australia.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by AUIIForte

Training is the key to responsibility.

A MATURE attitude is the key to driving responsibility.... POOR Driver ATTITUDE is the problem, you claim age plays no part in accident and road death rates yet how do you explain the fact that drivers aged between 18 and 25 are more than twice as likely to be involved in an accident or fatality?
You can train someone all you like but if they can't resist the temptation to muck up in a car the trainings pointless.
We could all drive around in paper mache cars if everyone drove sensibly and obeyed the road laws. The fact is it will never happen, safer cars will save lives, but they won't make young drivers better drivers.
You can't train someone to be mature, maturity comes with age and experience (for most of us).
Putting young inexperienced "immature" drivers in safer restricted vehicles reduces this temptation and severity of the problem, and that in itself is a good thing, because as we get constantly reminded on these forums, young drivers know everything and are invincible.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes you can buy what you like and drive it anywhere you want to EXCEPT public roads in Australia.

Who is going to stop me? My town has a police station with no cops, a bunch of old people and druggos. You'll have to wait for natural selection first buddy.

Anyway, I'm 17 and i drive at 10-20km/h under the speed limit and always listen to my Dad and do what ever he tells me to.

[AUIIForte]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

A MATURE attitude is the key to driving responsibility.... POOR Driver ATTITUDE is the problem, you claim age plays no part in accident and road death rates yet how do you explain the fact that drivers aged between 18 and 25 are more than twice as likely to be involved in an accident or fatality?
You can train someone all you like but if they can't resist the temptation to muck up in a car the trainings pointless.
We could all drive around in paper mache cars if everyone drove sensibly and obeyed the road laws. The fact is it will never happen, safer cars will save lives, but they won't make young drivers better drivers.
You can't train someone to be mature, maturity comes with age and experience (for most of us).
Putting young inexperienced drivers in safer restricted vehicles reduces this temptation and severity of the problem, and that in itself is a good thing.

If you read what 'flappist' wrote, you would understand. I wrote a very general summarization. 'flappist' expanded on it and came up with one of the greatest ideas ever to combat road fatalities. Next time, be a bit more polite. I am not here to offend anybody, I don't know about you though.

But to respond to your statement "You can't train someone to be mature". Oh boy, you sure can.

And once again, don't believe everything the media tells you (P platers; the cause of the most crashes in Australia).

[braddyxe51]

Originally Posted by flappist

So you are saying that you have owned 20 plus dangerous piles of junk instead of one good car?

Why did you buy 20, did they keep breaking down and coild not be repaired or did you crash them all?

Rust in most of them so could not pass inspection.
But ya most were piles of crap and unroadworthy but I think made me a better driver. Only one crash in 12 years and found other person in wrong both cars still drivable. I still have 7 of them

[SpoolMan]

I am sure most of you have seen this, but for the few that haven't its a another solution.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/drive-lif...145323845.html

[snappy]

Originally Posted by flappist

What big hills? This is Australia not New Zealand.

The power will not be a problem, these cars would be small and light. They would not be able to tow trailers and would have a max payload including pax of about 400kg.

One of the MAJOR advantages these cars will have is that in order to "go fast" you will actually have to learn how to drive. Too many are "superdrivers" because they have a gazillion rwkws and therefore do not have to actually judge distances, grades or oncoming traffic, they just stand on the go pedal if they think they will no make it.

How many on here have won a "race" against a more powerful car by outdriving the other guy?

Not a lot I suspect, the common thread on here is "I got blown away by a XXXX, what mods do I need to do to get to YYYY rwkw so I can win?

be generous i used to drive my missus excel 1.6l and that thing wouldn't get to the top of the hills doing 100kph on the calder hwy unless you rev the absolute guts out of it even then it struggled.
Anyway i like your idea . dont need to sell it to me

[Daymoe]

Problem is, who is game enough to enforce Flappist's rules? No one, they're too busy doing a half-arsed bandaid approach. Anyway, a P-plater with .01% of a brain will just buy a $1000 bomb and then save up until 22 comes, then you'll see in the news that fully licenced drivers are killing themselves in high powered cars.

I can see it now, new law coming in that you cannot drive a high powered car untill you turn 75.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Who is going to stop me? My town has a police station with no cops, a bunch of old people and druggos. You'll have to wait for natural selection first buddy.

Anyway, I'm 17 and i drive at 10-20km/h under the speed limit and always listen to my Dad and do what ever he tells me to.

Hmmm,,,,

Your eloquent logic has convinced me that you do indeed have the mature and sensible attitude necessary to control a high performance motor vehicle in a public situation.

Your first name isn't Craig and you weren't recently on a TV show were you?

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by flappist

Because when you get a pilot's license at 16 you have done a huge amount of hands on training and you are restricted to daytime, no cloud, fixed gear, fixed pitch, less than 5700kg etc etc.

The car equivalent would be 1000cc, automatic trans, daytime, no rain/snow etc.

These simple aircraft do not go very fast or far. If you want to upgrade your license you just do more training and once you get to twins you are actually endorsed on each type and each engine.

In car terms this would means if you wanted to drive any falcon you would need to do a driving test in an auto, a manual, a N/A, a turbo and then a V8, a sedan, a Ute and a station wagon.

You would also need to reset you license every 2 years, caould not do ANY mods or maintenence on your car and must have a roadworthy every 100 hours (6,000km) or 12 months. Once your car has done a specific amout of driving it must be completly rebuilt before you can drive it again and the final rule.

You can only ever lose your license once........THERE IS NO SECOND CHANCE.

Are you sure you want to do this????

No, i don't think anyone wants to do this. But i am sure we could take on board alot more of the aviation-based safety mantra. THere was a time when aviation didn't have the rigorous set up it does now, and it had a pretty woeful safety record too....conidence?? I don't think so.

Your response to my post might be true, but it far from helpful and wasn't really what i was implying. Yes there is alot of training involved in getting that license, and it is very restricted on what you can fly/who. Check the government policies and this is exactly what is happening (p plate limits on perf cars, no. occupants etc.)

My point was very simple, age is not the primary factor. Attitude is, and that affects a range of age groups. P plates need help with this, not ridicule.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by flappist

Hmmm,,,,

Your eloquent logic has convinced me that you do indeed have the mature and sensible attitude necessary to control a high performance motor vehicle in a public situation.

Your first name isn't Craig and you weren't recently on a TV show were you?

No but that is my best mate

[braddyxe51]

dam missed it to busy reading this thread

[AUIIForte]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Problem is, who is game enough to enforce Flappist's rules? No one, they're too busy doing a half-arsed bandaid approach. Anyway, a P-plater with .01% of a brain will just buy a $1000 bomb and then save up until 22 comes, then you'll see in the news that fully licenced drivers are killing themselves in high powered cars.

I can see it now, new law coming in that you cannot drive a high powered car untill you turn 75.

You're right, but if it did come into legislation, what do you think it would do to the road death toll? I think it would only benefit. It would sure P!$$ off some people, but once again, people have had to deal with evolution and change from the very beginning, and it is also well known that the biggest hate of humans is change. But we have to, only to benefit our own species.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by AUIIForte

You're right, but if it did come into legislation, what do you think it would do to the road death toll? I think it would only benefit. It would sure P!$$ off some people, but once again, people have had to deal with evolution and change from the very beginning, and it is also well known that the biggest hate of humans is change. But we have to, only to benefit our own species.

Mind you, just because it becomes law, doesn't mean people will always follow it. You're showing too much faith in society.

[AUIIForte]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Mind you, just because it becomes law, doesn't mean people will always follow it. You're showing too much faith in society.

What do you mean? People would find a way around the rigorous and strict rules/training of gaining a drivers lisence?

And those that do pass it all to get their lisence, but still choose to be idiots on the road, they will still be around, no matter what anybody does. But it will be a minority. Far less and smaller than what is now.

[GTP290]

In my opinion I generally think a lot of young people like to go quick, when you get a bit older, have kids and have more assets than just a car, your additude towards speeding and driving in a forcefull fashion change a bit, dont get me wrong I still like to feel the boot of a v8 and go for a strap every now and then, but no where as near as much as 10 years ago when it was all about burnouts, drag racing and spending all of your dollars on mods for your car!

[TOM-CAT]

Limit all cars to 110km/h... they can get to that speed fast if you want, still sound nice, still look nice. but if thats our countries top limit (and speeds of over 110 are a contributing factor in a few crashes) why not just limit all cars straight out? it may not remove all deaths/accidents, but some are better then none.

or are all of the 'safe' drivers posting in here gonna get cranky coz they go over 110?

just my 2c

[flappist]

Firstly such a law will not affect anyone one here because by the time it would be proclaimed and implemented you will all be on open licenses.

The second part of this.

We have a huge car building capability in Australia. There is an almost new Mitsubishi factory in Adeliade for a start.

If this "P car" was built with Holden, Ford and whatever sub components, used hybrid engine technology and was a "no name" brand it may also help save jobs as well as lives.

If it were capable of left or right hand drive and because there was only one model was VERY cheap for parts and maintenance, maybe Australia could export these to the rest of the word.

Making them have a 6 year life before recycling and having them subsidised by the funding saved from all the oncosts from road deaths might make them viable.

e.g. retail price $10k (less than a camry with no taxes or tarrifs) and financed over 5 years (the period of the license) and no interest is about $40 per week.

If anyone cannot afford that then they cannot afford to drive.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Zamtro

Limit all cars to 110km/h... they can get to that speed fast if you want, still sound nice, still look nice. but if thats our countries top limit (and speeds of over 110 are a contributing factor in a few crashes) why not just limit all cars straight out? it may not remove all deaths/accidents, but some are better then none.

or are all of the 'safe' drivers posting in here gonna get cranky coz they go over 110?

just my 2c

Well I suspect all the NT drivers may not like being limited to 20km/h UNDER their speed limit (130km/h).

And the families of those killed while trying to overtake in rural areas when overtakee speeds up or oncoming traffics does the same.

[DoreSlamR]

Originally Posted by Zamtro

Limit all cars to 110km/h... they can get to that speed fast if you want, still sound nice, still look nice. but if thats our countries top limit (and speeds of over 110 are a contributing factor in a few crashes) why not just limit all cars straight out? it may not remove all deaths/accidents, but some are better then none.

or are all of the 'safe' drivers posting in here gonna get cranky coz they go over 110?

just my 2c

If all cars are limited to 110 how do you pass a road train doing 105 on a highway with limited overtaking opportunities safely? If you can only crawl past them.

Limiting speed isn't going to stop crashes.

daymore: I can see why 60 minutes put your mate on tv, he's exactly the kind of P plater they're talking about. Flippant, cocky and clueless.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Zamtro

Limit all cars to 110km/h... they can get to that speed fast if you want, still sound nice, still look nice. but if thats our countries top limit (and speeds of over 110 are a contributing factor in a few crashes) why not just limit all cars straight out? it may not remove all deaths/accidents, but some are better then none.

or are all of the 'safe' drivers posting in here gonna get cranky coz they go over 110?

just my 2c

as above

[TOM-CAT]

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

If all cars are limited to 110 how do you pass a road train doing 105 on a highway with limited overtaking opportunities safely? If you can only crawl past them.

if the road train is only doing 105 in a 110 then just settle down behind them... even over several hundred k's that 5kmph will make the smallest difference in time...

and for NT, i wasn't aware of there speed limits, never been there before. even limiting to 130 would help i believe. i know a few people to have died in crashes related to speeds above that.

[Rev28K]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Anyway, I'm 17 .......and always listen to my Dad and do what ever he tells me to.

Ding, Ding Ding!! I think that's part of the problem. Not having a go at your Dad in particular but a lot of people really shouldn't be teaching their kids their bad habits.

"Son, I've been driving for 20 years and since getting my licence I've done nothing to try and improve".

(My first car many moons ago was a half-grunty RWD manual 2 seater it eventually had triple-webers, 150rwkw and hit an indicated 250kmh at Phillip Island’s main straight. Thank god I was introduced to organised motor racing.)

[joolz]

Originally Posted by Zamtro

Limit all cars to 110km/h... they can get to that speed fast if you want, still sound nice, still look nice. but if thats our countries top limit (and speeds of over 110 are a contributing factor in a few crashes) why not just limit all cars straight out? it may not remove all deaths/accidents, but some are better then none.

or are all of the 'safe' drivers posting in here gonna get cranky coz they go over 110?

just my 2c

They will never speed limit cars as we all know that the Governments are too much in love with the revenue raised by speeding drivers. Trucks have had the speed limiting technology for years now but not with different speed zones tracked by GPS. So if they were serious about the road toll it would have been implemented already

[telstar1]

when i got my Ps i was only aloud to do 80ks on the open road.