What the hell is going wrong with some of us Men??…

[GT]

Originally Posted by bluestreak

I've always had high respect for women, but my personal belief is that this cr@p started with the push for equality. I’m all for it, but militant feminism has a lot to answer for. Gone are the days when a man would always hold a door open for a women, or similar gestures of chilvalry. Feminists decried these acts as sexist and set about vilifying them, but they missed the point. It wasn’t about inequality – it was about respect. It was respectful to hold open doors, or chairs, or to stand when women left the table etc. Not just women, but elders, and “betters” too. It almost never happens now, or at least I don’t see it happening.

Gee, this sounds just like something Russell would say - I thought he might have written it for you!

Great post and a very worthy read. I don't envy you with a daughter in this day and age and I'm relieved my boys are at an age where I don't have to worry like I used to.

Regards
Gaela

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by youngun

Im not supporting this act at all, it makes me sick. But I have seen this swing the other way too, I'm 20 and I have two mates that have been charged for statutory rape in recent years when their consenting (but underage) girlfriend's parents found out. One of them was convicted and is now registered as a sex offender, has lost not only his job but very nearly his life from the ordeal.

If they're underage then they're unable to consent by law - I'd side with the parents on that one. If my underage daughter was having sex with ~20 year old men, they'd be spending time in the pokey, too.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

The reason why people continue to do this is for 1 reason. Because they know that they can use our weak legal system to their advantage to lower their sentence for whatever reason a savy lawyer / doctor can find.

There is no fear or respect for the law, and the people who enforce it.

What is the answer? MINIMUM sentences. Having fines / jail sentences that start with "from" not "up to".

If you came from another country for a 'better life' and were proven to have done anything above a certain severity of crime then the punishment should be a fine and deportation with a 'never to enter' stamp on their file. No if's / buts.

Stuff putting these people in jails here for a cost of whatever it is a year. We buy 90% of our stuff from Asia because they can do it cheaper. So, pay China / Thailand / Indonesia $20 grand a year to keep them locked away and provide them with a living pen and 3 squares. They would JUMP at the opportunity.

How bout this. After you get out, you have then voided your right to get any sort of government help. Nothing, Nil. No medicare. No pension. You have caused a drain on the community due to your own inactions, so you pay for it.

Seems harsh doesn't it? But would that scare you into complying with the law however? I would be pertified. And if you think it wouldn't work, what happens to the roads every time double demerits pops up?

Look at what Singapore does to people who do petty crimes. They BEAT them. Out comes the good old cane and they go hard till the blood flows. I have been to Singapore several times now. The trains have not 1 mark, peoples property is left alone and respected, the place is clean as can be, considering the density of the population.

Off Rant....

Doesnt seem harsh seems more like common sense (therefore unlikely to be implemented sadly) or instead of sending them to asia put them to work here, so they pay their way.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Rodp

If they're underage then they're unable to consent by law - I'd side with the parents on that one. If my underage daughter was having sex with ~20 year old men, they'd be spending time in the pokey, too.

+1, no excuses there.

[castellan]

Hey! don't knock back any thing to do with making money or any thing that could give you pleasure.
Remember We have only evolved from apes you know.
So we can't be held responsible. (is your brother your keeper) is he?
Luckily we have political correctness to fall back on. :
Ower kids are not our own, but the government's kids. (remember the golden calf)

The old premier of QLD. Sir joh Bjelke-Petersen, has been proven to be right time and time again.
Just you wait and see! he always said. and he always warned people about this type of filth. and our greatly glorified media, battled against him every step of the way.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by bluestreak

Well, where do you start?

I served in an all-male unit when I was in the Navy and I now work in a male dominated industry. I object to the broad brushing of groups where this sort of thing has occurred. These miscreants did this themselves, not the organisation.

I’ve seen situations that could easily have ended up like this - but the outcomes were determined by the dynamics of the group. ie, the dominant members of the pack were level headed and we nipped it in the bud. Pack mentality cannot be understood by anyone who has not experienced it. Once you succumb to it, unless you are one of the level headed ones, there is no thought of consequences, especially when alcohol is involved. It doesn’t matter how severe the penalties are, they won’t act as a deterrent because you're not thinking that far ahead.

I've always had high respect for women, but my personal belief is that this cr@p started with the push for equality. I’m all for it, but militant feminism has a lot to answer for. Gone are the days when a man would always hold a door open for a women, or similar gestures of chilvalry. Feminists decried these acts as sexist and set about vilifying them, but they missed the point. It wasn’t about inequality – it was about respect. It was respectful to hold open doors, or chairs, or to stand when women left the table etc. Not just women, but elders, and “betters” too. It almost never happens now, or at least I don’t see it happening.

If respect is not taught, at home or at school, how are kids supposed to know their behaviour is wrong?

It has only spiralled out of control since then as others have said, with sex in advertising and on telly and music clips, and easy access to graphic hardcore violent and demeaning porn etc. Listen to any hip hop or R’n’B lyrics – all b7tches an hos and flick the police. Kids think it’s cool.

Further, what’s gone wrong with the girls themselves? They seem to have very little respect for themselves. They put themselves in risky situations without thought that it could all go wrong. I’ve seen it in my own daughter. Her response? Everyone else is doing it. She’s 16 and if she want’s to move out and shack up with her deadbeat no hoper boyfriend there’s nothing we can do to stop her. Certainly nothing we can tell her. I could easily see her getting into this situation. It’s only after something goes wrong that she’ll listen and understand. It keeps me up. Her friends are all the same.

Whether male or female I hold grave fears for Gen Y - as a whole they don't seem to have any understanding of responsibility or consequences.

One thing I’d like to see introduced in Australia(but never will), is something they do in certain European countries where alcohol and drugs are considered aggravating factors(not mitigating). ie, if you did something under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the penalty is harsher because these things impair your judgement. You have to prove you weren't drunk/high, and drugs and drink no longer excuse you from doing stuff.

Hanging the lowlifes that do this stuff is fine after the event, but girls must protect themselves by not putting themselves in that situation in the first place. I'm not judging them, or saying they deserved it - they don't. But we don't always get what we deserve, or deserve what we get.

How do we fix it? Not quickly or easily.

Cheers

great post mate . i would love to say it like that , as i believ you are right . great to see someone say what i'd like too , but if i wrote this , it would come out wrong and i'd be pack raped here . so it's great to read it said properly. cheers

[JACK250]

Originally Posted by Geez Louise

They got a councellor in and we had to go to the school to explain why. I tell you right now after 15mins that guy was in shock at how we discipline our son. There is no hitting, just punishment (you lose your bedroom door, mobile phone priveledges taken away) until acknowledgement is made by my son for his actions. The councellor STILL advised our youngest that there are other steps he can take....What a crock!!

That is a crock indeed, I don't see how these people think they are doing the right thing by encouraging kids to rebel against their parents, when the parents aren't doing anything illegal, or even immoral! And these are the people that have all the answers to the problems in society :togo:

[gavinw]

IF they are found guilty a minimum of TEN years in prison with no pants or underwear on for the duration !!!! Then we will see if they change there opinion on rape.
The two girls can go in with a broom stick once a week and have a go too.
If you want to act like an animal be prepared to be treated like one.
Lucky im not a judge.

[Fireblade]

Its a sad sad world we all live in now.

[bluestreak]

Originally Posted by GTGTP

Great post and a very worthy read...

Originally Posted by gtfpv

great post mate...

Thanks guys, good to know my views aren't isolated - not that I'd change them.

Originally Posted by castellan

Ower kids are not our own, but the government's kids. (remember the golden calf)

Originally Posted by JACK250

That is a crock indeed, I don't see how these people think they are doing the right thing by encouraging kids to rebel against their parents, when the parents aren't doing anything illegal, or even immoral! And these are the people that have all the answers to the problems in society

castellan, I'm trying to work out if you're being sarcastic, ironic or serious, but I agree with what you and Jack have written. It really busts me up when government meddlers and do-gooders go out of their way to sabotage discipline in the home, then when the poo hits the pan, the first thing they say is parents need to take more responsibility for their kids' behaviour. Some kids may respond to reasoning and timeout, but some are just mongrels and need real discipline.

Cheers

[Geez Louise]

I heard kids talking about this when I was out shopping tonight and one of them said...." Hell Yeah...I wouldda done it"

The words that come out of my mouth next were things this young man had never heard. After I fronted him and his mates, the look of shame was there for all to see.

This is what is wrong with society these days. Kids think it is cool...or indeed something they can be praised by others on...

Totally disgusting!!

[castellan]

The government are fools. they are so inept and are content with treating every one with the same brush. the (lowest common denominator stance).

And this happens to be the easiest way to deal with things. and so you see they are getting away with it. for the time being the present but in the future some one will have to deal with it. :
Because they can not be, really be held accountable.

God help you if you ran a business like these fools.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

totally agree 4Vman .

i must admit now that everything on tv nowadays is about sex. and women are the ones used to advertise it on tv . being a father i cannot stop my kids from seeing what is portrayed as normal these days . just watching movie music clips on saturday mornings these days my daughter and son get to see virtually naked women in every film clip . and women getting it on together . imagine what goes through a 16 year old boys mind seeing this from age 4 onwards . women are being pertrayed as hungry for sex on tv . we all know the reality is different a group of 16 year old girls might not think that going back to a party after a night out means there up for it , but boys might think the girls are up for it , because thats whats on tv every day .
what tv soap can you think of that doesnt have women kissing on it . even the nice ones .
i think people are being brought up to think casual sex is a part of life and women are up for it . just by what i see on tv today . and when sex crimes happen everyone appears to be insanely shocked !!

Sorry if I come across as harsh, not the intent... You've identified the problem, but yet think you can't do anything about it. You're their role model, they will absorb everything you say and do, and they will follow it.

It's your home, you're the king of your home. It's the only place on this planet you have authority over your young ones so do something about it.

[skp]

I'm a female. I know I'm only young (20), but even I've seen a downward slide in women's self respect and society in general.

I remember three years ago my best friend fell pregnant and prayed it wasn't a girl as she was scared of the life she would grow up to have. This was after looking through baby/childrens clothing and you can see biniki tops in size 0! Not to mention the short skirts, leggings and skanky tops you can buy for girls when they are a few years older. She has had a girl and is constantly worried about her future and societies lack of discipline in Australia but she is always teaching good morals and behaviour to her kid, so hopefully that will turn out okay when she is older.

I'm probably not exactly 'normal', but I've only gone to clubs a few times and when I do it is disgusting the things I see some people do. I prefer to have house parties and if I want to drink I do so with people I can trust (friends/fiance) but still, being drunk is no excuse for the behaviour as it just makes you do things you deep down want to do!

Just walking down the street you see groups of guys barely 16 years old acting like morons and girls being ditzy. And when you see parents and kids together it makes you want to slap the parents sometimes! If you wrap them up in cotton wool they are going to expect that treatment for life and will control you (unless they have a brain and grows up themselves) when you don't have respect for yourself and have the natural order of the parents disciplining their child. I know for one I don't plan on babying my kid, even when I had my puppy I wouldn't let it up on the bed when my partner wanted to sleep with her up there as she would expect it all the time, just because they are cute doesn't mean you have to let them have everything they want.

I personally haven't really experienced much negative behaviour from guys myself, had wolf whistling from cars etc but I keep away from people who seem like trouble. It probably helps a lot that I'm engaged to the best guy who opens doors for me and stuff.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Sorry if I come across as harsh, not the intent... You've identified the problem, but yet think you can't do anything about it. You're their role model, they will absorb everything you say and do, and they will follow it.

It's your home, you're the king of your home. It's the only place on this planet you have authority over your young ones so do something about it.

mate thats not harsh at all . i think i am bringing up my kids well , with christian principles - or perhaps respect and courtious principles. my kids i know are nice kids and i'm not just saying that. but i cant stop them turning on the tv .
overall though you are right falc' man good parenting outstrips any influence.

[FPV GT40]

If this is actually about rape then it is a digrace, and these guys should be punished, but if it is about young girls being sluts, and willingly participate, only to cry rape later, as they might not have gotten out of it what they wanted, the women should be charged.

I have friends that are involved in teams and stuff, and they get this all the time, women freely offering themselves to several men/groups of players for the night(I have witnessed it first hand). These girls mostly get rejected by the men out of fear of rape allegations the next morning and as many of the guys are happily married.

So there are two sides of the story, if the women are happy to participate in this activity(as hundreds possibly thousands do every week end all over the country) then I have no issues with that (and I do not believe it is gay either). If they get raped, ie forced to have sex without consent than Police needs to take action.

The scary thing is when the alcohol has worn off the next morning and the women feel like whores for what they might have consented to the previous night, they might just make a report stating that they were raped just to save face in front of friends and family who might have found out about their exploits with the footy team the night before.

Re the statutory rape thing mentioned earlier, if a man meets a new women (one night stand) on licenced premises drinking alcohol, and the women states she is 18, how can the man be expected to know she might be under age??? I doubt ID checks would be welcomed by the prospective one night stand (don't really know the answer as I have been married for 12 years and as such have been out of the game). Only asking as some stated not knowing is no excuse, I believe it might be, or should be to any red blooded but innocent male who might have got 'lucky' down the pub.....

[bluestreak]

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

If this is actually about rape then it is a digrace, and these guys should be punished, but if it is about young girls being sluts, and willingly participate, only to cry rape later, as they might not have gotten out of it what they wanted, the women should be charged...

...The scary thing is when the alcohol has worn off the next morning and the women feel like whores for what they might have consented to the previous night, they might just make a report stating that they were raped just to save face in front of friends and family who might have found out about their exploits with the footy team the night before...

I've seen this too, where stuff goes on and there are regrets the next morning - who has never done something they regret the next day? I know of a rape charge that was laid over such an attempt to save face, then later withdrawn, so I'm aware it happens. But I doubt it's as common as you think.

If anything, it's more likely there are many rape claims that go unreported because of the shame the victim experiences, or the belief that people will judge them or say they deserved it. As I said in a previous post we don't always get what we deserve or deserve what we get.

I may be wrong, but I understand that all the people involved were on holiday and not locals. I think people have less inhibitions when on holiday because they aren't worried about friends or family finding out about their indiscretions. Just because someone may have shown an error of judgement doesn't mean they deserve this.

Plus, let's not forget that people have the right of consent and can choose to stop consenting at any time, even if penetration has already occurred and you are on the 'vinigar stroke'.

Let's say, hypothetically, that the girls involved were indeed loose women and consented to have sex with two, three or even four of the guys allegedly involved. If, when guy number five rocks up for his turn, the young woman decides it's no longer what she wants, it's still rape if these guys go on.

Basically, going back to 4Vman's original post, what's gone wrong when guys think it's cool for 16 blokes to drive a train through a girl. Whether she consented or not.

The best answer, boys and girls, is not to allow yourself or your mates to get into this position...

Cheers

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

If this is actually about rape then it is a digrace, and these guys should be punished, but if it is about young girls being sluts, and willingly participate, only to cry rape later, as they might not have gotten out of it what they wanted, the women should be charged.

I have friends that are involved in teams and stuff, and they get this all the time, women freely offering themselves to several men/groups of players for the night(I have witnessed it first hand). These girls mostly get rejected by the men out of fear of rape allegations the next morning and as many of the guys are happily married.

So there are two sides of the story, if the women are happy to participate in this activity(as hundreds possibly thousands do every week end all over the country) then I have no issues with that (and I do not believe it is gay either). If they get raped, ie forced to have sex without consent than Police needs to take action.

The scary thing is when the alcohol has worn off the next morning and the women feel like whores for what they might have consented to the previous night, they might just make a report stating that they were raped just to save face in front of friends and family who might have found out about their exploits with the footy team the night before.

Re the statutory rape thing mentioned earlier, if a man meets a new women (one night stand) on licenced premises drinking alcohol, and the women states she is 18, how can the man be expected to know she might be under age??? I doubt ID checks would be welcomed by the prospective one night stand (don't really know the answer as I have been married for 12 years and as such have been out of the game). Only asking as some stated not knowing is no excuse, I believe it might be, or should be to any red blooded but innocent male who might have got 'lucky' down the pub.....

Your take on these things really worrys me......

[FPV GT40]

Originally Posted by bluestreak

Basically, going back to 4Vman's original post, what's gone wrong when guys think it's cool for 16 blokes to drive a train through a girl. Whether she consented or not.

Big difference there, if they did not consent its called rape, if they did consent its called a good time was had by all, very very big difference.

I believe 4V man's original post referred to the rape of women, not consentual group sex, which is a lot more common than what most people realise.

Originally Posted by bluestreak

Plus, let's not forget that people have the right of consent and can choose to stop consenting at any time, even if penetration has already occurred and you are on the 'vinigar stroke'.

Let's say, hypothetically, that the girls involved were indeed loose women and consented to have sex with two, three or even four of the guys allegedly involved. If, when guy number five rocks up for his turn, the young woman decides it's no longer what she wants, it's still rape if these guys go on.]

Correct and no one said otherwise...

[FPV GT40]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Your take on these things really worrys me......

Please elaborate on your comment, as I would be interested which part in particular worries you.

[bluestreak]

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

Big difference there, if they did not consent its called rape, if they did consent its called a good time was had by all, very very big difference...

...Correct and no one said otherwise...

Easy there mate, I wasn't having a dig at you.

But:

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

...I believe 4V man's original post referred to the rape of women, not consentual group sex, which is a lot more common than what most people realise

True. That sentence was my own view. And here's why:

Originally Posted by FPV GT40

These girls mostly get rejected by the men out of fear of rape allegations the next morning and as many of the guys are happily married.

Consequences.

If people want to put themselves in at-risk situations (a drunken orgy, or possibly underage random one night stand) they can't get too upset if things turn out for the worse, claim innocence and say "it wasn't my fault".

If everyone knew in advance what they were in for and had informed choice, fair enough. But I doubt everyone sat down with either of these two girls and said "there's a fair chance that up to 30 guys will have sex with you tonight, you up for it?" and then decided who would, who wouldn't, what order, what positions etc.

Just because group sex is more common than people think, doesn't mean it's commonplace.

And as I said in my first post, alcohol impairs your judgement. Even if these girls consented to 50 guys plugging them, if they made that decision whilst heavily intoxicated(no doubt they'd had a bit to drink), their judgement is impaired and it's STILL rape. In the morning they would still be within their rights to press charges.

Still think that gangbang is a good idea?

Cheers

[Keepleft]

The downhill trend in behaviour and attitude began in western countries well over 30 years ago, and extends to adopted 'rights' and 'restrictions' via the UN process, despite those rights existing under western governance, but simply not used at the time to the fore - or tested at court. Add immigration criteria - to destroy community kinship.

Lima Agreement (1976) (national productivity and export of jobs), Rights of the Child (No smacking) etc and so on, not typically signed by third world lot. Judicial sentencing guidelines - forcing judges to reduce maximum goalable potential on an accused upbringing and other mitigating factors, so that life here is as cheap as it is in some third world countries.

[turbo_man]

the problem here is all the stupid laws around these days regarding what parents can or can't do and i reckon this lack of punishment often leads to these sort of things
im only 16 and my dad would be in a lot of trouble for doing what he did to me (although now looking back it seems pretty reasonable) like using the wooden spoon, smacking me when i was bad, the corner (the corner was awful! nothing to do or play with but it worked) he also instilled all his principals in me which i see so many other guys my age miss out on

i wouldn't even consider doing anything like that to a girl its just so wrong and if any of my mates considered it the rest of us would pull him into line so you just cant paint us all with the same brush.
its kinda like p platers the majority are good and law abiding but the idiots are the ones publicised and we all cop it.

[bingoTE50]

It is really a sad reflection of the road we are heading down. Lack of respect for all.Lack of manners.Lack of faith.Lack of control.Lack of love for each other.Lack of morals.
Sex is the dessert of a relationship,it should not be the main course.Too many times there is no emotional attachment ,it is just the physical act .
If the girl says no ,its no...Not maybe...

[gtfpv]

hahahahahaha . another post where everyone is an expert . and the certain forum elite start to twist and turn on people .
what a way to get smileys . these posts are becoming all too predictable .
i dont like what i'm reading here any more and hope this thread gets closed , and the elite can start mocking in there little team in some other post .

[Franco Cozzo]

Wouldn't it have been a better idea to hire a hooker? Split it between 16 people and it shouldn't cost too much, maybe a tip from everyone and she wouldn't mind?

It beats ruinings someones life and facing the judge.

[GK]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its been "suggested" that the portrayal of aggressive group sex (multiple men/1 girl) in porn is triggering this behavior...

This begs the question.. how are these people being bought up and how are their moral standards being formed? where is the compromise occurring? Home? school? social/peer or sporting environments? dare i say it the Internet?
Why aren't these people able to differentiate between fantasy and reality?

I'm basically a Chaplain where I work and I spend time with groups of young fellas (sometimes in large, sometimes in small groups) discussing the negative effects of pornography. I've also taught young people over a number of years in our Personal Development Curriculum, mainly Yr8-9.

I will most likely get flamed for saying some of this, however I believe it's the truth.

1. People have NEVER had such easy access to porn.

2. Soooo many young people are allowed to access porn via their computers, mobile phones or TV/DVD setup, in their own bedrooms. Only God knows what our young people may get up to in such unsupervised situations. Many people think this is fine, or have their heads in the sand about the negative effect porn has on the way men may view women. Parents are conned it seems, to believe that they have no right to monitor or approve/disapprove of what their children do on their own time. This is rubbish. Parents are supposed to parent, not be their child's best friend. (Flame suit on!)

3. Porn, like any addiction, starts out as a bit of a thrill, then slowly (sometimes very quickly) grabs people and starts to control them. Think gambling, smoking, illicit drugs, alcohol and you see the telltale signs of people systematically being negatively taken over by such things.

In the case of pornography, just like drugs, the seriousness of what kids are watching gets more and more horrible, as the initial images lose their effect, and they start going for more "intense/harder core images". The young fellas I talk to about this know exactly what I'm talking about here. If unchecked, they may end up looking at stuff that is truly sickening.

4. A man's view/perception of a women becomes distorted, and may only give young (or older) people the idea that women only have sexual value. Sadly, our music videos, TV shows, movies etc, etc only generally serve to reinforce this idea. Young people with limited self control or media awareness are no match for this kind of thing.

We need to teach them to be intelligent consumers of the media and to teach them to be critical of the media manipulation they are subjected to.

5. Sadly it takes quite a lot of time to get this idea through to young fellas, as they're so often driven by urges and changes they are going through. A young person's brain isn't fully developed until about 25, which explains a lot of things, but without proper instruction, ability to relate to women on many different levels, and some careful and deliberate censorship, we do our young people such a dis service.

6. I once watched this interview with Ted Bundy when he was on death row in the states. The term "serial killer" was introduced when he was doing his evil deeds with women. He told the interviewer that all of the men he was associating with in jail on death row, who'd murdered women, had ALL started with porn. That's absolutely alarming!

This of course doesn't mean anyone who's looked at or who is addicted to porn becomes a killer of women. But porn has a powerful effect on the way people see women. Dangerous indeed.

7. My last point. A former Chief Censor of Australia (10 or so years in the job IIRC) quit or retired from his job, and guess what he started doing? He's in the porn business. Don't tell me all those hours of watching dodgy stuff in order to be able to classify it for our viewing didn't damage his view of people, women in particular.

GK

[BENT_8]

I see what your saying, but i find it hard to believe there is any one thing that leads to this type of behaviour.
Sure access to extreme porn has never been easier, but gang rapes etc. have been happening long before the net.
You can hire dvd's from your local store which depict extreme gore, that doesn't mean everyone who see's it will struggle to seperate fact from fiction, but for some troubled minds it's not so straight forward.

I believe it is like drugs and alcohol, if a person has underlying issues they may well have serious side effects. Others can drink or smoke til their comatose over many years and still function as normal citizens.

You cant tell me 16 guys all with porn related issues just happen to come together in one room on one night.
I would take a guess and say there was a couple of damaged individuals and a dozen or so hanger on's who got caught up in the event.

I know people who had strict upbringings and turned out nothing but trouble, others barely touched and turned out fine, again, individuals react differently to situations, there is no right or wrong way to discipline.

Either way, it doesn't make it right and they should be dealt with.

[Bucknaked]

Some good points there GK. But surely any person with half a sense would be able to separate fantasy from real world. I think it's easier to blame others or choose to point the finger at society. Time people took responsibility for their actions and not blame society for providing them with the tools that make them do irrational and unlawful acts. We have to stop looking at ways to justify the wrongs. It's like the guy up on murder who pleads by reason of insanity just to get a better deal.

[GK]

If anyone has got the impression from my long post that I think that pornography is soley to blame for the recent (or all) attacks as mentioned in the first post, then that's not what I intended.

I'm saying that porn addictions may and do lead to such behaviour.

I've said nothing about the lack of courage, or lack of morality instilled in our young men, or the pack mentality that may exist in sporting clubs but I could probably write equally lengthy posts on these also.

To be sure though, porn addiction does play a part, especially when talking about separating fact from fantasy. Especially the final stage of addiction, which is "Acting Out". That's the problem with such high level addictions. What is fact/normal/reasonable may become quite distorted.

GK