Another Ford vs Holden Comparison!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

6 weeks wait is nothing in the scheme of things, there is a 10 week wait on luxury spec CX7's atm, we waited 4 months for my wifes SLK230 a few years ago...

It is a big deal when cross shoppers can go get a competitor's vehicles almost immediately...
While the G6ET is a lovely car, I'm sure Holden had pinched sales by having a Calais V available now....

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It is a big deal when cross shoppers can go get a competitor's vehicles almost immediately...
While the G6ET is a lovely car, I'm sure Holden had pinched sales by having a Calais V available now....

Maybe so, and i might get flamed for this but.....good riddance. Ok, that was a bit harsh, but really...you can't wait 6-8 weeks for the car to turn up? Geez, imported cars in a 'given spec' take months and months (from all manufacturers) so if you want to buy the INFERIOR PRODUCT and live with it for 3-10 years then best of luck to ya...you clearly dont deserve the better, FORD product.....

You have obviously driven your current car for years so waht is a few more weeks...most of the time i hear reasonse like this for buying a car it is to paper over the real, blinkered or simlistic motivation. If you can't plan your next car purchase well enough to account for a few more weeks wait well no wonder you end up the inferior car.....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Maybe so, and i might get flamed for this but.....good riddance. Ok, that was a bit harsh, but really...you can't wait 6-8 weeks for the car to turn up? Geez, imported cars in a 'given spec' take months and months (from all manufacturers) so if you want to buy the INFERIOR PRODUCT and live with it for 3-10 years then best of luck to ya...you clearly dont deserve the better, FORD product.....

You have obviously driven your current car for years so waht is a few more weeks...most of the time i hear reasonse like this for buying a car it is to paper over the real, blinkered or simlistic motivation. If you can't plan your next car purchase well enough to account for a few more weeks wait well no wonder you end up the inferior car.....

90% of vehicle sales in Australia go to other brands - what does that tell you?
If you have a walk in that wants a particular car/colour, you better have it or they'll go down the road.....

The harsh reality for dealers is that mingled amongst time wasting tyre kickers is a bunch
of shoppers that are looking to buy that do research in the form of checking off boxes on lists
and one of those is "available right now" - the salesperson's biggest tool, deny them that and sales walk.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It is a big deal when cross shoppers can go get a competitor's vehicles almost immediately...
While the G6ET is a lovely car, I'm sure Holden had pinched sales by having a Calais V available now....

Most people have plenty of warning about lease ends, i don't believe people are that desperate they can't wait a few weeks for the BEST option....

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

i don't believe people are that desperate they can't wait a few weeks for the BEST option....

You would be suprised Norm. I myself have never been in the market for a brand new car, but my parents were going to buy a Fiesta Econetic, but were told there would be a wait of several weeks. They instead bought a petrol Fiesta that was already in stock, all from the same dealer. I wouldnt call them desperate, it was more of a matter of that being the only real spare time they had to get it done.

[mrbaxr6t]

I read on page one about the trip computer and the DTE figures that were discussed - most GPS devices can monitor distance as well as speed and my falcon (BA) and the newly acquired focus (XR5T) is bang on with both saying to within .2 kms over 100 on the GPS - so as was alluded to the commodore trip computer if is clocking more kms is clearly wrong. Jump in a commo with a GPS and check for yourself.

on page two (I think) there was talk about the role women play in car choice, if this is true then mazda must be going gangbusters - all the women I see in newer cars are either driving mazda 3 or mazda 6, the women I see driving commodores are driving slightly older ones er VT VX (I think) which could have been bought secondhand for alot less money (ex fleet perhaps)

ok now on to the talk about "waits" fact is younger people are very impatient they want it you don't have it they go to somebody who does have it.

the black eyed peas said it best "we are the now generation - make me wait and i'll whip your ***" they dont like waiting at all for anything, a wait of more than 90 seconds is considered heinous at mcdonalds and they are screaming for additional staff or a manager to whip them or something!, it is a fair call that there are people that want a car and want it immediately then they will buy what they can get no matter the badge or the quality. And besides buy a car at the start of the year and get last years' model plate at a discount and you will get whatever you want and quite quickly too after all they don't want last years' plated cars hanging around for any longer than is absolutely necessary hence the discounting.

the only way I can see ford countering this "wait" issue is to stock every dealership with one of everything in every color that way you walk in its there you walk out getting the instant gratification hit you so desire.

Me on the other hand will wait to get exactly what I want and I am realistic they can't predict the future and make one earmarked for me before I order it. Well they can guess what will sell but that means having more cars clogging up dealerships and awaiting sale, both holden and Ford swapped remember the days when Ford used to belt them out and there was yards at broadmeadows FULL of new cars all the colors of the rainbow awaiting sale? its a bean counter thing the accountants said nono do it this way and fill orders it will cost you less and make you more competitvely priced against your rivals. If either manufacturer were to return to that business model the price of the cars they sell would have to increase giving them a price disadvantage in the marketplace.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

I read on page one about the trip computer and the DTE figures that were discussed - most GPS devices can monitor distance as well as speed and my falcon (BA) and the newly acquired focus (XR5T) is bang on with both saying to within .2 kms over 100 on the GPS - so as was alluded to the commodore trip computer if is clocking more kms is clearly wrong. Jump in a commo with a GPS and check for yourself.

on page two (I think) there was talk about the role women play in car choice, if this is true then mazda must be going gangbusters - all the women I see in newer cars are either driving mazda 3 or mazda 6, the women I see driving commodores are driving slightly older ones er VT VX (I think) which could have been bought secondhand for alot less money (ex fleet perhaps)

The Commodore I was referring to was my Mrs car that she had before I met here (as she is Commodore crazy ) which was a VT it has no GPS, no doubt if the speedo is GPS driven then it would be accurate.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by Feann Torr

These volume-selling sporty sixes look and feel the part, but how do they fare when it comes to guzzling gas -- is Holden's new tech V6 more frugal than Ford's I6?

Comparison Test

Carsales Network verdict:
Performance: Ford Falcon XR6
Handling: Ford Falcon XR6
Comfort: Holden Commodore SV6
Value: Ford Falcon XR6
Overall: Ford Falcon XR6

Six Cylinder Sports Sedan Showdown

The skies are grey over the Sydney skyline and there's a light drizzle that hangs in the air -- not the ideal weather to be testing a pair of almost two-tonne sports sedans.

But we're on a mission and like a carefully planned military operation the window of opportunity is narrow. We want to find out which car is more fuel efficient while at the same time determining which is a better drive in a range of real world conditions.

As you may have read in the first part of the Carsales Network's large car economy challenge, Holden has been spruiking its new SIDI V6 engines as automotive dromedaries.

So in the red corner is the Holden Commodore SV6 and in the blue corner we have the Ford Falcon XR6 -- both vehicles that take pride of place in many suburban car ports. With the recently revised engines being fitted to the Holden, we wanted to find out for ourselves how it performed.

Holden's new SIDI (direct injection) V6 engines are being touted as the next big thing by the people at Fisherman's Bend because, until now, direct injection engines have generally been the reserve of high-end European and Japanese luxury cars.

Holden now offers two such engines, a 190kW/290Nm 3.0-litre V6 found in entry-level Commodore models and a 3.6-litre V6 unit generating 210kW/350Nm packaged with high-end variants, including the SV6 on test here. Though smaller than the Falcon's 4.0-litre six-cylinder engine, Holden's 3.6-litre SIDI V6 generates more power -- 210kW versus 195kW -- but the Falcon has more torque.

Our plan? To traverse an extended loop starting in Sydney's CBD in peak hour traffic, but also taking in a long ribbon of faster winding stuff away from town. Over this course we'd test fuel economy, but also comfort, performance, handling and value. Also, check out our companion piece for an idea of the conversations that took place during the testing of these sports sedans.

Combining real world urban conditions with a good deal of foot-to-the-floor open road sprinting thrown in for good measure, let's find out which of these contenders is the most efficient, and the best to drive.

The Test

Stepping into the Holden first (colleague Steve Ottley taking the Ford), I dropped the hammer on lightly damp roads and the SV6 responded with gusto, the updated six-speed automatic handling the increased torque and power levels with aplomb. The new direct injection technology might be aimed at reducing consumption, but one handy side-effect is increased torque and power.

The updated VE model SV6 hustles away from standstill with more eagerness than any V6 Commodore before it -- except perhaps for the supercharged VY Commodore S from 2004. And settling into a commuting rhythm during Thursday afternoon stop-start traffic in the heart of Australia's busiest city, it was the Holden that started out as slight favourite in our assumption. It was, however, the Falcon that drew first blood, using almost a litre (per 100km) less fuel than the Commodore at the first driver change.

Stepping into the Falcon it strikes you as a more modern and appealing interior design. How quickly the Commodore is looking and feeling dated.

Plant your right foot firmly to the floor and the Falcon XR6 motivates very swiftly. The Falcon is 15kW down on the Commodore SV6s 210kW, yet the Ford pulls with more vigour, compensating for its lower power output with a 41Nm surplus over its rival.

When it comes to the little things, the repetitive everyday tasks, the Commodore's lighter steering made for easier lane changes and tight-space manoeuvring, and its stereo and air-conditioning controls are slightly more intuitive than the Falcons. But whenever we stopped at traffic lights or stop signs, operating the Falcon's handbrake was preferable. The Holden VE Commodore's nasty old handbrake has to go down in history as one of the worst designs. It's chunky, has sharp edges and can do damage to the unwary.

After emerging from the CBD relatively unscathed, we pottered around the suburbs for a handful of kilometres and a few photo ops. Narrower streets with cars parked on either side made for slow going (one sometimes forgets how wide these cars are) but the big Aussie sedans were easy to manoeuvre.

Holden's SV6 had comfier seats with slightly more seat supportive cushioning and touch more shoulder width. Getting out of the SV6 and into the XR6, you feel as though you sit 'in' the Falcon while riding a little lower, so the Commodore also has a better driving position.

However in many respects the Falcon was a more impressive vehicle. From the quality of plastics used in the interior to the weighting of the steering wheel, the XR6 was slightly ahead in presentation, tactile feedback and overall seat-of-your-pants feel.

Ride quality was hard to split between the two, both of which are quiet, composed vehicles [given their sporting aspirations] that soak up most of what the road throws at them. Only really deep potholes and hard ridges really shake them or cause an audible intrusion in the cabin. This performance is all the more impressive given both models are equipped with uprated sports suspension packages to give them a sportier feel and allow them to maintain grip through corners at higher speeds.

The claimed urbanbcycle fuel consumption figure for the Commodore SV6 is 14.1L/100km and 14.0L/100km for the Falcon XR6, but after almost an hour in the saddle (stopping, starting, merging, head checking and sometimes cursing) both vehicles were reading in the high 11s -- a pleasant surprise.

But it wasn't to last…

When we approached the fast (and thankfully traffic-free) winding section of our test loop, the difference in the cars became more apparent. Both the Ford and Holden sedans felt confident and responsive through the fast sweeping corners but after changing from the Holden into the Ford, the XR6 felt more composed.

Simply put, the XR6 is the superior vehicle in terms of driving dynamics. That is, it feels smoother when changing direction, as the vehicle's weight shift is more progressive.

Ultimately the FG Falcon is a newer car with more advanced suspension, which would go some way to explaining its dynamic advantage. By and large both cars were always fairly close through the fast stuff, but the Falcon tracked more cleanly through corners and was easier to drive hard, requiring less effort to get the most out it.

The Commodore SV6's steering is a little lighter with more power steering assistance than the XR6's (more suited for tight manoeuvres and commuting) but this lightness masked feel and feedback somewhat, such as when attacking corners at full tilt.

The Falcon's brakes were the pick of the pair with more bite and better pedal feel. Simply put, the Commodore SV6's brake pedal had to be buried deep for best effect, while the Falcon had strong bite with less effort.

Tyre grip was too close call, but both cars held on remarkably well during our test drive despite the drizzle. After working some heat into the rubber we were able to push the cars harder through corners. Both the XR6's Dunlop SP Sport 01s (245/45 R17) and the SV6's Yokohama S-221 (245/45 R18) squealed like a toddlers on giant swings.

Power delivery on both cars felt good, with the Falcon somewhat smoother. The 3.6-litre SIDI V6 in the Holden has a strong top end and is quite a revvy unit while the Falcon's midrange was superior, giving it slightly better roll on performance.

Changes made to Holden's 6L50E six-speed automatic gearbox made it a more refined piece of machinery to work with, with smoother take off and less jerkiness than its predecessor, but yet again the Falcon's six-speed ZF transmission was the better unit, with quicker shift times and a more responsive tiptronic mode.

By the time we'd finished driving, both Steve and I had come to the conclusion that the Falcon was more satisfying to drive. By now it was back into heavy traffic and once again both cars performed equally well.

But the burning question remained -- which was the more efficient car?

Expecting the Ford to come out on top at the end of the test loop -- based on the fact that it didn't have to rev its engine as hard to achieve similar performance -- the end result drew some furtive glances between the drivers.

The brawler in the red corner took it to the fighter in the blue corner and the judge's unanimous decision was simple and somewhat anticlimactic: a draw. The car's finished dead even in terms of fuel economy.

Both vehicles recorded an average fuel consumption of 12.5L/100km across our test loop. Driving styles were kept to smooth, even-handed driving while commuting, with both cars staying in relatively close proximity to ensure fairness. During the fast stuff we let rip.

In retrospect, the result indicates that Ford's bigger engine is not necessarily thirstier, and makes us wonder what it would be capable of given a dose of direct injection technology a la the Holden. But that's a story that will probably never get told...

However, when it comes to performance, the Ford FG Falcon XR6 edged out the Holden VE Commodore SV6 with its more accomplished chassis. The blue-badge was easier to drive harder and felt more composed while doing so.

At the end of the day, both cars are solid performers that used the same amount of fuel. Taken as a whole, however, the XR6 is the better sporty...

http://www.carsales.com.au/reviews/2...lcon-xr6-18164

[CAMS290]

And the great unwashed continue to lap up the drivel that Holden feed to them, keeping the Commonwhore Australia's number one selling car.

Ford should use tests like this to their marketing advantage, but they will just sit back on their hands and wait for the next months V Facts to come out and get slaughtered yet again.

[block58]

http://www.carsales.com.au/advice/20...lcon-xr6-18258

Looks aside, I think we both agree the Falcon was the winner in this comparison. It's a better car in most areas. Which only adds to the mystery; why do they lag so far behind Commodore in the sales race? I get the feeling Ford still has some way to go before it shakes off the damage done by the AU Falcon.

So true...

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by block58

http://www.carsales.com.au/advice/20...lcon-xr6-18258



So true...

XR6 has trounced the SV6/S since the B-series days.

[SSD-85]

Originally Posted by vztrt

XR6 has trounced the SV6/S since the B-series days.

It has since the EF days. And someone with more information might even say since EBII...

[Deco28]

The 3.6SIDI engine is superior to the I6, remember, the I6 struggles to keep up with the detuned version in the Commodore currently.

The XR6 on the other hand is a better car.

The 3.0l well... they needed at least 3.2l...

[SSD-85]

^^ I wouldnt be the only one to suggest that the I6 is not running at its full capability either.....

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by Deco28

The 3.6SIDI engine is superior to the I6, remember, the I6 struggles to keep up with the detuned version in the Commodore currently.

The XR6 on the other hand is a better car.

The 3.0l well... they needed at least 3.2l...

On a track the commode does not come close, which is what the sv6 was supposed to be the sporty commodore.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by block58

http://www.carsales.com.au/advice/20...lcon-xr6-18258



So true...

Its lack of wagon, almost 15,000 Commodores last year were wagons, and thats without a LPG version anymore!

Im looking at a Holden for the first time, solely on the fact I can get a wagon in SV6, Calais or SS trim. Ive owned nothing but Fords, and yet Im considering a Holden - hell hath frozen over.

Anyone would prefer a Falcon over a Commodore, I have never seen a generation of Falcon be so superior over a Commodore. Even in the VZ/BA days there seem to be some victories to the Holden. But nowadays the Ford is trumping it.

The old 'blame it on the AU days' is rubbish, people move on and they consider the current product. Any lack of sales can no longer be blamed on the past, either they are not selling it right, not building it right, or not pricing it right.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

Ford should use tests like this to their marketing advantage, but they will just sit back on their hands and wait for the next months V Facts to come out and get slaughtered yet again.

Have you been to Ford.com.au lately?? They have had the drive test up for months & now they have the carpoint one up.. Considering the falcon is the most clicked on model in australia on the website, this is probably the best spots for it!!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Im looking at a Holden for the first time, solely on the fact I can get a wagon in SV6, Calais or SS trim. Ive owned nothing but Fords, and yet Im considering a Holden - hell hath frozen over.

why do you want a wagon? if its purely due to styling, then seeking professional help should cure you of whatever it is you have...

if its for space, have you compared the luggage capacity of the holden wagon with a falcon sedan boot? not much in it.

as for holdens winning the sales war, holden could wack a badge on a ******** and people would buy it.

[naddis01]

People dont just buy wagons for the space. The wider, generally lower, boot opening simply makes them more practical.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by prydey

why do you want a wagon? if its purely due to styling, then seeking professional help should cure you of whatever it is you have...

if its for space, have you compared the luggage capacity of the holden wagon with a falcon sedan boot? not much in it.

as for holdens winning the sales war, holden could wack a badge on a ******** and people would buy it.

Haha, I actually think the Holden wagon is one of the best looking family cars on the road. But I do have an odd taste in cars sometimes.

Its the versatility, when the kids are in the back- the dog can jump in the boot. When I mow my mums lawns I can fold down the seat and whack the lawnmower in there. One of my sons does BMXing, we can chuck his bike in the back. We use a lot of gear when doing cross-country horse riding and it also would be good to have more height in the boot.

Plus sedans are kinda boring, lately I just think of them as government camrys or rental cars. I want a sporty and luxurious roomy hatch or a wagon. Apart from being a Commodore (boo) - the Sportwagon is a bloody good package.

[SSD-85]

On the subject of XR6 wagons, does anyone know how well the last did in sales? (EF if im not mistaken). I know the market has changed since then, but might be an interesting base for conversation (in another thread of course)

[prydey]

Originally Posted by naddis01

People dont just buy wagons for the space. The wider, generally lower, boot opening simply makes them more practical.

so why don't they sell. the current set up is not a fair comparison in the ford stable but the reason it is like this is simply due to the fact that the wagon wasn't selling in the first place. in the ed/ef range, ford had the whole range of wagons, except xr8. in the couple of years the ED was on sale (93/94), around 400 xr6 wagons sold. in the EF series (94/95) only 476 xr6 wagons sold. there simply was no market for them. same with fairmont and ghia wagons.

the fact that the holden wagon appears to be selling doesn't really mean anything. daewoo could barely buy a sale when they were in aus, and yet now that they are back except with holden badging, they are selling in droves.

[Chopped]

GM Daewoo < GM OWN them. The new flock of GM Daewoo are GM global product based on global platforms. (don't think old Daewoo because they died!)

14000 Sportwagons for 2009 is a pretty good figure when you see the sedan number was about 28000. 4600 Hearsewagons for Ford. So combining both brands you get about 20000 wagons in total.

If 25% of the wagon market wants "lot's of space", what do the other 75% want ?

[duaned]

Originally Posted by Chopped

If 25% of the wagon market wants "lot's of space", what do the other 75% want ?

According to the roads here in Newcastle, Bloody 4WD's!

[Falc'man]

Rigged. It should have been 5/5; how can the SV6 win on comfort?

Would you feel comfortable knowing you've just bought a car that would get handed it's backside around a circuit by something with 20 less hp? I think not.

Or maybe that you've just bought a car with an "aging interior" instead of the Falcon that "strikes you as a more modern and appealing interior design"?

I say this in jest of course, but I wonder how hard they tried not to make it 5/5. TWICE!

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

I say this in jest of course, but I wonder how hard they tried not to make it 5/5. TWICE!

Pretty bloody hard. Its all opinion after all, but when you list the outcomes of tests in that simplified form, the winner looks all the better and loser....well...

Simple fact is that if you look at it point by point the commodore strugles to make a valid case. Apart from the notional more advanced engine, personal preferences in styling and a bigger on paper HP (for SV6 versus XR6 anyway) there is really no area the commodore can compete with FG. Just none. It does not burn any less fuel (appreciably at least....in fact is may burn more), its greater badge HP is not translated to the road, its transmissions are not as good, nor its ride, NVH, interior or build.

The SIDI 'engine upgrade' was its only chance to be even half competitive since a win there would have almost balanced out its other deficiencies...but now that is not working well to use a phrase coined by Greg Murphy (of all people) at a VE launch promo video, 'why would you buy one?'. He said that as a PR stunt in reference to a current falcon of the time (BF).... Fair enough, he was on the Holden payroll. Difference is it wasn't reallly true (VE never had it over BF....at least not convincingly). Its looking pretty true for the VE versus the FG though....

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Deco28

The 3.6SIDI engine is superior to the I6, remember, the I6 struggles to keep up with the detuned version in the Commodore currently.

The XR6 on the other hand is a better car.

The 3.0l well... they needed at least 3.2l...

Can't agree with any of this post really.....except the bit about the XR6 being the better car....

The 3.6 SIDI engine is NOT superior to the I6. How you come to that conclusion is baffling not only because numerous reviews have said otherwise but just based on a simple look at the spec sheets makes it clear enough. The SIDI tech (Direct injection) is a more 'modern' technology (though it has been aroun for years) but that alone does not make it a superior engine. The greater peak HP of 210 kw versus 195 doesn't either...peak power is only one of many engine benchmarks and while it may come as a surprise to some its not even one of the top 5 most important....

The SIDI engine has been shown (even in 3.6 form) to not propel the VE any faster than the I6 does FG (save perhaps a few tenths), nor does it burn any less fuel (with similar weight/gearing). Its NVH is not appreicably superior, and its driveability (torque delivery etc) is arguably inferior.... How does any of this make it better?

And before you say 'but the Holden version is detuned'....well may i say 'so what'. It competes in the Aus market in the Commodore versus the Falcon....its a moot point what version of the engine achieves overseas (often with diff. fuel qualities and local compliance issues). Moreover, given the very high torque figure if Ford wanted to make more peak power (the only area the 3.6 SIDI would ever have any hope of winning) they woud only need to rev it higher...and not much higher then it does now (with associated tuning changes).

Its also worth noting there is plenty of evidence around (online etc.) that show the alloytec to be a pretty sub standard design generally, DI or not. The ford 3.7 duratec V6 (notional I6 replacmeent long term) has no problem matching and eclipsing the 3.6 DI (in US cadilac spec!) without DI....so its not like Ford has anything to worry about from the GM front RE V6s any time soon.....

[Falc'man]

Keelan, he means the US 227kW version.

[BHDOGS]

Can you imagine what would happen if holden listened to what ford people know is wrong with the holden and fixed it it would rule the roads for good haha

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Keelan, he means the US 227kW version.

Yes....figured as much. Hence this bit in my post....

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

And before you say 'but the Holden version is detuned'....well may i say 'so what'. It competes in the Aus market in the Commodore versus the Falcon....its a moot point what version of the engine achieves overseas (often with diff. fuel qualities and local compliance issues). Moreover, given the very high torque figure if Ford wanted to make more peak power (the only area the 3.6 SIDI would ever have any hope of winning) they woud only need to rev it higher...and not much higher then it does now (with associated tuning changes)

I don't doubt Ford could match the Cadilac US version with the I6....do you Youssef? As i also noted if Ford was ever woried they couldn't, they can always grab the 3.7 duratec (which will happen longer term anyway i'd say) which has no issues keeping up with the DI alloytec......just ask the mustang engineers....