VFacts Jan 2010

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Archilino

IF holden decide to produce the cruze locally, remember production it has been delayed...

Not a hard ask for them considering they will be CKD imports.

[russellw]

The first set of graphical data has been uploaded to the Tech Area now.

Cheers
Russ

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wally

Not a hard ask for them considering they will be CKD imports.

I think the issue will be cost (esp with the supposed gov. required local content) and development. The hatch version is supposed to be a holden lead design and bugger all has been done on it development wise. No mules seen (internationally even) and holden refused to even confirm the basic mech specs (e.g. what rear suspension it would have....irs or the sedan torsion bar...).

Holden probably will build it in the end (too much invested in political capital) but it won't make them very much money....and will just canibalise falling VE sales while their at it.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by whales

Only 672 Captiva sold about twice as many!
I still say no diesel in the Territory is killing it.

I'd say lack of a tangible update in 6 years is what is killing Territory sales more than anything. And supply.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I think the issue will be cost (esp with the supposed gov. required local content) and development. The hatch version is supposed to be a holden lead design and bugger all has been done on it development wise. No mules seen (internationally even) and holden refused to even confirm the basic mech specs (e.g. what rear suspension it would have....irs or the sedan torsion bar...).

Holden probably will build it in the end (too much invested in political capital) but it won't make them very much money....and will just canibalise falling VE sales while their at it.

I would suggest the local content will be the labour and setup cost. Otherwise you are correct, very few of the usual suspects, are developing anything.

Not sure about the sales crystal balling, especially as the revised commodore will be out by then too along with the export models. Holden could be up for a very busy twelve months and hopefully Ford too if it can get its message to the public.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wally

I would suggest the local content will be the labour and setup cost. Otherwise you are correct, very few of the usual suspects, are developing anything.

Not sure about the sales crystal balling, especially as the revised commodore will be out by then too along with the export models. Holden could be up for a very busy twelve months and hopefully Ford too if it can get its message to the public.

The comment RE ve sales canibalisation more so the fleet basis of VE. At present it is probably 40-50% large fleet sales (25% more user chooser) so if these fleets are going to 4 pot policies (EB falcon may help ford here) then you can bet your bacon they will go over to cruze, espeically once locally built. So plant throughput will not go up as much as holden claims since Cruze will just replace commodore. Of course possible VE exports and cruze private sales have to be factored in but as a money spinner i don't see it....

PLus, the continual delays meen it will be launched just as new focus, mazda 3 update come out and no matter how much work holden does it will never compete with those cars on a quality basis (or even profit margin once ford sources focus from thailand...). It is seen whithin GM as the 'poor mans' astra...and since astra will have a hard enough job versus new focus how on earth will cruze compete??

I think Ford's backdown on focus (albeit embarrasing) may turn out to be a very smart move...they have dodged a real bullet on that i think. When you consider that Holden claims (at least initially) there are no plans to export cruze (why woudl they with korea building it for less) i think its one of holdens' best ever achievements....at PR spin....and that is saying something.

[Wally]

Why is "spin" continually used in this forum in regard to Holden? All companies have spin, all marketing is spin, even various members here are full into spin. People are kidding themselves if they think a corporation is pure as the driven snow. Anyone in sales knows the pareto principle applies, especially in terms of emotional purchase ... for both Holden and Ford I would wager.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wally

Why is "spin" continually used in this forum in regard to Holden? All companies have spin, all marketing is spin, even various members here are full into spin. People are kidding themselves if they think a corporation is pure as the driven snow. Anyone in sales knows the pareto principle applies, especially in terms of emotional purchase ... for both Holden and Ford I would wager.

Hey no argument from me....i never said in my post other companies (incl. ford) dont 'spin' stuff. Maybe ford aren't as good at it, but that is another debate RE marketing etc. that has been done to death.

Surely you aren't denying though Wally that with Holden (and GM generally) in such doodoo and many (if not all) of their products strugling for any real competitiveness (as found my a cross section of media reviews) they have become masters of 'flexible' story telling. I mean its one thing, for example, to say that when Ford 'spins' stories where they make out the Fiesta econetic to be a better fuel miser than the prius (even though it is a fair bit smaller and in a diff. class) its the same as claiming entire car production and engineering projects will happen and then just renegging. And in several cases (hybrid commodore by 2010??) DENYING THEY EVEN SAID IT.

I'm sure you don't want to have a full list given of all tall tales Holden has spun in just the last few years....suffice is to say i'd be shocked if their laundry list of half and full untruths wasn't longer than most of the rest of the industry combined. Where talking about the guys that claimed they would 'out engineer' their competitors only to have one of the most disapointing new tech launches in recent australian automotive memory (yes im talking about the poor selling and very much sub-engineered SIDI V6 range....).

You are right alot of guys on here (i'd admit myself included) directly or indirectly 'spin' for ford (god knows we are better at it then the company...) but you surely aren't saying that because other companies engage in spin we are just supposed to swallow it when holden does? I'm skeptical of all companies, Ford included (despite what you may imply) but anyone that believes anything that comes out of the mouths of Holden corporate are fooling themselves without taking a good hard look at the facts. FFS they told everyone they were 'going fine' while recieving a $200m loan from the taxpayers......

[Wally]

No I'm not saying anything, but wondering why it's necessary to put negative associations on common acceptable practices.

In regard to Holden being inferior to Ford, well that depends on what neasure you use. To me it's like arguing what end of a boiled egg you should put the spoon in, either way it's not the same as eggs benedict.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by outback_ute

Ford sale for month (followed by segment place and share %):
[code]Fiesta 962 5 9.3
Focus 840 7 4.9
Mondeo 438 5 11.1
Falcon 2318 2 33.4
Escape 190 13 2.5
Territory 672 4 10.3
Falcon Ute 479 3 11.7
Ranger 4x2 326 5 7.9
Ranger 4x4 395 7 6.1
Transit 84 6 4.4
Transit C/C 18 2 23.7[/code]
Total 6722 vehicles unless I have missed anything. Interesting to see 1 Monaro sale!

Re the Cruze, I understand it is now the same platform as the Astra with a cheaper torsion bar rear suspension rather than independent. This is a completely different situation than the old Lacetti/Viva.

Falcon/territory combined has 43.7 share, positive numbers for the RWD flacon future.

It sh*ts me to tears that Holden sells cars because of lame adds and lion badges.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Ummm Falcon ute...

What happen FORD!! 50% Investment allowance had tradies / companies looking for these things.. Ford could have easily sold 1500 utes in December if they actually had stock...

Your killing me!!

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Wally

No I'm not saying anything, but wondering why it's necessary to put negative associations on common acceptable practices.

In regard to Holden being inferior to Ford, well that depends on what neasure you use. To me it's like arguing what end of a boiled egg you should put the spoon in, either way it's not the same as eggs benedict.

I think the negative associations is partial pent up anger at how one company gets accused of 'spin' yet another (e.g. holden) it is reported and understood by the mass populace as 'fact'. PR spin may be fact but it is only successful if it is taken as factual....thankfully the holden faithful are alot less sceptical and the general populace alot more generous.

As for the holden inferiority thing well i can't convince you either way since you seem to think both are 'below par'...or at least both are equally uninspiring. We all know you are far from a Ford fan (despite owning them and being on here) which is ok by me but product is product and i know which horse i'd back...ford fan or not. And its not the pathological liar....

Getting back on topic a bit....

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

Ummm Falcon ute...

What happen FORD!! 50% Investment allowance had tradies / companies looking for these things.. Ford could have easily sold 1500 utes in December if they actually had stock...

Your killing me!!

Supply supply supply. Ford's conservatism has hurt them in this case. It will pick up next month for sure but it would be nice to see a bit more confidence in terms of forward production. Still, could be worse, at least the 500 they did sell were good product which should engender repeat business.....

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

Ummm Falcon ute...

What happen FORD!! 50% Investment allowance had tradies / companies looking for these things.. Ford could have easily sold 1500 utes in December if they actually had stock...

Your killing me!!

They sold 1,342 of them in Dec09 with the factory closed after the 18th!! That was about as good as you an get I think. You can't just speed up the plant for month one & then slow it down again for a different month... Dont forget eveyone is (maybe that is now was) excepting a slow qtr1 & 2 of 2010.. So no point in speeding up plant if your forecasting a slow 6 months..

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I'd say lack of a tangible update in 6 years is what is killing Territory sales more than anything. And supply.

Certainly doesn't help Territory. But it's sales did pretty much double after the 'facelift' last year to 1200 a month. I think Ford might have been a little suprised actually.

But, yes, the new version coming in 12mths along with a diesel will give it a real crack at achieving 2,000 sales a month once again.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Supply supply supply. Ford's conservatism has hurt them in this case. It will pick up next month for sure but it would be nice to see a bit more confidence in terms of forward production. Still, could be worse, at least the 500 they did sell were good product which should engender repeat business.....

Conservatism served Ford well when the market was falling. But, it seems very much that the market is back on the up. I wonder how much of January business was people unable to get their cars at the end of last year? February, may be the real litmus test.

Clearly stock supply is drastically low. Ford therefore need overtime and soon to fill the void. Don't think my 2010 prediction of Broadmeadows profitably building 60-65,000 is too far out!

[snappy]

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

Ummm Falcon ute...

What happen FORD!! 50% Investment allowance had tradies / companies looking for these things.. Ford could have easily sold 1500 utes in December if they actually had stock...

Your killing me!!

It not stock you only needed to sign on the .......... line before december not have the car in posession .
Tradies dont want them there is no dual cab in falcon models the
Ranger is not popular many people ive spoken to dont like the look of it myself included same goes for the falcon ute they need to offer a tray on xr models an unfortunately the wagon's are outdated .
Funny thing i was trying . I wanted to cash in on the 50% tax incentive but not one company had anything i wanted to buy , all 4x4/4x2 are uncofortable to drive and the interiors are shocking , maybe ive been spoiled buy the ute i have now . I have never been so depressed when looking for a new car .

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by russellw

The first set of graphical data has been uploaded to the Tech Area now.

Cheers
Russ

A good read as always! Thanks Russ.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by snappy

It not stock you only needed to sign on the .......... line before december not have the car in posession .
Tradies dont want them there is no dual cab in falcon models the
Ranger is not popular many people ive spoken to dont like the look of it myself included same goes for the falcon ute they need to offer a tray on xr models an unfortunately the wagon's are outdated .
Funny thing i was trying . I wanted to cash in on the 50% tax incentive but not one company had anything i wanted to buy , all 4x4/4x2 are uncofortable to drive and the interiors are shocking , maybe ive been spoiled buy the ute i have now . I have never been so depressed when looking for a new car .

I agree that a tray back on the XR range would go well. But, couldn't you have just sold the 'styleside' uteback and bought an aftermarket aluminium tray?

PS Yes you have been spoilt.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

As for the holden inferiority thing well i can't convince you either way since you seem to think both are 'below par'...or at least both are equally uninspiring. We all know you are far from a Ford fan (despite owning them and being on here) which is ok by me but product is product and i know which horse i'd back...ford fan or not. And its not the pathological liar....

Not sure what you are saying, but let's keep the thread in context. Members like yourself can't get your head around the impudence of Holden flogging sub standard product as if it's equal to the far superior Ford product, right? Furthermore you can't fathom how gullible the Australian public are in buying said POS commodores in favour of the beloved Falcon? Surely by now you have come to recognise the sameness of the indignation, the "spin", the "bogans', the "commonwhores" and other witty posts that occurs every month following the Vfacts.



Yes, I am ambivalent when it comes to Ford and Holden product. That is hard for people with a binary thought process as it creates confusion and aggression.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by phillyc

I agree that a tray back on the XR range would go well. But, couldn't you have just sold the 'styleside' uteback and bought an aftermarket aluminium tray?

PS Yes you have been spoilt.

Yeah i know you can but you should not have to , it probly cost 5k from ford and you can sell it for 1k , then spend another 3k-5k on a steel tray . Its just not a good start .


the spoilt thing i think your right but name a commercial vechicle that is comfortable , economical , looks good , work capable and nice to drive ?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by snappy

...... they need to offer a tray on xr models an unfortunately the wagon's are outdated .
Funny thing i was trying . I wanted to cash in on the 50% tax incentive but not one company had anything i wanted to buy , all 4x4/4x2 are uncofortable to drive and the interiors are shocking , maybe ive been spoiled buy the ute i have now . I have never been so depressed when looking for a new car .

They do...

XR6 is available with a Tray ...

Ford Website

[snappy]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

They do...

XR6 is available with a Tray ...



Ford Website

Well forgot about that one , i was thinking about it last year but ford wanted 20k change over.
be allright if i didnt have the ute i have now , but in my eyes it was a step backwards 6t or 8 for me please.

[russellw]

The Supplementary Statistical data is uploaded into the Tech area now.

Please note: the data for each of the previous six or so years we have been doing this is now filed by year; the annual summaries are also in their own folder as are the FPV Statistics.

Cheers
Russ

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

He is already.. Dealers are very low on stock, and some models are extinct.. like F6 Sedans, apparently theres none coming for a while due a part supplier from overseas not being able to supply parts...

Its bad when you go to a Ford dealer and they only have 6 Falcons in stock when once upon a time they would have close to 70....

As for Ranger Dual cabs they are months away... Same story cant supply.. The only cars in big stock numbers are Fiestas, 12 months you couldnt get a Zetec delivered for months, now you can get one in a few hours!

Would explain why F6 production over the past few days has shot up.

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by naddis01

How did Falcon sedan compare to Commie sedan?

Yes, but those figures include the wagons. I was simply asking if anyone has the sedan sales, not who did the better job, as the Falcon sedan has outsold the Commodore sedan for the past couple of months.

So does anyone have these figures?

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Yes, but those figures include the wagons. I was simply asking if anyone has the sedan sales, not who did the better job, as the Falcon sedan has outsold the Commodore sedan for the past couple of months.

So does anyone have these figures?

I'd be interested to know that too. Going on the recent past, GMH have sold 3,800 Commodores a month & 1,200 have been wagons. Ford has been selling 2,800 Falcons a month & 400 of those are wagons. The wagon split is about 30% at GMH & 15% at Ford.

This was the sales for January - Holden Commodore (3241), Ford Falcon (2318). Using the same split you'd get 2300 VE sedans & 2000 FG sedans.

If anyone has the info (Russ?!) it would be good to know actuals!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Yes, but those figures include the wagons. I was simply asking if anyone has the sedan sales, not who did the better job, as the Falcon sedan has outsold the Commodore sedan for the past couple of months.

So does anyone have these figures?

Originally Posted by phillyc

I'd be interested to know that too. Going on the recent past, GMH have sold 3,800 Commodores a month & 1,200 have been wagons. Ford has been selling 2,800 Falcons a month & 400 of those are wagons. The wagon split is about 30% at GMH & 15% at Ford.

This was the sales for January - Holden Commodore (3241), Ford Falcon (2318). Using the same split you'd get 2300 VE sedans & 2000 FG sedans.

If anyone has the info (Russ?!) it would be good to know actuals!

In essence the difference between Falcon and Commodore sales is that
Holden has a wagon that sells around 1,000-1,500/month.
There could be a strong mess age there for Ford to keep pursuing private
buyers instead of worrying about fleet hacks and grey nomads.
Falcon sportswagon in G and XR series would have a much higher profit margin too....

Of late Territory now sells 60% high series to 40% low seres/RWD - buyers want the ZF..
There could now be a switch in demographic now wanting a Falcon sportswagon instead...

[russellw]

Unfortunately the data doesn't breakdown the numbers but I am sure Ford would have them and I shall ask next week.

Cheers
Russ

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by snappy

It not stock you only needed to sign on the .......... line before december not have the car in posession .
Tradies dont want them there is no dual cab in falcon models the
Ranger is not popular many people ive spoken to dont like the look of it myself included same goes for the falcon ute they need to offer a tray on xr models an unfortunately the wagon's are outdated .
Funny thing i was trying . I wanted to cash in on the 50% tax incentive but not one company had anything i wanted to buy , all 4x4/4x2 are uncofortable to drive and the interiors are shocking , maybe ive been spoiled buy the ute i have now . I have never been so depressed when looking for a new car .

Rangers are popular, just cant get supply of them... Havent been able to for about 5 months!

[snappy]

Originally Posted by bfiipursuit

Rangers are popular, just cant get supply of them... Havent been able to for about 5 months!

Ill take your word for it .
The tradesman i associate with seem to put to the bottom of the list of desirable work horses.