Black box' in car crash court case

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

There will always be a tendency to rely on a recording device... memory is fallible, witnesses will disagree on what happened, they can't accurately estimate speeds etc.

From my experience, recording devices can be quite inaccurate and I’ve been driving tracked vehicles since 1994. Fortunately, for me, I’ve never had to go to court to discredit a radar or speed camera with data from a Fleetcom or GPS tracking device but I know a few who have. Some have been successful simply because the coppers withdrew the charge on the morning of the case, others have not been successful because the magistrate has taken the word of the police who claim that their equipment is “a scientific device” and could not possibly be wrong.

So is this another situation where the police are having a bet each way? They are more than willing to dismiss data from Fleetcoms and the like when it suits them, but they want to hang you with the same data when they want to prove guilt.

[Bossxr8]

ECU data has been used once before in the US to help prove a manslaughter conviction against a driver who hit a child crossing a street at nearly double the speed limit. It was at least 4-5 years ago.

[sk8xr8]

at the risk of throwing a spanner in the works here, police in the United Kingdom have this in their police cars, it is used as evidence in courts for high speed police chaces, it shows a number of readings in the car, from throttle input, to brake and steering input, to lateral and longtitudinal G-force's, in the event that a serious accident takes place the courts can request the data to ensure that the police were not placing excessive pressure on the fleeing subject as to resort in T/A, it is new technology but has proved to be invaluable so far, the data is shown in conjunction with the dash camera and gives a 100% idea of the circumstances, also helps to show if the officer was pushing the vehicle to extremes, this is frowned upon in the courts if it is proven that an officer is nearing the limit of his vehicle in public areas aswell...

dont know if that makes a difference to anyones opinion.

[sk8xr8]

at the risk of throwing a spanner in the works here, police in the United Kingdom have this in their police cars, it is used as evidence in courts for high speed police chaces, it shows a number of readings in the car, from throttle input, to brake and steering input, to lateral and longtitudinal G-force's, in the event that a serious accident takes place the courts can request the data to ensure that the police were not placing excessive pressure on the fleeing subject as to resort in T/A, it is new technology but has proved to be invaluable so far, the data is shown in conjunction with the dash camera and gives a 100% idea of the circumstances, also helps to show if the officer was pushing the vehicle to extremes, this is frowned upon in the courts if it is proven that an officer is nearing the limit of his vehicle in public areas aswell...

dont know if that makes a difference to anyones opinion.

[noisytim]

The data stored in a car's computers could also help prove a person is innocent and telling the truth. Evidence cuts both ways.

If I were accused of a serious traffic offence and I wasn't at fault and doing everything right I would insist the police take the computer and analyse it. If the police didn't take it, that could discredit their case and go in your favour, even if you were at fault - especially if there were no other witnesses.

The reason the police would have used the US company to download and interpret the data is that they are experts, and can prove to the court their experience and long-term expertise. Evidence of such a technical and specialist nature has to presented to court by an expert for it to be credible, otherwise it will be thrown out of court. Coppers don't give evidence about DNA results in court, scientist do - it's the same thing.

[vztrt]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/31/r...otive-black-b/

Report: U.S. safety bill could triple cost of automotive black boxes to $5,000

by Zach Bowman (RSS feed) on May 31st 2010 at 6:41PM

When word first came down that Congress was looking to mandate that all new vehicles to be sold with Event Data Recorders, we knew that the added tech was going to be pricey. According to Automotive News, if legislators have their way, the new automotive black boxes will need to be both fire resistant and waterproof. Add in a significant amount of recording time before and after an accident, and suddenly the price tag per unit could soar up to a lofty $4,000 to $5,000. Currently, the EDRs track about five seconds worth of information just before an accident, though some legislators are pushing for up to 75 seconds of recording pre-crash. Between the fire insulation and added recording time, analysts believe the devices will swell to shoebox size, also creating a new packaging issue for automakers.

And who's going to be shelling out the cash for the indestructible, mammoth recorders? The short answer is the automakers, though you can bet they won't just be soaking up the cost out of the goodness of their hearts. Odds are that $4,000-per-box price tag will be passed right along to consumers if such devices become law, so don't be surprised to see sticker prices climb if the boxes become mandatory in 2015.

[Source: Automotive News – sub. req.]

[Ross-b]

just to throw more fuel to fire

the car lost control, this could implies the wheels lost traction

sure for this to happen in most cases the driver wasn't driving to the conditions
anyway
to the point
if the wheels were slipping the speed reading would have been higher then actual speed traveled
im led to believe the speed limit was around the 100 - 110
and the readings did have a wide range
at point of impact id imagine traction would have been regained briefly (driver hitting something and getting off the accelerator + forces working against the car leads us to believe that wheel seed and road speed would have evened out)
obviously with this theory the driver would have been accelerating with no traction
so this isnt an indication of speeding
its an indication of the driver losing control around a corner freaking out and not letting off the accelerator

just some food for though
my theory doesn't clear the driver of any neg driving charges

its more an extra thing to think about if this were to be used under different circumstances

[burnz]

Originally Posted by noisytim

The data stored in a car's computers could also help prove a person is innocent and telling the truth. Evidence cuts both ways.

If I were accused of a serious traffic offence and I wasn't at fault and doing everything right I would insist the police take the computer and analyse it. If the police didn't take it, that could discredit their case and go in your favour, even if you were at fault - especially if there were no other witnesses.

The reason the police would have used the US company to download and interpret the data is that they are experts, and can prove to the court their experience and long-term expertise. Evidence of such a technical and specialist nature has to presented to court by an expert for it to be credible, otherwise it will be thrown out of court. Coppers don't give evidence about DNA results in court, scientist do - it's the same thing.

and their lies the problem, a radar/lidar is classed as an instument of accuracy.
black boxes, gps, speed limiter, dynos. are inadmissable in court.

[vztrt]

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/11/r...ive-black-box/

Report: Intel developing new automotive black box

by Zach Bowman (RSS feed) on Jul 11th 2010 at 5:35PM

Big Brother really wants to get into your future vehicle. Intel is currently hard at work on the next generation of vehicle event data recorders, the infamous black boxes that Congress has clamored for since Toyota's unintended acceleration problems dominated headlines earlier this year. According to The New York Times, these new black boxes may do a lot more than just record things like vehicle speed and whether you're wearing your seatbelt. Intel's prototype will incorporate GPS and all of a vehicle's onboard cameras for real-time mapping of the road conditions.

As if that's not intrusive enough, Intel proposes that the EDRs record up to 30 seconds of interior video as well. While this level of information would likely prove helpful in determining who's at fault in an accident, there's the prickly question of who owns that information once it's stored in the vehicle. Does it belong to vehicle manufacturers as it does now? Should the government be able to lay claim to it without a warrant? Will insurance companies be able to use EDR data any way they see fit, or does it belong to the owner of the vehicle? This could get ugly, and it probably will before all's said and done.

[Source: The New York Times]

[MO]

@vztrt,oh boy its getting ridiculous,soon they'll be wanting to put microchips in us. And I think it has been mooted somewhere already.

[vztrt]

http://www.caradvice.com.au/74086/in...-box-for-cars/

Intel works on designing a ‘black box’ for cars
By Brett Davis | July 13th, 2010

As reported by Autocar this week, computer giant, Intel, have been working on the development of a black box for cars. The ‘box’ could constantly record a car’s movements prior to a crash. The recordings could then be investigated by the police to resolve any mystery as to the cause and fault of an accident.



Furthermore, these recordings could also be passed onto crash investigation units that could then determine exactly how the driver lost control of the vehicle in the first place. This could help improve road safety in the future as research teams could work directly at eliminating the errors, rather than throwing vague assumptions into the air, such as ‘speed was the number one factor’.

The black box would record details of the throttle position, brake pressure, steering inputs and even incorporate video recordings via internal and external cameras. The Intel team has also gone as far as saying the technology could even open up the possibility of cars being constantly connected to the internet so the car could automatically alert authorities – and even other motorists – of car crash locations, live. This could put an end to all car accident mysteries and help reduce hazards on the road.

Justin Ratner, director of Intel Laboratories, said in the report with Autocar,

“We are looking at a whole range of enhancements that will improve the driving experience, safety and security of vehicles. The intelligent vehicle is what we are talking about here. Once a car is connected [to the internet] all sorts of interesting possibilities present themselves.”

The report also outlined the possibility of the system being linked up to insurance companies. This could speed up policy process times and also, potentially, reduce insurance premiums. Although in the report, an insurance representative was quick to say that any reduction in insurance premiums would only occur if there weren’t any additional repair costs to factor in due to the technology placed in the car.

Insurance companies could also choose not to pay out customers at fault of an accident under scrutiny and leverage of the black box recordings.

Is it getting a little too personal though, is it almost an invasion of privacy? Let us know what you think.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Ross-b

just to throw more fuel to fire

the car lost control, this could implies the wheels lost traction

sure for this to happen in most cases the driver wasn't driving to the conditions
anyway
to the point
if the wheels were slipping the speed reading would have been higher then actual speed traveledim led to believe the speed limit was around the 100 - 110
and the readings did have a wide range
at point of impact id imagine traction would have been regained briefly (driver hitting something and getting off the accelerator + forces working against the car leads us to believe that wheel seed and road speed would have evened out)
obviously with this theory the driver would have been accelerating with no traction
so this isnt an indication of speeding
its an indication of the driver losing control around a corner freaking out and not letting off the accelerator

just some food for though
my theory doesn't clear the driver of any neg driving charges

its more an extra thing to think about if this were to be used under different circumstances

This totally depends on the Car. For Example, In a BA Falcon, this would not hold as the speed is taken from the Front left wheel and as such, wouldnt change speed if the car was slipping/slidding.

[MO]

@Dan,now we are getting bloody ridiculous and it is an invasion of privacy.
There goes any funny business with your significant other in the car!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by MO

@Dan,now we are getting bloody ridiculous and it is an invasion of privacy.
There goes any funny business with your significant other in the car!

hahah, too much rocking it sets the immobiliser off?? Or activates the secret camera?

[The Stylist]

For those interested, here's the outcome of the court case in question.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...onvicts-driver

I think it sets a precedent here in New Zealand.

[Full Noise]

Originally Posted by The Stylist

For those interested, here's the outcome of the court case in question.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...onvicts-driver

I think it sets a precedent here in New Zealand.

Thanks for posting this. I think that there will be some very smart legal people working on ways to prevent this from happening in Australia.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Thanks for posting this. I think that there will be some very smart legal people working on ways to prevent this from happening in Australia.

I would also suggest there will be some very smart legal people working on ways to make sure it happens in Australia!!

[saber]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

I suspect that this may be another example of someone not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.

+1

I wish the family of the man who was injured all the best. He was at the peak of his life, and it has been tragically taken away from him. His life (and the life of his friends and family) will never be the same.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

It took fire crew more than an hour to cut Mr Gilbert-Kerr free. He fractured his arms, legs, pelvis and left hip, and lost the top of his scalp. He spent eight months in hospital, and has no mobility in one hand.

Hohaia suffered minor injuries.

wow, safer in a HSV than a mercedes?

i envisage a day when every car will have a black-box like aircraft, AND it'll be monitored to see if you EVER speed, sorta like heavy vehicles have

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

AND it'll be monitored to see if you EVER speed, sorta like heavy vehicles have

Yeah. It's great fun having management sitting alongside you every night

[MO]

As gasolane said its already in the trucking game and as I said earlier it will more than likely come to you.

[ryanstev]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

wow, safer in a HSV than a mercedes?

i envisage a day when every car will have a black-box like aircraft, AND it'll be monitored to see if you EVER speed, sorta like heavy vehicles have

He was the significantly faster car, at the collision he slowed from the impact, the other driver was instantly shunted backwards.

[MO]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

wow, safer in a HSV than a mercedes?

i envisage a day when every car will have a black-box like aircraft, AND it'll be monitored to see if you EVER speed, sorta like heavy vehicles have

As for HSV being safer than Mercedes a lot depends on the age of the car and its condition e.g. rust in structural areas etc which can cause the vehicle to basically fall apart when hit and then there is the angle of impact.

There are just so many variables that come into play in MVA's are there any pics of the cars?

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

wow, safer in a HSV than a mercedes?

Given his speed he probably had the advantage of greater momentum, and considering it was a 1973 Merc not surprising a late model HSV has come out better.

Typically weak sentence

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Given his speed he probably had the advantage of greater momentum, and considering it was a 1973 Merc not surprising a late model HSV has come out better.

Typically weak sentence

i didnt realise it was an old car. still graphic demonstratioin of survivability

[vztrt]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/24/n...rs-next-month/

Report: NHTSA expected to mandate black boxes in all cars next month

by Jeff Glucker (RSS feed) on May 24th 2011 at 2:31PM

Are you ready for a black box to be installed in your car? The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration apparently is. According to a new report from Wired, NHTSA is expected to rule next month that all new cars will need to carry just such a device.

Now, before you get all "Screw the Gubment!" in the comments, you should know that many modern cars already have black box systems installed – you might have one and not even know it. General Motors, for instance, has been installed the electronic data recorders since the 1990s, on almost all vehicles fitted with airbags.

The concern for most drivers, however, lies with what type of information is captured, and who has access to it. Also, different automakers use different Electronic Data Recorder devices. A black box standard needs to be developed, which would allow for the data retrieved from an EDR to be consistent regardless of the vehicle make it's pulled from.

Some view this mandate as an invasion of motorists' privacy. However, the data recovered from the black box systems can provide crucial insight into crash dynamics. Exactly who's allowed to view that information varies by state, of course, and only 13 states currently have legislation in place regulating the release of EDR data.

What do you think, is this a good idea, or a bad one? Have your say in Comments.
[Source: Wired]

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's why I favor point to point radar speed detection, it weeds out those
that speed everywhere and only slow down for the known single point radar traps....

How do average speed cameras work? Take a photo of your car then take it again at the second point and match the number plate?

I believe trucks SAFE T CAMS read a little electronic tag on the trucks window and match up to find it's average speed, but how do cars ones work?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Ben73

How do average speed cameras work? Take a photo of your car then take it again at the second point and match the number plate?

I believe trucks SAFE T CAMS read a little electronic tag on the trucks window and match up to find it's average speed, but how do cars ones work?

Well you got the first sentence right. Numberplate matching between two points.

Which is exactly what the Safe-T-Cams do over longer distances.

[ray38l]

Its worrying if they bring in tracking systems like some private companies have.
A big security company i worked for last year had a system that would tell them everything. They could tell when we were sitting in the drivers seat, how fast we were going, how fast we were accelerating, how hard we were braking, if we had seatbelts on, if we had passengers in the car and how many and all this in real time. Its just worrying how much information governments or company's can know about what people do.

[Supercharged]

Originally Posted by Ross-b

just to throw more fuel to fire

the car lost control, this could implies the wheels lost traction

sure for this to happen in most cases the driver wasn't driving to the conditions
anyway
to the point
if the wheels were slipping the speed reading would have been higher then actual speed traveled
im led to believe the speed limit was around the 100 - 110
and the readings did have a wide range
at point of impact id imagine traction would have been regained briefly (driver hitting something and getting off the accelerator + forces working against the car leads us to believe that wheel seed and road speed would have evened out)
obviously with this theory the driver would have been accelerating with no traction
so this isnt an indication of speeding
its an indication of the driver losing control around a corner freaking out and not letting off the accelerator

just some food for though
my theory doesn't clear the driver of any neg driving charges

its more an extra thing to think about if this were to be used under different circumstances

I agree, I don’t think it is a reliable way of measuring speed before an accident. If the vehicle measured it’s speed off the driveline and the vehicle was airborne with the accelerator on this is not measuring the vehicle speed but driveline speed, equally the vehicle could be in a side ways slide which would give a far lower reading than reality, either off the driveline or front wheels.