P platers in performance cars

[MITCHAY]

I drove my WRX on P plates all day and every day without issue.

Though it never did and will never apply to me, I think the whole idea of car bans a crock of **** and achieve nothing.

As for the topic. I don't see how being supervised on Ps and Ls being any different so go for it.

[Franco Cozzo]

I get my full license on March 9, 2014, assuming I don't lose it somehow in between now and then, 4 years here in Victoria.

What I find interesting is what is the difference between a P plater at 11:59PM and the fully licensed driver at 12:00AM, are they all the sudden perfectly fine to jump behind the wheel of a high powered car?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I get my full license on March 9, 2014, assuming I don't lose it somehow in between now and then, 4 years here in Victoria.

What I find interesting is what is the difference between a P plater at 11:59PM and the fully licensed driver at 12:00AM, are they all the sudden perfectly fine to jump behind the wheel of a high powered car?

So maybe some methodology to allow you to be trained on performance vehicles could be a good idea?

Or of course we could just ammend the law so that those who are P platers now are NEVER allowed to drive performance cars ever, even wen they get opens. Well they have shown that over 3 years they do not need performance cars so obviously they do not need tham later. Think of how much safer the roads will be and in 50 years there will be no performance cars left so the road toll will be zero......

Oh and if they put in more speed cameras it might even go negative....

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by flappist

Or of course we could just ammend the law so that those who are P platers now are NEVER allowed to drive performance cars ever, even wen they get opens. Well they have shown that over 3 years they do not need performance cars so obviously they do not need tham later. Think of how much safer the roads will be and in 50 years there will be no performance cars left so the road toll will be zero......

Oh and if they put in more speed cameras it might even go negative....

Honestly, can you ever see this happening??? Performance cars (what ever you perceive them as being) are only going to get more powerful. Geez, even a small 4 cyl is going to be more powerful; than our current range of standard V8's in the future.

Speed cameras.... . It's too late fining someone, once they've speed through a mobile one and crashed and killed themselves. (Not that I wish that upon anyone). How often do you see a mobile speed camera located at the bottom of a hill? Me, plenty of times. How often do you see speed cameras out on the highway, in the morning (ie round 8ish). Me plenty. And tut tut me, I got pinged doing 103 in a 100 zone at 7.30 in the morning, 20 kilometres out of a small town in Vic.

This whole banning system, the gov't has put in place, is one big farscial. There has been bugger all thought put into it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by flappist

So maybe some methodology to allow you to be trained on performance vehicles could be a good idea?

Or of course we could just ammend the law so that those who are P platers now are NEVER allowed to drive performance cars ever, even wen they get opens. Well they have shown that over 3 years they do not need performance cars so obviously they do not need tham later. Think of how much safer the roads will be and in 50 years there will be no performance cars left so the road toll will be zero......

Oh and if they put in more speed cameras it might even go negative....

Who are you trying to fool? Its cheaper to have a couple of dead kids and waste a small amount of money on band-aid "fixes" to make it look like something is being done about the issue.

My VCE English teacher once told me that the answer to all questions is money, and thats probably the most valuable thing I picked up in English when it comes to critical thinking.

[FAS33]

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Possibly the senior driver would have some minor qualification even something as low as 30 years plus 10 years of open license or whatever.

Maybe a blue or orange P plate shown when in ICUS.

What are the thoughts?[/quote]

and maybe have an S plate on for Seniors while your at it , or I for ediots, and maybe a H for hooning. T for tailgaters? etc. my opinion: itll never happen....but I can see where your goin, and thats why compulsory driver training is needed if you choose to drive a high perform vehicle after your red P's.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I get my full license on March 9, 2014, assuming I don't lose it somehow in between now and then, 4 years here in Victoria.

What I find interesting is what is the difference between a P plater at 11:59PM and the fully licensed driver at 12:00AM, are they all the sudden perfectly fine to jump behind the wheel of a high powered car?

It's not the time that you become a better driver. You do the touch screen computer test which tell you how to drive hi po cars.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I find interesting is what is the difference between a P plater at 11:59PM and the fully licensed driver at 12:00AM, are they all the sudden perfectly fine to jump behind the wheel of a high powered car?

that one minute just means you are no longer on probation, which as the licence system dictates, you are now eligible for more freedoms


not much different to the minute before you turn 18 and the time you do. you are no different, but more freedoms are available

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

What I find interesting is what is the difference between a P plater at 11:59PM and the fully licensed driver at 12:00AM, are they all the sudden perfectly fine to jump behind the wheel of a high powered car?

I don't see how that's interesting..? Just like every traffic law, there's a boundary. Is it interesting to you that someone at 0.49 is fine to drive and someone at 0.50 is arrested? That could be a mouthful of beer that made the difference between driving home and fronting the beak.

I look back when I first got my P's. I had a 1.3L auto Escort that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. If I was to look at my attitude on the road then vs the car I own now, the outcome may have been a whole lot different. I can read the traffic and anticipate issues instinctively today.. a skill you only learn through experience.

I never had to manage driving among traffic and correct my behaviour when I gave it too much right foot because you can't get a 1.3L Escort bent out of shape by mashing your right foot. Wasn't until a couple of cars after the Escort that I had to respect power, by then I had grown older, wiser and a lot more patient.

[Jimmyd]

Simple - remove the time dependant open licence qualification (ie do not automatically get an open license after 3 years); undertake practical test at end of P plate period proving you can actually drive responsibly before getting Opens.

Alternatively could always go the logical route and introduce a new class of licence specifically for high powered vehicles e.g. more than 100kw/200Nm per tonne.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

that one minute just means you are no longer on probation, which as the licence system dictates, you are now eligible for more freedoms


not much different to the minute before you turn 18 and the time you do. you are no different, but more freedoms are available

Thats right.

Originally Posted by Rodp

I don't see how that's interesting..? Just like every traffic law, there's a boundary. Is it interesting to you that someone at 0.49 is fine to drive and someone at 0.50 is arrested? That could be a mouthful of beer that made the difference between driving home and fronting the beak.

I look back when I first got my P's. I had a 1.3L auto Escort that couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding. If I was to look at my attitude on the road then vs the car I own now, the outcome may have been a whole lot different. I can read the traffic and anticipate issues instinctively today.. a skill you only learn through experience.

I never had to manage driving among traffic and correct my behaviour when I gave it too much right foot because you can't get a 1.3L Escort bent out of shape by mashing your right foot. Wasn't until a couple of cars after the Escort that I had to respect power, by then I had grown older, wiser and a lot more patient.

If you blew .05, by the time you get out of the car, they make you wait like a few minutes, you'd probably go to .049 on the next set of tests anyway.

The biggest difference I find between me and the old man is that he is really good at predicting what traffic and other drivers will do, or what someone on a side street will do, like observing what a car in front is doing, even if they aren't indicating he can pick up that they're going to turn or something similar by the way they drive etc. That only comes with lots experience and you can't teach a new driver those "instincts" if you want to call them that. That and over confidence is where us young ones fail.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If you blew .05, by the time you get out of the car, they make you wait like a few minutes, you'd probably go to .049 on the next set of tests anyway.

15 minutes.. you can also blow higher after an initial reading, depending on when your last drink was. My point still stands, WRT the road, there are limits. That's just the way it works. Nothing interesting about it.

The biggest difference I find between me and the old man is that he is really good at predicting what traffic and other drivers will do, or what someone on a side street will do, like observing what a car in front is doing, even if they aren't indicating he can pick up that they're going to turn or something similar by the way they drive etc. That only comes with lots experience and you can't teach a new driver those "instincts" if you want to call them that. That and over confidence is where us young ones fail.

My point exactly. Young drivers learn those traits by spending time in traffic, why complicate that learning experience by having them do it in cars that they need to spend all of their concentration on when mashing the loud pedal? If drivers of today were much the same as I was when I was young, if I had a car with balls, my boot would be in it. Today, I have a car with a lot of balls, I spend virtually no time with my boot in it - yet, when I do, I'm capable of controlling the car when it is in.

Drove a 12hr round trip to my mother's place on Christmas. My missus wants to learn how to drive this year and in spurts of boredom, we played - age and sex of the driver infront. I'd say I was about 90% accurate on observations being behind them. She was about 20% accurate. That's pure experience.

[gtxb67]

to some extent damo, predicting what others will do has nothing to do with experience. it has to do with where you place your vehicle in relation to others. a driver should be willing to see 2-3 cars ahead (not always possible of course), so they can react when the car ahead does. a driver should always aim to have zero overlap with other cars - if you or they change lanes abruptly, it is hard to get hit if nothing is beside you

[dragon91]

I know a lot of you will have a problem with this but im on my P's (for another month n a bit) and recently I have driven many cars that are banned for us young'ns in qld including turbos and v8's.... and yes I feel comfortable driving them now...However back when I was 17 and got my license I thought the rules were stupid and I wanted to drive a v8.... in hindsight I am glad I wasnt allowed. If for the only reason that now after only 3 years I can look back and see that I was an uncalculated risk taker who was always in a hurry for no apparent reason and add over 200kw to that equation im sure it would have ended badly.

It seems now I have slowed down a fair whack and understand why these laws are in place. But in all honesty between us I still do the naughty from time to time. in 8weeks im gonna be a dad then ill have to slow down for ever.

What i dont understand is why im allowed to drive my BA but not my mums turbo saab and dads mercedes compresor, pretty sure even if you combined the power of the 2 it wouldnt be as powerful as the standard BA

[kyro_02]

if it was up to me, i'd let everyone drive as follows:

unlicensed
unregistered
any high performance car they desire

because it'll be their last

for 1 week

will clense the gene pool a fair bit i think

yes, im being serious

[TheZHLANE]

Originally Posted by kyro_02

if it was up to me, i'd let everyone drive as follows:

unlicensed
unregistered
any high performance car they desire

because it'll be their last

for 1 week

will clense the gene pool a fair bit i think

yes, im being serious

And lots of innocent bystanders.

[GreenR]

P platers should be able to drive banned cars under supervision so they can slowly get used to them. The problem is when you go so many years wanting a powerful V8 or turbo then suddenly the day your allowed, what do you do? Go buy one and probably drive stupidly.

Much like alcohol. If you aren't allowed to drink when your younger what's the first thing you do when you turn 18? You go get blotto.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by HenryFordJr

Oh how things have changed, I had my first V8 at 15 years old lol..

IMO P platers cause enough trouble on the roads without having performance vehicles.

With time comes experience, let them learn how to drive and get a feel for cars in general before strapping them into a V8 or Turbo etc.

Me too. My first car was an XC Fairmont GXL, 5.8/9"/FMX - (later toploader). But, I started driving when I was 9 - farms, dirt roads, grey motors & 'tree' speeds, V8 Chryslers etc. Not sure if it made me a 'good' driver...but sure did teach me more about car control etc. when I did get into trouble.

Speed or power is not the problem; it's learning how to "control" the car at the speed, and knowing your limitations and reading the road / environment.

As anyone who has read any of my rants knows; I think there should be more of a competency based licensing / testing system. Would be fairer on everyone and as Flap has mentioned - a coloured 'plate' or number plate system would go a good way to help differentiation.

And I think someone else mentioned - National uniform regulations. This state-by-state thing is goofy.

Just my 2c worth.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I have a 1.6L WS Fiesta and a 2L TDCI LV Focus, the Fiesta is speed limited to 180km/h and the Focus 200km/h and they're both legal for me to drive.

You don't need a V8 to go fast, only to go fast in a short distance.

In my opinion:

It SHOULD be limited to power to weight ratio like it used to be here pre 2007, it was the best way to limit power, you could still drive things like E series Falcons with the 302 wheezer, but not things like Honda S2000, DC2R, etc which are actually fast cars in the corners.

If I didn't have my Fairmont which I'm in the middle of fixing up, all it takes is a turbo back exhaust, cold air intake, airtec Gen 3 intercooler, up the boost to 18psi, remove the torque limiter on 1st/2nd gear, quaife LSD and a dyno tune and all the sudden my sedate legal TDCI Focus will be going fairly fast and probably keeping up with an XR5 Focus.

Personally, looking around these days and seeing myself with new/recent cars and like 90% of the other P platers out there, they should focus on banning cars with under a 4 star safety rating for new drivers, regardless of the car chances are youngins are going to drive like morons so might as well as get them into something safe to increase their chances of surviving for when they do have that accident.

Yes both of those cars can do 180ks, but have you actually tried to get those cars to 180ks, it takes along time, unlike my BA GT who will get to 200ks easily and want to keep going to the limiter which is around 250ks, much like many other v8's.





Power to weight was stopped because people were getting older v8's and making them into monsters. So a person may drive an older model v8 within the power to weight ratio law, but with a few mods a lot of these cars could give my GT a good run. The only way police would be able to tell is get these cars dyno tested and the police do not have a dyno.

One of my friends, when I was 20 drove his EL XR8 on his p plates here in Victoria. His car was just under power to rate, so he could drive it. But he modded his car and went over power to weight, police could not do anything because the mods could not been seen and they could not prove his car was over the limit.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by flappist

I was talking with my niece who is a P plater about cars and she wanted to have a drive of my datto. Unfortunately it is on the banned list so she can't which brought up two points.

1) If she is not capable of controlling it now will she magically become a better driver in May when she gets her open license.
2) If I am sitting in the left seat advising her on how to keep it under 200km/h in a school zone while not spinning the wheels is that not better then her finding out for herself the hard way in 6 months.

In aviation after gaining a type endorsement (being tested on a particular complex aircraft type) it is not unusal for a period of ICUS (in command under supervision) flying to be done with a senior pilot on board just to ensure the junior pilot has a good understanding of what they are doing.

So the question:

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Possibly the senior driver would have some minor qualification even something as low as 30 years plus 10 years of open license or whatever.

Maybe a blue or orange P plate shown when in ICUS.

What are the thoughts?

How about wait till she has her fulls then you sit in the passenger seat and provide guidance?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 5.4 GT

How about wait till she has her fulls then you sit in the passenger seat and provide guidance?

That is all you got from the OP?

Seriously?

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by flappist

That is all you got from the OP?

Seriously?

just got 1 question, whats a datto? :/

[xisled]

Originally Posted by FAS33

just got 1 question, whats a datto? :/

Datto is a Datsun.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

As anyone who has read any of my rants knows; I think there should be more of a competency based licensing / testing system. Would be fairer on everyone and as Flap has mentioned - a coloured 'plate' or number plate system would go a good way to help differentiation.

And I think someone else mentioned - National uniform regulations. This state-by-state thing is goofy.

Just my 2c worth.

Most of the population need a license simply to get from A to B. They obey the road rules, while using common sense in adapting the vehicle to changing road conditions. This being the scenario, most of us don't plough into trees, telephone poles, other cars and even allow for idiot hoon drivers.

This is fact. Of course there are always unforeseen circumstances, which people will meet on the road. This may require split second decision making... defensive driving may assists here. Thing is, a car without all the assisted technologies (DSC, ABS, LSD etc), reacts SO MUCH differently than one with if we're taking broken traction / skidding. Which car do you teach drivers to control? One with all these technologies? None of them? Some of them? Too many variables here. + We need to make sure those who are obviously uncoordinated to get a license like everyone else.... eeeeek.

I think common sense has to prevail at some point, as human beings we just need to be more responsible. Asking the government to hold our hand isn't always necessary.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by xisled

Yes both of those cars can do 180ks, but have you actually tried to get those cars to 180ks, it takes along time, unlike my BA GT who will get to 200ks easily and want to keep going to the limiter which is around 250ks, much like many other v8's.

Power to weight was stopped because people were getting older v8's and making them into monsters. So a person may drive an older model v8 within the power to weight ratio law, but with a few mods a lot of these cars could give my GT a good run. The only way police would be able to tell is get these cars dyno tested and the police do not have a dyno.

One of my friends, when I was 20 drove his EL XR8 on his p plates here in Victoria. His car was just under power to rate, so he could drive it. But he modded his car and went over power to weight, police could not do anything because the mods could not been seen and they could not prove his car was over the limit.

Yes, it doesn't take a long time, drive a new 4 cylinder small car and you'll be surprised. They're both modern cars, 2009 and 2010 models. the LV TDCI Focus pulls like a train in 6th at 100km/h, you don't even need to drop back to pick up speed quickly.

They obviously won't do it as quickly has high powered V8s will, but its still possible.

Look at a 302 wheezer in the 90s Falcons, it costs a lot more to make those things go fast than it does for the 6 cylinder versions.

Go for a spin in a Honda S2000, 170KW odd N/A 4 cylinder, in a small roadster. Thats also P plate legal now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBnLp_WIBlc

Starts at 30 seconds, from 50km/h.

I'm not advocating letting some 18 year old kid behind the wheel of XR6Ts, I'd rather them be able to drive 90s V8s and not be able to get themselves into "outside the box" fast cars like S2000, DC2R etc, but still being able to drive new fuel efficient turbo cars like the Ecoboost Falcon which is due soon or VWs TSI engined cars.

My cousins first car, was an early Commodore with that boat anchor 4.2L V8, she was surprised that we're not allowed to drive those anymore because they are considered "high powered vehicles".

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by xisled

Datto is a Datsun.

haha arent datsun's lil old 1960's era cars, how are they on the banned list?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by FAS33

haha arent datsun's lil old 1960's era cars, how are they on the banned list?

I think he's referring to his 350/70Z that he owns.

Which is on Victoria's high powered 6 cylinder list, which is funny because up until recent, the jap import Skyline 350/70GT wasn't, which has the same engine and is basically just a bigger, 4 door version of the 350/70Z was allowed.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by FAS33

haha arent datsun's lil old 1960's era cars, how are they on the banned list?

Have to agree with you there. Nissan bought out Datsun fully years ago.....Well, I'm fairly sure they did. I reckon it was around the Bluebird era. (ie the Bluebird that as released after the 200B, not the later model one of the 90's)

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by martyk54

Most of the population need a license simply to get from A to B. They obey the road rules, while using common sense in adapting the vehicle to changing road conditions. This being the scenario, most of us don't plough into trees, telephone poles, other cars and even allow for idiot hoon drivers.

This is fact. Of course there are always unforeseen circumstances, which people will meet on the road. This may require split second decision making... defensive driving may assists here. Thing is, a car without all the assisted technologies (DSC, ABS, LSD etc), reacts SO MUCH differently than one with if we're taking broken traction / skidding. Which car do you teach drivers to control? One with all these technologies? None of them? Some of them? Too many variables here. + We need to make sure those who are obviously uncoordinated to get a license like everyone else.... eeeeek.

I think common sense has to prevail at some point, as human beings we just need to be more responsible. Asking the government to hold our hand isn't always necessary.

Yeah, I agree. There has to be a fair system, even the Numptys need to be allowed to drive to work

Most people don't need to drift a 200SX to work every morning though. And I am wondering if there could, or should be a system [able to be put] in place to allow more competency based concessions for P-plate eligible drivers (or anyone for that matter).

Some kid's may be more mature or competent than others...so allow them concessions and assess them accordingly and let them have more responsibility. But as I think you are 'saying', The Gummint finds it easier (read: cheaper and therefore less complicated) to keep assessment etc. the same for everyone so there's no perceived bias or inequality.

There's a broader issue here as you 'say' with taking responsibility, and there are fewer, and fewer people in the community that are willing to accept responsibility for their actions. Some people are willing to accept this responsibility and play by the rules, but most won't.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Have to agree with you there. Nissan bought out Datsun fully years ago.....Well, I'm fairly sure they did. I reckon it was around the Bluebird era. (ie the Bluebird that as released after the 200B, not the later model one of the 90's)

Yeah, early 80's I remember. Series 1 Blunderebirds (1982-ish) were advertised or branded as Nissan-Datsun. I think it was a merger or re-brand if I remember right.