Random Police checks "not lawful"

[Dash_XR]

Bill of Rights isn't necessarily the answer to all our problems. Would you honestly trust our current government to forge one? They can barely run the country let alone even begin to design a Bill Of Rights.

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by csv8

This another example why Australians need a Bill of Rights.
http://www.nswccl.org.au/issues/bill.../australia.php

A quote from the link you put up,

"The majority of Australians want a Bill of Rights and they want a say about whether it belongs in the Constitution

In 1991-1992 the Research School of Social Sciences at ANU conducted a national survey of 1522 Australians and asked them about their attitude to rights. The report Rights in Australia 1991-1992 found that 70.6% of Australians want a Bill of Rights (7.4% were against and 21.8% were undecided). The Survey also found that 85.9% supported a referendum to determine whether a Bill of Rights should be put in the Constitution. The majority of Australians (57.8%) also believe that a Bill of Rights would strengthen our national identity."

Gee they surveyed 1522 people out of a population of 17 million people in 1992, I bet they just hung around outside the university gates, lawyers offices and Amnesty International head office.

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by jaydee

A quote from the link you put up,

"The majority of Australians want a Bill of Rights and they want a say about whether it belongs in the Constitution

In 1991-1992 the Research School of Social Sciences at ANU conducted a national survey of 1522 Australians and asked them about their attitude to rights. The report Rights in Australia 1991-1992 found that 70.6% of Australians want a Bill of Rights (7.4% were against and 21.8% were undecided). The Survey also found that 85.9% supported a referendum to determine whether a Bill of Rights should be put in the Constitution. The majority of Australians (57.8%) also believe that a Bill of Rights would strengthen our national identity."

Gee they surveyed 1522 people out of a population of 17 million people in 1992, I bet they just hung around outside the university gates, lawyers offices and Amnesty International head office.

I would support a bill of rights and I am none of the above you describe. For one all the arguments posted above by many of the posters about our legal system being manipulated would be quashed. Because the argument to date is that we don't need a bill of rights because our legal system protects us....works for some and not for others hey?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jimmyxr6t04

C'mon Flappist... You've been around a long time, you're an educated bloke.

There is one problem with the police upholding the law and being to the letter at the same time, the crim never has to play by the rules... Our freedoms aside. If the police ask for my licence, i provide... If i don't, i could expect that they'd assume i am hiding something. On suspicion, i'd expect them to search me...

Police will perform an RBT (legal), they will then ask for the drivers licence (legal), if that person fails to comply, then the police will have reasonable grounds to suspect that this person may be hiding something. If the person does give up their details, the police will thank them, breath test them and have them on their way... UNLESS, they then suspect something further... Eg; notice a bong, or something else... OR perhaps, a warrant for the person's arrest is recorded...

Crims don't need to identify themselves before using a firearm, nor do they need to caution anyone before using force or anything else... I think criminals get it pretty good, surely you'd agree?

One thing we both agree on is the use of speed cameras (we both dislike them), but that's not really a police issue (in the grand scheme of things). To me, anything that helps the cops pull in the scum and make an arrest for drug dealers, and violent criminals, the better.

We can't rely on the courts to protect us, or the parole board... They let all kinds of murderers and rapists free (as proven recently)... I'd prefer to see those people as the "target" for police than a speeding flappist doing 7km/h over the limit...

You are missing my point completely.

If there is a problem with the system then the system needs to be fixed by the correct method which is by an elected parliament NOT by a group of employed public servants.

Those who think that allowing Police or any government department for that matter to operate without external control have not learned anything from the Fitzgerald, Wood et. al. royal commissions.

[FGII-XR6]

I agree with you on that matter I was just stating that to keep things operating the police would be "resourceful" and find a legal way to circumvent this ruling without actually breaking the law. the resolution of this loophole should be regarded as a priority by the government

Originally Posted by flappist

You are missing my point completely.

If there is a problem with the system then the system needs to be fixed by the correct method which is by an elected parliament NOT by a group of employed public servants.

Those who think that allowing Police or any government department for that matter to operate without external control have not learned anything from the Fitzgerald, Wood et. al. royal commissions.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

I agree with you on that matter I was just stating that to keep things operating the police would be "resourceful" and find a legal way to circumvent this ruling without actually breaking the law. the resolution of this loophole should be regarded as a priority by the government

i don't think its a 'loophole' as such, but now an inconvenience to the police force. the more i think about it, the less i agree with the original ruling by the magistrate.

driving isn't a right. its a privilege. i have no problem with the police being able to pull you over for a routine traffic stop. the only time i have been worried, is when driving a car that may fail some checks (too low, dark tint, emissions etc), but thats my problem, not the police.

police should be allowed to do their job without fear of being hauled before a magistrate because someone doesn't like being pulled over, even if they are found to be not complying with the laws.

respect for authority seems to be almost extinct.

[FGII-XR6]

A loophole is an anomaly in the law that is exploited by bottom feeding lawyers to the detriment to the actual intent of the law. I think this fits that definition perfectly

Originally Posted by prydey

i don't think its a 'loophole' as such, but now an inconvenience to the police force. the more i think about it, the less i agree with the original ruling by the magistrate.

driving isn't a right. its a privilege. i have no problem with the police being able to pull you over for a routine traffic stop. the only time i have been worried, is when driving a car that may fail some checks (too low, dark tint, emissions etc), but thats my problem, not the police.

police should be allowed to do their job without fear of being hauled before a magistrate because someone doesn't like being pulled over, even if they are found to be not complying with the laws.

respect for authority seems to be almost extinct.

[jimmyxr6t04]

Originally Posted by flappist

You are missing my point completely.

If there is a problem with the system then the system needs to be fixed by the correct method which is by an elected parliament NOT by a group of employed public servants.

Those who think that allowing Police or any government department for that matter to operate without external control have not learned anything from the Fitzgerald, Wood et. al. royal commissions.

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, it means that the police will have to work out ways around it...

[TheSneakiness]

I'm sorry but there are those ethnics will ALWAYS play the race card.

"He hurt me cause I'm black/brown/yellow/albino/green with blue spots"

The problem is people listen to them first and disregard everything else. Then you wonder why this country is effed like it is.

I blame hippies, greenies and do-gooders.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by flappist

You are missing my point completely.

If there is a problem with the system then the system needs to be fixed by the correct method which is by an elected parliament NOT by a group of employed public servants.

Those who think that allowing Police or any government department for that matter to operate without external control have not learned anything from the Fitzgerald, Wood et. al. royal commissions.

In theory, the elected Parliament would be the correct way to change the system. But in reality, the elected Parliament hasn't acted in the best interests of the nation in a very long time.

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

In theory, the elected Parliament would be the correct way to change the system. But in reality, the elected Parliament hasn't acted in the best interests of the nation in a very long time.

QFT

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I'm sorry but there are those ethnics will ALWAYS play the race card.

"He hurt me cause I'm black/brown/yellow/albino/green with blue spots"

The problem is people listen to them first and disregard everything else. Then you wonder why this country is effed like it is.

I blame hippies, greenies and do-gooders.

Im asian, and I agree with your point wholeheartedly. The minorities seem to have the power and the majority of voices seem to get disregarded unless its voting time. Points back to the political correctness comment earlier on. People are too scared to say/do anything for fear of being pointed out/labeled/sued as racist, homophobic, misogynistic, etc, etc. Probably a topic for another thread, but you get what Im saying.

[nz13boy]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

much lols @ african dudes pulling the dis enfranchised you is picking on me bs with the po po.....

you will and forever will be from now on.....

What makes you so sure its Bs??? Just a little bit presumptuous dont you think? Your comment sounds like a typical bigoted statement to me.

As a black guy who has owned many a Late model nice car, owns a nice "Glorified Ford" and currently has a very expensive "Datsun", I have found myself on the side of the road numerous times after having been stopped "randomly" by the Police. Ive been stopped in my sons school car-park, McDonalds Drive through, approached by a officer on foot while sitting at traffic lights and told to pull over when the lights go green, followed into payed parking carparks etc.

The reasons (excuses) Ive been given by the officer plods have varied greatly from the usual "just a random stop sir" to the absurd "we have had complaints about a Nissan GTR similar to yours doing doughnuts/burnouts at the park".........lol. One officer told me he pulled me over because someone in a blue fpv was involved in a hit and run. After checking my drivers license he went to walk back to his patrol car without looking at the front or underside of my car for damage (human limbs). I got outa my car and just went off at him for bullshitting about why he pulled me over. He just said sorry, my mistake, wound up his window and drove off.

Ive had two separate officers search my car even after I have said NO to their requests for a vehicle search.

Getting pulled over once every few years or so I would consider to be the norm.

Getting pulled over 15+ times in the 15years Ive lived here in Oz is, in my opinion, bigoted profiling........

[ozpacman]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

Are you saying that Victoria Police were wrong in their settlement of the "Operation Molto" Federal Court case?

I can't comment on whether it was right or wrong. I'm not aware of the facts of the matter and in fact have no knowledge of it, so I'm not qualified to offer any informed comment re same.

I simply said what I said and I stand by my statement.

Something about walking a mile in someone else's shoes . . .

Russ

[james22]

In NSW they always start with the line, " Hello Sir, I have pulled you over for the purpose of a Random Breath Test" Or very similar, after that spiel, they can check your license, etc without a problem

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by prydey

driving isn't a right. its a privilege.

This one - We should always have rights, no matter what we are doing. Sick of hearing that I apparently waive my rights just because I am holding a license and driving a car.

What about travelling on a minding my own business on a train? a privilege too? Can I be continuously bailed up there because someone doesnt like the look of me because I fall into a particular profile?

Oh and by the way, I don't fall into a target profile, about as white collar, pay my taxes, clean as a whistle record as you can get.

Except for the GT..........

[Trump]

Travel is a right. Using a car to travel is an extension of that right, despite what govco and the media want the public to believe.

[KIWI-1]

"The evidence of the police officers given during the voir dire was that they were required to make a number of random intercepts of vehicles.

Before requesting drivers to stop the vehicles they had no information about the status of their registration, whether the registered owners had valid driving licences nor as to whether the vehicles and their occupants were associated with any alleged breach of the Act or regulations."
One of the randomly intercepted vehicles was that in which the accused was a passenger.
I accept the accused's submission that police in stopping the vehicle in the circumstances described, were acting unlawfully. I am satisfied they neither had common law nor statutory power to do so. Their conduct in my opinion, unjustifiably breached the right to freedom of movement of Kaba and the driver and subjected them to arbitrary detention, contrary to the provisions of s21(2) of the Charter.
As to the obligation of the police officers under s.38 of the Charter, that in making a decision, proper consideration should be given to a relevant human right the substance of the evidence was that their concentration was focussed on intercepting an adequate quota of vehicles during their shift.
While there was no issue with the vehicle's registration or the licence of the driver, he consented to a search of the vehicle instigated by Andrews, apparently on the tenuous basis that he had sighted the scissors and laptop in the vehicle and a 'field contact' had disclosed some undefined link between the vehicle and marijuana.

Kaba left the vehicle and proceeded to move off. He was twice asked by police for his identification. On neither occasion were police purporting to rely on the provisions of s.456AA of the Crimes Act 1958.
It is contended by the accused that there was no lawful power for the police to make those requests.
It was submitted they were unlawful and improper and contravened Kaba's right, protected by the terms of sl3(a) of the Charter, not to have his privacy interfered with. It is a submission with which I agree."

[gtfpv]

so the 1st post says that . a policemen can not pull over a car at random , unless it's a random breath test . thats a tough law to get around . JEEZ , I have better things to spend tax $$$ on . if something smells like ???? it normally is ????

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

What makes you so sure its Bs??? Just a little bit presumptuous dont you think? Your comment sounds like a typical bigoted statement to me.

As a black guy who has owned many a Late model nice car, owns a nice "Glorified Ford" and currently has a very expensive "Datsun", I have found myself on the side of the road numerous times after having been stopped "randomly" by the Police. Ive been stopped in my sons school car-park, McDonalds Drive through, approached by a officer on foot while sitting at traffic lights and told to pull over when the lights go green, followed into payed parking carparks etc.

The reasons (excuses) Ive been given by the officer plods have varied greatly from the usual "just a random stop sir" to the absurd "we have had complaints about a Nissan GTR similar to yours doing doughnuts/burnouts at the park".........lol. One officer told me he pulled me over because someone in a blue fpv was involved in a hit and run. After checking my drivers license he went to walk back to his patrol car without looking at the front or underside of my car for damage (human limbs). I got outa my car and just went off at him for bullshitting about why he pulled me over. He just said sorry, my mistake, wound up his window and drove off.

Ive had two separate officers search my car even after I have said NO to their requests for a vehicle search.

Getting pulled over once every few years or so I would consider to be the norm.

Getting pulled over 15+ times in the 15years Ive lived here in Oz is, in my opinion, bigoted profiling........

i've been pulled over 30+ times in the last 15 years...

three times in the last three weeks..

car searched several times, no big deal i tell them go for it...

no form, no attitude

deal with it

[Ibanezteve]

Same, 3 times this week. They're just doing their job. Too many thin skinned idiots, with chipped shoulders thinking they are more important than everyone else.
Deal with it.

[ED Classic]

Originally Posted by tweeked

This one - We should always have rights, no matter what we are doing. Sick of hearing that I apparently waive my rights just because I am holding a license and driving a car.

What about travelling on a minding my own business on a train? a privilege too? Can I be continuously bailed up there because someone doesnt like the look of me because I fall into a particular profile?

Oh and by the way, I don't fall into a target profile, about as white collar, pay my taxes, clean as a whistle record as you can get.

Except for the GT..........

This exactly what I was going to say. I'm all for them doing RBT's and getting drink drivers off the road etc but targeting persons or vehicles that are doing nothing wrong to fill their run sheet, or because they are in the wrong mood needs to be a thing of the past if they want the respect of next generations like mentioned in post 2. I think there is some police that a great at their jobs and like a lot of industries there is some real cowboys/ Tom Hanks

[nz13boy]

Originally Posted by Ibanezteve

Same, 3 times this week. They're just doing their job. Too many thin skinned idiots, with chipped shoulders thinking they are more important than everyone else.
Deal with it.

Firstly, its a chip on the shoulder, not a chipped shoulder, if your going to make derogatory statements you should at least try and get it right.

Secondly, I Dont think people like myself are thinned skinned at all. And I certainly dont think Im more important than anyone else.

How does inferring that the reason Im getting pulled over may be because of the colour of my skin and the car(s) I drive make me thin skinned and a Idiot?

I now deal with being constantly pulled over by questioning their motives and then listening to some of their absurd "reasons" for doing so. You of course wont ever get to hear and ridiculous reasons for being pulled over as you seem happy to submisive when constantly pulled over.

Being pulled over 3x in one week isn't the norm and neither is being pulled over 30times in 15years. Wether its a the car your driving, the suburb your in or your appearance, if we are being pulled over this many times its possible its anything but random IMHO.

[KIWI-1]

nz13boy. If you want a good laugh try this one bro...
Missus on shift work was in sync with RBT. Every 2nd arvo shift she would get stopped on Melbourne Rd, Newport. Told the cop there was nothing random about it. They changed their 'random' week and she didn't have to leave early anymore 'cos they were now out of sync.

[Cabbage]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Further confirms my thoughts that lawyers write the law, then work for their own self interests and profession when applying those laws, not for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I was brought up to always respect the police, never assault them under any circumstances. This just undermines their authority.

Never a truer word spoken!

[Franco Cozzo]

All these people running to the defense of Victoria Police, lets just remember they're not saints and they are human as well, so they make the same mistakes and are driven by emotions like we are.

Just because you have a badge and some authority doesn't automatically turn you into the Pope.

+1 on playing the race card though, I'm not racist, I just hate everyone.

I've been brethoed 3 times since I've been driving, one by some terry toughC Highway Patrol in the main street of my local town, everyone else turned off to avoid him so I just went right through and got stopped lol.

Another two times on Airport Drive Tullamarine in their booze bus setup, I just fly under the radar mostly in my little girly hatch back.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Further confirms my thoughts that lawyers write the law, then work for their own self interests and profession when applying those laws, not for the benefit of the community as a whole.

I was brought up to always respect the police, never assault them under any circumstances. This just undermines their authority.

Actually this isn't lawyers writing the law. Its our apathy that has allowed the officers to pull us over for no reason. The right to go about your business free from harassment from authorities is a founding block of western democracy.

If you look at the American bill of rights one of the enshrined laws is a person has the right to lawfully go about his business without being harassed by authorities. They need a reason to stop you going about your business.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

What makes you so sure its Bs??? Just a little bit presumptuous dont you think? Your comment sounds like a typical bigoted statement to me.

As a black guy who has owned many a Late model nice car, owns a nice "Glorified Ford" and currently has a very expensive "Datsun", I have found myself on the side of the road numerous times after having been stopped "randomly" by the Police. Ive been stopped in my sons school car-park, McDonalds Drive through, approached by a officer on foot while sitting at traffic lights and told to pull over when the lights go green, followed into payed parking carparks etc.

The reasons (excuses) Ive been given by the officer plods have varied greatly from the usual "just a random stop sir" to the absurd "we have had complaints about a Nissan GTR similar to yours doing doughnuts/burnouts at the park".........lol. One officer told me he pulled me over because someone in a blue fpv was involved in a hit and run. After checking my drivers license he went to walk back to his patrol car without looking at the front or underside of my car for damage (human limbs). I got outa my car and just went off at him for bullshitting about why he pulled me over. He just said sorry, my mistake, wound up his window and drove off.

Ive had two separate officers search my car even after I have said NO to their requests for a vehicle search.

Getting pulled over once every few years or so I would consider to be the norm.

Getting pulled over 15+ times in the 15years Ive lived here in Oz is, in my opinion, bigoted profiling........

Sorry to hear it man.

[PG2]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

Being pulled over 3x in one week isn't the norm and neither is being pulled over 30times in 15years. Wether its a the car your driving, the suburb your in or your appearance, if we are being pulled over this many times its possible its anything but random IMHO.

I've been pulled over three times in one week and probably 30 times over 22 years of driving. I have a spotless driving record, drive a "normal" car and I am Caucasian. So why are they pulling me over?

Of those 30 odd times you were pulled over were you given a ticket for doing something wrong? At what time of the day were you pulled over? Was it at 3.00pm or 3.00am? Were you pulled over in a high crime or high drug use area? Were you pulled over by the same police officer? Did the police officer that pulled you over the second or third time know that you had been pulled over earlier on in the week?

If you think that it is not OK to pull a car over at 3.00am in a high crime area that is driving around don't whinge to anybody if yours or a relatives house is broken into and police did nothing about it. Don't whinge about how drugs are ruining our society.

No, I am not saying that ALL cars driving around at 3am in the morning are up to no good but generally most people are tucked away in bed getting some sleep to go to work the next morning.

As for the OP article. If someone feels hard done by by police could someone tell me where it is stated that you can assault them?

[Trump]

Originally Posted by KIWI-1

<snip>"...Before requesting drivers to stop the vehicles they had no information about the status of their registration, whether the registered owners had valid driving licences nor as to whether the vehicles and their occupants were associated with any alleged breach of the Act or regulations."... <snip>

Firstly, can you post a link to where you got that extract from.

Secondly, the bit I bolded is interesting. The police request drivers stop their vehicles. I might be mistaken, but isn't the definition of request "to ask someone to do something". By the wording of the magistrate, we can refuse their request legally. Having said that though, there isn't a cop in the land that in his or her mind has request = demand hard wired.