Legalities of off-street burnouts

[BHDOGS]

It would of been simply them being pro active in there job and pointing out if you act like idiots they will come down and fine you thats all like you did be nice and re assuring when they arrive and everything will be fine I think people forget just because there police doesnt mean they agree with every law and some are willing to look away if it improves safety. Which it seems these officers have done id go so far as to invite any of there local plod to bring there regular car down for a spin maybe some of them would be keen for it who knows.

[tankclare]

Where do I start...

First of all if the police were ok about it and then came back later to shut it down or sent a letter than obviously someone has made a complaint. No matter what complaint a police officer gets they have to chase it up even if they don't want to. As far as we know the police officers could be car enthusiasts who wish they could stay and watch. Them having to say something is simply their job.

I have no idea on the situation regarding the location of the burnout pad so can't say much about that but I dare say noise and smoke pollution caused the problem. If it's in a non residential area and noise was the problem then you should be ok. Smoke and fume pollution is a whole different ball game and can be big $$$.

I am on the committee and help organise and run the Kandos Street Machine & Hot Rod show. I know you are having fun with mates on a property but the rules and regulations regarding burnout competitions and car shows in general are tight and can surprise a lot of people. For example once you pass a certain amount of spectators by law you are required to have security, toilets, fire truck, ambulance, signage, fencing and insurance etc. There are a LOT of regulations to abide by regardless if its public land or private land.

If in a public sort of area like we are (in the middle of town) then you need to meet EPA restrictions including testing of smoke pollution and noise. Fail these and you are up for big $$$ and no more skids.

As much as some people may disagree road rules do still apply on private property. If a serious police officer catches you doing skids on your pad without a seatbelt on or under the influence of alcohol he/she can still book you if what you are doing is deemed unsafe.

But yeah just be as nice as possible to the police, you don't want to get on their bad side. No doubt you will get neighbours who will complain and they will constantly be running to police to make complaints. Talk to them and see what they want you to do and see if you can sort out some kind of agreement. If all the law enforcers and regulations are happy then it's simply too bad for the annoyed neighbour or person complaining.

[MercurySilver]

So the kids paddock bashing in the old datto up the road from me on 3 acres....can't anymore????

Surely not!

[tankclare]

We have been paddock bashing with people hanging out of the car with the police helicopter doing laps watching with no complaints. They use to store fuel drums at my mates property for when they needed to top the helicopter up. We use to drive all sorts of paddock bashers from the house across the public road and into the paddock beside the road without any problems. Sure we had countless complaints from the neighbours including for tyre smoke but only ever got verbal warnings about it.

Here is a video of my brother and I doing skids side by side on new years eve a few years back. The neighbours house is only a few hundred metres away. Got a complaint about it but nothing else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTodefPnCA0

Like I said just be nice to the police and you should be ok.

[GTP-RPD]

Lock the front gate of the property with a chain and a H/D padlock once everyone arrives. A no trespassing sign and the Prime minister couldn't even enter your land without a warrant. Entering by force and without a warrant is equal to breaking and entering. I am pretty sure there is a precedent on this that I read once.

Indeed, access to your property may be more open than you imagined, as Acting Sergeant Sharon Darcy of Victoria Police points out. "Anyone has the right to walk up to a front door and knock on the door."

Revoking the implied licence to enter is a simple matter, according to property lawyer Darren Eliau of Evans Ellis Law. He says displaying a "Do not enter" sign, "such as those available from any $2 shop", is sufficient to prohibit entry.

"There's no actual convention at law that says there is a certain wording that you must say. It's not governed by any statute. It's just what's reasonable.

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"'Do not enter', 'Do not trespass', 'No canvassers', 'No hawkers' — those types of things," Mr Eliau says.

In victoria there are three different types of powers of entry to property that police can use. They all relate to criminal offences."

Section 459A of the Crimes Act 1958 is an example of a statute that gives police power of entry without warrant. The section covers circumstances in which police have knowledge that a person who has committed an offence (indictable to five or more years of jail in Victoria) is inside. Police can enter that property to make an arrest.

Police also have the power to enter without warrant to stop a disturbance of the peace. Should police officers be standing at the front door and hear a fracas within, they are allowed to enter.

"They have a power to enter to stop that breach of the peace they can only remain on the premises as long as that breach is occurring. Once that breach of the peace is finished and everything is under control, they have no right to remain on the premises."

Since 2003, anti-terrorism laws have also given police the legal authority to enter a property without warrant.

The law handbook states. Police are allowed onto your land if they have a warrant, which they should show you when seeking entry to your land. If they don't have a warrant, they may only enter your land if you invite them, or if particular circumstances arise, such as making an arrest, stopping a breach of the peace or ensuring that the SOA is being complied with (see: "Power to search without warrant", in Chapter 3*2 Arrest and Interrogation).

The Law Institute of Victoria offers a free telephone and online referral service for anyone who has a query.

No I am not a lawyer but someone who has powers of entry onto land in my job.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

So the kids paddock bashing in the old datto up the road from me on 3 acres....can't anymore????

Surely not!

As far as I can tell, haven't read the whole thing but any activity that destroys the environment in any way (private property or not) will become illegal and policed.

All it will probably take is a neighbor to dob you in then the police/EPA or what ever new UN backed agency that pops up will come out confiscate everything and fine you.

Australia is one of the main signators along with the US although the US constitution means they don't have to actually abide by any of it where as Australia does/will.

Company carbon tax is just the beginning, wait for the individual taxes to come in.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

Lock the front gate of the property with a chain and a H/D padlock once everyone arrives.

What a fantastic idea

Tell us more about what you propose if there is an accident or fire? Because I don't buy simply send someone down to open the gate. People always miss place keys when they are running around like chooks with their heads cut off

And I would wager it would be a barrel of laughs once it all went to court when they get a hold of emergency assistance was hampered by a HD chain and lock while the numpty with the key was found or the chain cut so the first arriving emergency vehicle attempted to gain access

[poppa smurf]

gee! 150 folks, locked in, watching or doing burnouts with little to no safety measures and virtually no appliances or trained personnel on hand.......what could possibly go wrong.

as for legalities......I say let them go......Darwin's evolution theory in action right there.

[BadMax]

Originally Posted by daniel_rossy

Had barriers set up and a big hill where spectators viewed from. There was no entry fees or anything just rocked up. Had a firetruck there and everyone had a great day.

I can only assume that the property owner has used a degree of common sense and applied it to some safety aspects of what they are doing.

Speculation about safety and how it was conducted is just that. For all we know, trained firies could have volunteered their time because they love burnouts.

[daniel_rossy]

Originally Posted by BadMax

I can only assume that the property owner has used a degree of common sense and applied it to some safety aspects of what they are doing.

Speculation about safety and how it was conducted is just that. For all we know, trained firies could have volunteered their time because they love burnouts.

Yeah there were about 4 members of the CFA who are friends with the owners and they brought the firetruck along with them. There are also 3 or 4 fire extinguishers that are there at all times for when we went out there randomly.

The reason why they used that particular paddock is because an old train track runs along adjacent to the pad, so we had logs and people brought their seats and sat up, and the train track is quite high up from the pad.

In regards to noise complaints, as I said it wouldn't surprise me if someone complained. It only takes one person to complain then the police have to act accordingly. Most of the $400 cars that we bought to do skids, we left the exhausts on them simply to keep the noise down. So when we went out randomly it wouldn't annoy everyone as much.

As for entering, they said they can't because it is private property unless the gates are open, which they were closed but not locked and always are closed because 2 of the 3 paddocks have livestock in them.

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

What a fantastic idea

Tell us more about what you propose if there is an accident or fire? Because I don't buy simply send someone down to open the gate. People always miss place keys when they are running around like chooks with their heads cut off

And I would wager it would be a barrel of laughs once it all went to court when they get a hold of emergency assistance was hampered by a HD chain and lock while the numpty with the key was found or the chain cut so the first arriving emergency vehicle attempted to gain access

2 different scenarios and not relevant. the point is making it clear that entry to YOUR land is not permitted without approval.

fire services have the equipment to break through in case of an emergency. fire. this event was also 3 paddocks in not in an auditorium.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

2 different scenarios and not relevant. the point is making it clear that entry to YOUR land is not permitted without approval.

fire services have the equipment to break through in case of an emergency. fire. this event was also 3 paddocks in not in an auditorium.

A/ A spectator has been hit by a car that got waywood the first arriving emergency service is the parramedics the gate is locked

Don't worry person who is bleeding profusely the fire service will be here shortly, please be patient

B/ the fire service first to the same scenario, pull up to the gate, **** the gates locked,

Q/ do we have a key to this gate Yes / No (fire services are quite often given keys to gates and propertys for emergency access)

Yes: get the key out and open in assuming the lock hasnt been changed

No: proceed to cut the chain

Yes but the wrong one: after they have wasted valiable time and then cut the chain they can no procced to the incdent,

I dont think I would like to be in that senario

Closed gates are one thing locked is just stupid

the best ones are when you finaly get in becasue some one turned up with the key just as you were about to cut the chain and let you in, then when youve driven through 3 padocks and a rail line you get back and the ambulance cant get back out becasue the idiot that let you in locked the gate behind you

yes Ive had that happen

[daniel_rossy]

Say if there was four or five of us out there, and we were only there for about half an hour I'm sure locking one gate wouldn't be a problem. But if there were more than 20 it would be a pain to have someone go up to the gate and unlock it to let people in, and its common sense to leave it unlocked in case something happened.

There was about 5 of us out there a few days after the police gave the owner a letter (we had no idea about it because the owner didnt inform us about the letter). But we had the front gate closed, and my mate parked his ute out the front of the property and left the keys in it (not going to lie, we all do it) and gave him a $144 fine for leaving his keys in the ignition.

They didn't even try to get in the property even when they could have quite easily. Mind you, we were in v6's with stock exhausts and couldn't even hear any noise from the front of the property (but a little smoke)

[BadMax]

Look out, Doctor Doom is back... Some people will go to extraordinary lengths to prove a point no matter how ridiculous it appears to others.

I guess you don't attend any motorsport events like Melbourne GP? How about the poor marshal a few years back, standing behind a concrete barrier and 2m plus fence and was still killed by a stray tyre?

[The Yeti]

If some ones gotten a $144 fine for leaving their keys in the ignition, someone has ****ed someone off.

This is a fine that is rarely issued

Might be time to lay low and be squeaky clean for a bit

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by BadMax

Look out, Doctor Doom is back... Some people will go to extraordinary lengths to prove a point no matter how ridiculous it appears to others.

I guess you don't attend any motorsport events like Melbourne GP? How about the poor marshal a few years back, standing behind a concrete barrier and 2m plus fence and was still killed by a stray tyre?

Sorry "Sir" (see I called you sir, so you wouldn't get ******)

I attend plenty of Motorsport events

And one thing I see on the gate at every venue is the sign that says motor sport is dangerous

I was once at Ammaroo Park (yes Ive been going to motorsports events for a long time) when a formular II car left the track hit an embankment before becoming air born and landing upside down in the crowd on top of spectators 15m from the fence

That was a freak accident and they happen, but just because of freak accidents like the marshall and the one I mentioned does that mean safety precautions are not required?

I don't care if this bloke and his mates want to poor a pad and rip skids, mate as long as its not on the road out the front of my house I couldn't give a toss

He has said he had a fire appliance along with a few trained personnel to act as fire marshals and the spectators were on a hill behind barricades sounds fair to me. In fact I don't think I **** canned the OP yet

I've had a go at you over your attitude towards the police and some other bloke who wanted to Lock the gate other than that as long as common sence is used I recon go for it

So "Sir" I'm sorry if you think I'm against the OP and his mates private skid pad I'm not

[Iggypoppin']

Can you guys settle down please??

[daniel_rossy]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

I don't care if this bloke and his mates want to poor a pad and rip skids, mate as long as its not on the road out the front of my house I couldn't give a toss

And that is exactly why they made it in the first place, so people don't do it on the streets.

Putting aside public liability, noise pollution, laws and ethics, if people had the option in every single town in Victoria of doing skids on a private pad in the middle of three paddocks, out of residential areas and the general public with around the clock access.

OR

The road in-front house with your kids playing out the front, an intersection, traffic lights or on any general road.
I know which one most people would prefer

And yes can we all try and keep the thread civil please

[tankclare]

Any video of you guys chucking some skids? Would love to have a look.

[daniel_rossy]

Don't have time tonight to upload videos but here's a few pics

[FGII-XR6]

Bingo, we have 2 winners right here. burnouts = noise & smoke we have the grounds for a breach of the peace and forced entry onto the property
It has long been stated the anti terrorism clause is a very broad and has the capability to be abused but still be legal . see that guy with the long beard I think that might be the terrorist we are looking for we better force entry to check it out. far fetched? maybe but it is legal

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

"They have a power to enter to stop that breach of the peace they can only remain on the premises as long as that breach is occurring. Once that breach of the peace is finished and everything is under control, they have no right to remain on the premises."

Since 2003, anti-terrorism laws have also given police the legal authority to enter a property without warrant.

[tankclare]

Looks like a decent setup you guys have going.

[Fireblade]

Funny, just reading this thread has me now figuring out how we have become a nanny state, most that have posted here seem to be the wowsers that we have come to complain about that kills our fun.

To the OP, love the setup and appreciate the fact that someone has done something to get it off the street, but alas the killjoys of our new world order will have it shutdown permanently in no time.

[FGII-XR6]

and if your brother, uncle, cousin or what ever was killed due to being at an illegal dangerous event that was under resourced with safety equipment you would be the first to whinge. no one has said that burnout comps should be banned but illegal events that aren't run with all the safety protocol insurance and trained officials should be banned.
that's not nanny state ( a phrase commonly used by anarchist unhappy with having to obey the law) it is running things safely and legally for the good of all
Wowsers? because we play by the rules instead of breaking the law? I'd rather be a wowser than be the one explaining why someone is dead

Originally Posted by Fireblade

Funny, just reading this thread has me now figuring out how we have become a nanny state, most that have posted here seem to be the wowsers that we have come to complain about that kills our fun.

To the OP, love the setup and appreciate the fact that someone has done something to get it off the street, but alas the killjoys of our new world order will have it shutdown permanently in no time.

[daniel_rossy]

Originally Posted by Fireblade

To the OP, love the setup and appreciate the fact that someone has done something to get it off the street, but alas the killjoys of our new world order will have it shutdown permanently in no time.

Thanks for the positive response, I appreciate it. Once/if we get it up and running again ill PM some people who support it and are keen to come have a look/skid when we have a few decent cars there.

Last time we had a mint ZK fairlane (pretty sure it was an ZK, could be wrong). Anyway it had a turbocharged 351 setup on it, was amazing.

And if we are all nice from now i might upload a video or pics of it later

[FGII-XR6]

if you do try to get it running again don't forget to contact workcover as their fines will bankrupt you. contact the organiser of another similar event and find out how they went about doing it legally.
put in the hard yards, pay the insurance and get the trained officials some if not all may volunteer if they are enthusiasts. make sure you have all the required safety equipment on hand and if the event is larger than a few mates you will probably need licenced security ( maybe volunteers if you know some). you will need to charge admission to offset the cost of setting it up but it may become a big thing if you handle it right.
One big thing you will need support from your neighbours and council

Originally Posted by daniel_rossy

Thanks for the positive response, I appreciate it. Once/if we get it up and running again ill PM some people who support it and are keen to come have a look/skid when we have a few decent cars there.

Last time we had a mint ZK fairmont (pretty sure it was an ZK, could be wrong). Anyway it had a turbocharged 351 setup on it, was amazing.

And if we are all nice from now i might upload a video or pics of it later

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

and if your brother, uncle, cousin or what ever was killed due to being at an illegal dangerous event that was under resourced with safety equipment you would be the first to whinge. no one has said that burnout comps should be banned but illegal events that aren't run with all the safety protocol insurance and trained officials should be banned.
that's not nanny state ( a phrase commonly used by anarchist unhappy with having to obey the law) it is running things safely and legally for the good of all
Wowsers? because we play by the rules instead of breaking the law? I'd rather be a wowser than be the one explaining why someone is dead

Geez everyday someone is killed with these so called illegal events on private property, and the first to whinge haha good on you, if someone is killed doing this well so be it the risk is all theirs as it would be mine too.

Private property not so private any more.

Originally Posted by au3xr6

if you do try to get it running again don't forget to contact workcover as their fines will bankrupt you. contact the organiser of another similar event and find out how they went about doing it legally.
put in the hard yards, pay the insurance and get the trained officials some if not all may volunteer if they are enthusiasts. make sure you have all the required safety equipment on hand and if the event is larger than a few mates you will probably need licenced security ( maybe volunteers if you know some). you will need to charge admission to offset the cost of setting it up but it may become a big thing if you handle it right.
One big thing you will need support from your neighbours and council

In other words don't bother, this will bankrupt you for the fun, might as well give up now because it will never be financially viable.

[FGII-XR6]

These events are run frequently and they manage to pay up. I have no time for people who think they can take short cuts with safety because they are too lazy to do it right or too tight to pay for it. this is a society with rules but of course there are always those that chose to live outside the law, they are often called criminals . the law has methods for dealing with these people . don't like it move to say the middle east and try breaking their laws, you won't get the chance to whinge

Originally Posted by Fireblade

In other words don't bother, this will bankrupt you for the fun, might as well give up now because it will never be financially viable.

[BadMax]

So even if it's run as friendly, not for profit, no money exchanging hands, you need to get work cover etc involved?

Ever seen a car crash at a track day or even roll? They don't have a leg to stand on as they waived all their rights to sue when they signed the entry form.

Entry fees would astronomical just like every other motorsport event. Hence no one will show, owners go bankrupt and the burnouts continue in town.

Calling it a 'nanny state' has nothing to do with anarchists. It's people who are fed up with being what to do and how to live their lives and then have laws enforced that are beyond reasonable.

Dude, thumbs up! Burnouts bore the living daylights out of me, but kudos to you for doing something about it!

[Fireblade]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

These events are run frequently and they manage to pay up. I have no time for people who think they can take short cuts with safety because they are too lazy to do it right or too tight to pay for it. this is a society with rules but of course there are always those that chose to live outside the law, they are often called criminals . the law has methods for dealing with these people . don't like it move to say the middle east and try breaking their laws, you won't get the chance to whinge

You do know people that modify their vehicles are exactly the same, your a criminal for putting an exhaust on your V8 because that's illegal, if you can hear it, it will be well over the limit.

What I'm talking about is a little bit of fun with a few mates (nothing huge for me) ripping a few skids on MY property or theirs, maybe even run around in a buggy but the do gooders has pretty much put all that to bed.