E85 Fallen on its ***?

[jpd80]

Random serious question,
What if say HP V8s and turbos cars were tuned to accept a mix of E85 and regular fuel?
About a 33% mix would add plenty of Octane to sustain high compression or high boost...


On another tack,
I remember Ford and Michigan Institute were toying with "Bobcat" project which consisted
of High boost Port injected engine running on normal fuel but supported by E85 acting as
a detonation suppressant via Direct Injection fule system - Ford indicating only around
3% volume of E85 is needed per volume of regular fuel under full boost/load conditions.

Massive amounts of torque and horsepower were discovered but the cost of two
fuel systems was more than the cost of making diesel engines compliant to the
US EPA emission regulations..

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by ratter

another misconception, good power can be made from LPG and cheaper to run per tank, but many people have no idea and live in the past and make comments like it's only good for BBQ's but that's getting off track now

Not trying to be a killjoy but didn't lPG octane get lowered dramatically a few years ago...?

And tank is cheaper but only gets you two-thirds as far?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Random serious question,
What if say HP V8s and turbos cars were tuned to accept a mix of E85 and regular fuel?
About a 33% mix would add plenty of Octane to sustain high compression or high boost...


On another tack,
I remember Ford and Michigan Institute were toying with "Bobcat" project which consisted
of High boost Port injected engine running on normal fuel but supported by E85 acting as
a detonation suppressant via Direct Injection fule system - Ford indicating only around
3% volume of E85 is needed per volume of regular fuel under full boost/load conditions.

Massive amounts of torque and horsepower were discovered but the cost of two
fuel systems was more than the cost of making diesel engines compliant to the
US EPA emission regulations..

now in GM/ford/Chrysler (holden).
for the brazil export cars they use an in tank Alcolmeter that sets the spark timing, gaining extra BHP.

this is a cost effective, RE cheap way that works well.
with similar results that the twin fuel system you speak of.

[mcnews]

Interesting and smart system

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Random serious question,
What if say HP V8s and turbos cars were tuned to accept a mix of E85 and regular fuel?
About a 33% mix would add plenty of Octane to sustain high compression or high boost...


On another tack,
I remember Ford and Michigan Institute were toying with "Bobcat" project which consisted
of High boost Port injected engine running on normal fuel but supported by E85 acting as
a detonation suppressant via Direct Injection fule system - Ford indicating only around
3% volume of E85 is needed per volume of regular fuel under full boost/load conditions.

Massive amounts of torque and horsepower were discovered but the cost of two
fuel systems was more than the cost of making diesel engines compliant to the
US EPA emission regulations..

Correct, Bobcat was a very intelligent setup that cost a lot to produce mainstream, allowed high comp turbo engines to run in any situation on basically any base gasoline fuel (like 87 octane)

Originally Posted by MrXR8

At what temp does ethanol burn as opposed to usual unleaded petrol?

I mean we have heat rated plugs for a reason and they are there to burn regular fuel not this rubbish, so if it burns hotter than regular wouldn't it cause internal damage?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No.. I run heat range 10 (standard Boss 290 are heat range 5) plugs in both E85 and BP98 on the same car no issues....... you can actually get away with a hotter plug with Ethanol because it burns cooler, not hotter

Originally Posted by EF_6

I am not really concerned about E10 because the difference it makes to emissions would be close to two tenths of a pile of BS!

What I am talking about is the full strength E85 that was supposed to take the world over.....That's 85% Ethanol fuel per every litre.

It has been a flop and it is overwhelmingly obvious because the servos ar'nt changing all of there 91,95,98 pumps to E85 are they???

Why? Because the manufacturers cannot see the benefits of making cars that run this type of fuel!

Actually, it mostly public misconception.

E10 will support as much power as 96 octane and P100 (which is 98 octane E10) will make A LOT more power than 98... in fact there are a couple of cars (Frosty's F6 tuned by XFT is the best example I know of) that made 40rwkw more, thats with just 10% ethanol.

As for those that knock the government subsiding the fuel, think if it this way:

You buy ULP you give the government the full fuel excise.. like any taxpayer dollars this goes to foreign aid, welfare etc etc

You buy Ethanol based fuel... you pay LESS excise AND the farmer gets a cut, plus we cut foreign oil dependency.

Most tru-blu Aussies would rather see the latter happen

Also....... Unless im mistaken wasnt LPG subsidised heavily on introduction many years ago?...... kinda makes the "subsidy critics" here hypocritical?

Originally Posted by burnz

again you fail, manufacturers "can" see the benefits. but oil company's sell hydrocarbons. (they are the ones who make or brake a car makers direction)

in brazil there is no petrol just ethanol/biodiesel, so oil company's don't rule the roost.

Exactly.

Brazil is the benchmark here... their industry runs on E25 minimum and has been as high as E50 at points of time through history. Their cars are every bit as reliable as anywhere else in the world and their economy is stronger for it.

Only a fool would dismiss Ethanol. Henry Ford was smarter than everyone in this thread put together and he designed cars to run on Ethanol 100+ years ago... all thats changed is cheap finite fuels and greedy oil companies.


Daniel

[ebxr8240]

Sheesh !! G.M sell these cars with same or similar engines to South America where this fuel is used big time.. I doubt Holden spent too much developing there engines.. Oh yes taken "our" tax [NOT Gov money] and given to Holden or G.M..

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by ratter

LPG was real popular years ago wasn't it, took a long time before bowsers were fitted to most servo's

Over 30 years to get LPG to most servo's but oddly enough travel around Australia & you will be surprised as to many areas where LPG is not available & I'm not talking just remote areas.

Cheers.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Not trying to be a killjoy but didn't lPG octane get lowered dramatically a few years ago...?

And tank is cheaper but only gets you two-thirds as far?

years ago when butane was added to the propane the octane rating would have dropped.

Up until the recent price jump in LPG, it would cost me half the price to travel the same distance when using LPG in my FG Super Pursuit compared to running on 98 octane, yes the tank had to be filled more often but the running cost was more cost effective, but obviously any savings can only be taken into account once the install cost has been covered

[ratter]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Random serious question,
What if say HP V8s and turbos cars were tuned to accept a mix of E85 and regular fuel?
About a 33% mix would add plenty of Octane to sustain high compression or high boost...

it depends on whether an engine is knock limited on the fuel being used, if it is, yes then it will help.
The problem that can arise is making sure the mixture is correct every time and if trying to read the exhaust gas as Air to Fuel ratio, you will be guessing so it would make sense to read it as lambda to get a correct reading on what is coming out the exhaust.

But from other posts I see there are some that willing to accept a near enough attitude so they are happy to accept an incorrect reading as long as it is consistent.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by CAT600

As for those that knock the government subsiding the fuel, think if it this way:

You buy ULP you give the government the full fuel excise.. like any taxpayer dollars this goes to foreign aid, welfare etc etc

You buy Ethanol based fuel... you pay LESS excise AND the farmer gets a cut, plus we cut foreign oil dependency.

Most tru-blu Aussies would rather see the latter happen

Only a fool would dismiss Ethanol. Henry Ford was smarter than everyone in this thread put together and he designed cars to run on Ethanol 100+ years ago... all thats changed is cheap finite fuels and greedy oil companies.


Daniel

Terrific post Catman. Correcting the many mistruths about E85.
I'm yet to convert over to E85, but it is certainly an aim of mine. Not just for performance reasons, but NATIONAL interest. The majority of fuel purchased in Australia is from overseas. This increases our national debt and makes us poorer for it.

Why give massive money to overseas owned multinationals and often terrorist nations? Sorry, but I'd rather give it to Australian farmers who get more for their sugar cane as it's made generally from the leftover biomass.

[GASWAGON]

I'm pretty sure there is a hell of a lot of energy wasted to produce Ethanol.....Seeding/growing crops with diesel fuelled tractors....Then pulling the cane from the crops with diesel tractors then refining it into Ethanol with more energy again.

As least LPG is a by product of producing petrol and just needs to be refined!

[T4ME]

AF Ratio FTW!

[XBROO]

Didn't realize E85 or Ethanol products went back to the Australian farmer, You have got my ears pricked now.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Didn't realize E85 or Ethanol products went back to the Australian farmer, You have got my ears pricked now.

Ye me to..... The way I see it is we have two fuels that we do not have to import then....Ethanol and LPG.....Both are also better for the environment than petrol/diesel.

So, why the bloody hell ar'nt the government pushing everyone to use these fuels then???

Ford have the EcoLPi and Holden the E85 Commo. Marketing these cars better may have been enough to save them from closing down???

The Brazilians are obviously a fair bit smarter than us!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Ford have the EcoLPi and Holden the E85 Commo. Marketing these cars better may have been enough to save them from closing down???

Cant speak for E85, but as far as LPG goes, the public have spoken long ago. They simply don't want it. No point flogging that dead horse.

[XBROO]

Yeah but it hasn't been public knowledge that some of the profits stay in Australia. Fuel is one thing we can't buy on e-bay or get a cheap Chinese replacement. So to push the angle that a lot more profit stays in the country and it's not a big price difference. Then maybe it might get more support. I think the ethanol scare that it stuffs your motor, might have a lot to do with it as well.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by EF_6

I'm pretty sure there is a hell of a lot of energy wasted to produce Ethanol.....Seeding/growing crops with diesel fuelled tractors....Then pulling the cane from the crops with diesel tractors then refining it into Ethanol with more energy again.

As least LPG is a by product of producing petrol and just needs to be refined!

Ethanol does not impact the food bowl directly, it is produced with the leftover Molasses and husk of cane and crops respectively... the argument against comes in two forms:

1) This product could be used as feedstock however it is a low energy feed and other forms are better anyway

2) The subsidies and income generated by Ethanol production make it viable for land normally used for food production to be biased towards crop that is better suited to an Ethanol end-result... this is controlled by the level of subsidy in my eyes and the demand for food on the national and world stage will always setup that balance.

Fact is Biofuels do and should always play a role in this period of transition of fossil fuels to "the next big thing"... its going to be hard to replace the compact effectiveness of liquid based fuels but something will breakthrough, most likely it will conveniently coincide with total depletion of fossil fuel

Daniel

[b0son]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Yeah but it hasn't been public knowledge that some of the profits stay in Australia. Fuel is one thing we can't buy on e-bay or get a cheap Chinese replacement. So to push the angle that a lot more profit stays in the country and it's not a big price difference.

People are patriotic in talk, but not in action. Buying cheap imported products, shopping online rather than supporting local retail, etc. If the cost to run an LPG car isn't appreciably lower than petrol/diesel, its simply not going to happen, regardless of where the profit goes.

[XBROO]

Like I said you can't buy fuel online, and I wasn't just talking LPG. People want to buy local but the price difference is some time greater then 50%. So if you're struggling, people are always going to go the cheaper option. Even if it means buying a non Australian product, but this is a bit different as normal petrol isn't cheaper then these fuels. So it won't cost any more and you're putting back in to Australia.

[foxtrot3]

Hi. Comparing E85 to normal petrol in Vic isn't really fair as our LPG pricing tends to skew alternate fuels towards LPG. Our northern brothers never seemed to have the same advantage as us and the Federal govco subsidized ethanol can be used without any mods in lots of cases and it makes the greenies smile. Cheers MD

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by b0son

People are patriotic in talk, but not in action. Buying cheap imported products, shopping online rather than supporting local retail, etc. If the cost to run an LPG car isn't appreciably lower than petrol/diesel, its simply not going to happen, regardless of where the profit goes.

LPG & E85 sales would increase if it was more economically viable but when you have to pay for modifications & installation costs then try to recoup costs before you start to save the question is " Is it worth it" to others it not depending on how long you intend to keep vehicle.
I have had LPG vehicles in the past & after you pay for installation, maintenance & associated problems that come with LPG I will never use it again.

Petrol diesel for me!
Patriotism does not count when you are on a limited budget otherwise we all would be buying Australian products.

[CAT600]

Budget limitations you set yourself..... there are families that survive on $700 per week and single blokes that are on the bones of their ***** on $2500 per week, thats a fact

Its about being fiscally responsible and aware of your limitations, ive crossed the line on good money before its easy done in this day and age.

Having two plasma TV's in your house is easy when they are procured from China at $1500 or less each.. if it was Aussie made it would cost $3,000 but then the question is...

How many TV's do you need, and would you have bought Aussie if TV production wasnt killed in the 70's due to the very reasons Ford and Holden are exiting production here?

So Patriotism does have a price, we just choose not to afford it........ Falcons and Commodores (along with petrol) are still cheaper in todays adjusted prices than they were in the late 90's yet sales of large cars are shunned not because of these costs (obviously) but because our expectations of BFYB have changed and a 50K XR8 in 2015 will not be seen as attractive as a 50K XR8 in 1999 (I paid $52K for my AU1 XR8 in '99)

So is it the TV/Cars/Fuels fault.......

Or ours?

Daniel

[XBROO]

Don't know? I still have a 68 cm box.

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Don't know? I still have a 68 cm box.

Talking about your tv, yeah?

[XBROO]

No talking about my Upsy Daisy.

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by XBROO

No talking about my Upsy Daisy.

Just laughed iced coffee out my nose, now yummy mummies in play caf looking at me weird. Well, more weird than usual.

Is e-fuel a no-go for mowers? Mine is running crap since returned by bro in law

[burnz]

Originally Posted by EF_6

So, why the bloody hell ar'nt the government pushing everyone to use these fuels then???

govco did push it, because a certain ex prime minister owns 30%...

Originally Posted by EF_6

As least LPG is a by product of producing petrol and just needs to be refined!

depending on the fuel you want the rest is by product...
don't throw the pork chop's and bacon, just because you want ham...

[MrEL]

Originally Posted by CAT600

Correct, Bobcat was a very intelligent setup that cost a lot to produce mainstream, allowed high comp turbo engines to run in any situation on basically any base gasoline fuel (like 87 octane)


No.. I run heat range 10 (standard Boss 290 are heat range 5) plugs in both E85 and BP98 on the same car no issues....... you can actually get away with a hotter plug with Ethanol because it burns cooler, not hotter


Actually, it mostly public misconception.

E10 will support as much power as 96 octane and P100 (which is 98 octane E10) will make A LOT more power than 98... in fact there are a couple of cars (Frosty's F6 tuned by XFT is the best example I know of) that made 40rwkw more, thats with just 10% ethanol.

As for those that knock the government subsiding the fuel, think if it this way:

You buy ULP you give the government the full fuel excise.. like any taxpayer dollars this goes to foreign aid, welfare etc etc

You buy Ethanol based fuel... you pay LESS excise AND the farmer gets a cut, plus we cut foreign oil dependency.

Most tru-blu Aussies would rather see the latter happen

Also....... Unless im mistaken wasnt LPG subsidised heavily on introduction many years ago?...... kinda makes the "subsidy critics" here hypocritical?



Exactly.

Brazil is the benchmark here... their industry runs on E25 minimum and has been as high as E50 at points of time through history. Their cars are every bit as reliable as anywhere else in the world and their economy is stronger for it.

Only a fool would dismiss Ethanol. Henry Ford was smarter than everyone in this thread put together and he designed cars to run on Ethanol 100+ years ago... all thats changed is cheap finite fuels and greedy oil companies.


Daniel

So are you basically saying I would be better off running E10 in my tuned Windsor then the diet of V power it gets now?
Im interested.

[FG50T]

There is a severe lack of it in the north west/west. Closest servo for me is 15km away in a direction I never go in. If it was at every service station or at least BP's I'd be all over it. Mind you I've had two mates with flex fuel VE SS's and have no idea what it is.

[XBROO]

I know my hardtop likes United 100, it idles and runs better on it. But my bike doesn't like it, more then likely the bike is lower compression.