1200 ford workers to be stood down without pay tonight

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Very well said.

Also yes, the best way to send a message to a bad employer is leave and find another job...

Typycal small minded Tony Abbot type comment. What if all employers decide to be bad,and drop condtions and rates while supported by John Howard? Where do you look for a job than ?

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

Couldn't agree more. The problem with this country is we are pricing ourselves out of work. Too many people want to be paid more and more but aren't willing to put in the hours. Too many want everything for nothing.

Sure the cost of living goes up, but then the more people are paid the more it goes up to cover the costs (other factors also contribute to this) of these wage increases. Unions I am sorry are out of touch with industry and stir more trouble for employees than they do good. Adding tariffs will do nothing to curb this issue, we will be provided with further shoddy workmanship on products (god can you imagine the falcon being produced with mass protection tarrifs *shudder*). Honestly the way things are going I would rather buy the falcon if it was made overseas, it can't be any worse than here.

It is time to wakeup and rid of the century old industry outlook and realise we are deep in globalisation, we either try and compete or just sit back and do nothing. If we keep up with the current philosophy sure people will get their pay rise but how long will they have a job??

You can not compete with China and Co. That's the fact. Globalisation is just a cover up for getting rich multinational companies even richer. They are not worried if aussies will have a job in days to come. There must be another way to compete,or protecet out market from goods prodiced by underpaid and exploited people.

[Ghiadude]

for those that say "go and find another job" these people signed an employment contract that set out the terms and conditions of employment. If these arent met - what would you do?? would you say oh well i got shafted thats ok and walk away. not a chance in hell. these guys have a right to fight. regardless of the condition of the company broke or not they should get they signed for... could you imagine if an employee signed to work 38 hrs and only worked 30??? what makes this any different?? as for manufacturing - we kissed it goodbye when we abolished tarriffs. we can not compete with third world wages.

[|||]

the price you pay for dirt cheap plasma tvs is a reduction in the manufacturing sector.

the unions or the goverment dont decide where people spend their money. most people wont pay more for products just to keep an uncompetitive industry alive.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by SumoDog68

Typycal small minded Tony Abbot type comment. What if all employers decide to be bad,and drop condtions and rates while supported by John Howard? Where do you look for a job than ?

This "us and them" mentality is pathetic and does no good what so ever..
Why would an employer want to be "bad"?? unhappy staff is poor productivity, everyone i know who owns their own business goes out of their way to keep their staff happy, its small minded to blindly blame the business owner for a change in economic climate or lack of profitability... its his leagl responsibility and obligation to take what ever action is needed to ensure the business can pay its way. There are far more factors at play than simply the owner getting greedy and wanting to screw his staff.....

The real issue is poor gullible employee's been fed a load of tripe by their supposed representitives and led down the garden path to protest against something that may not even be happening or may have extenuating circumstances associated with it...

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by tx3dude

for those that say "go and find another job" these people signed an employment contract that set out the terms and conditions of employment. If these arent met - what would you do?? would you say oh well i got shafted thats ok and walk away. not a chance in hell. these guys have a right to fight. regardless of the condition of the company broke or not they should get they signed for... could you imagine if an employee signed to work 38 hrs and only worked 30??? what makes this any different?? as for manufacturing - we kissed it goodbye when we abolished tarriffs. we can not compete with third world wages.

If the contract is broken or not honoured there are legal avenues to get your entitlements.

As far as tarrif protection goes :
Would you pay $10,000 for a locally made plasma screen? or $60,000 for a 100% locally manufactured BF XT Falcon? Or $100 for a locally manufactured toaster?

[elgt146]

Australia is one of the most taxed countries in the world.

Our wages don't match our lifestyle and businesses can't compete against overseas companies.

We should take a tip from Dubai. Tax free if not at least allow small businesses that run at less than say $100,000 per year be tax free.
This would allow small business to grow, expand and get themselves in a position of growth.

My ex lives there so she has told me how it works. Just wish she would give me some of her tax free money.

How many small business owners struggle to pay their GST, taxes. At a guess it would be tens of thousands if not hundreds.

Yes we do have massive amounts of resources but until we get infrastructure oin place we will never be able to compete in manufacturing.

We have boats waiting to load offshore for up to weeks. We have poor rail systems and the list goes on.

You have to put in money to make money and the big knobs haven't done that.

They are too concerned spending millions of dollars on fireworks, stadiums, APEC Meetings and terrorism booklet mailouts.

As for Ford, Once again the media have dragged their name through the mud when it wasn't even them.

[|||]

small business owners actaully get a pretty good deal on taxes. plenty of tax exemptions open to them that aren't open to others.

as unpopular it is on a personal level, uncompetitive businesses deserve to die. if jimmy in china can make a better plasma tv than bob in sydney for a lower price then so be it. i'm not paying more for bob's tv just because he is an aussie.

[banarcus]

This thread reminds me of when I was working as a fitter/machinist 10+ years ago. I worked for a small manufacturing company and while we had a few problems, we could always go to the boss and work things out. I wasn't in a union at the time and I used to negotiate my pay, even when I was still an apprentice. I figured, if I worked hard and was flexible, I could have a little bargaining power when it came to asking for a payrise. I understand that this can work in small business but doesn't happen in large companies but anyway...
I went overseas after BHP at Newcastle shut shop. BHP gave my workplace plenty of maintenance type work and when they went, it hurt us very badly. I remember when the grim reaper went around one day and told people that they no longer had a job. He came up to me and told me that I was being inducted at a large hunter valley mine. What a relief.

I left that place and went overseas for 2 years. After returning to the trade and working for another small company, I realised that the trade in my area was struggling and looking at the big picture, my future was to either work for a company that relies on the mineral resources industry for mainentance work or find a completely different job as the manufacturing game is caput in Australia.

This was all in a small space of 10 years. My point is that people must realise that the old days are over. If you wish to maintain your current standard of living, you must be prepared to be flexible with pay and hours as much as it hurts or just find another job. I can say that I now work for the NSW government with job security that I could only dream of when I was younger.

I am in no way taking a swipe at those in Venture and I support them 100%. I'm only sharing my experiences.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by ClevlndStemer

Unions I am sorry are out of touch with industry and stir more trouble for employees than they do good.

They said the unions were out of touch at the Wavehill walkout too.
They said they were out of touch when they wanted women to have equal pay as men. They said they were out of touch when they wanted basic health and saftey for all employees.

Unions aren't the boogey man that they are made out to be. They are just a coalition of employees who use numbers to fight power. Large powerful unions capable of bullying business' were created by large powerful companies that were trying to do the same. You don't like the unions move to China, India or any other nations that maintain a class sytem.

[brodfloyd]

Hang on everyone, There are far larger problems afoot. Everyone is quick to bemoan the downfall of australian manufacturing and either blame the union movement or liberalist economic policy. But that has really very very little to do with it.

The media champion cars that are made overseas in places like korea and thailand and the vast majority of new cars sold in australia each year come from overseas. Its just blatant hypocracy. Everyones doing it, we need a solution, not to just go over the problem and shift blame.

This whole venture thing is a perfect example of it. Forget the politics and blame game behind it.

The broader picture is, it costs alot more to make stuff in australia than it does in asia because we have a good wages and standard of living, and so we should. No need for debates as to why, its just the way things are and I dont know anyone who is in favour of changing that. If having a strong manufacturing industry domestically, meant people getting paid $50 a week, then "bye bye to manufacturing" is the stance in most moderate peoples minds.

Venture wants to make money, they most likely are pretty greedy about it because they have shareholders, and shareholders dont care about the employees, they care about dividends and share price. How many of us here have shares??? Would you be happy that the share price went down over the long term so that the employees will get a 'fair go'?? No, of course not, its your super and you want to be comfortable in your old age.

The media, government, unions, employers all like to shift the blame amoungst one another and outside factors. eg, "The Australian dollar is too high", SO WHAT? it means the countries economy is doing well, if the bum fell out of it everyone would be complaining because imports cost too much etc.

Everyone jumps up and down about it, often people say "australian manufacturing is dead, we need tarrifs, how could the gov let this happen?"

But, then we all hop in foreign built cars (that was 2000 dollars cheaper than the equivilent falcon) goes to harvey norman to buy their cheap taiwan built plasma tv and off to target for the cheap chinese clothes etc.

If you dont support it with your cash, then dont expect it to survive. How many of us are wearing australian made clothes? where were the appliances in your house made? I know today tonight take it to town and overstate it, but the point is, it costs too much to make stuff here that anyone will actually buy.

First it was clothing and appliances, now its cars.

You cant have your cake and eat it too. I'm as much to blame as everyone else.

Specifically with this issue and this forum, we care about ford and the ford falcon.
Falcons cost alot more than their foreign direct competitors because it costs more to make them.
BUT, If they cost too much because ford use the best technology and materials and pay their workers fairly, no one buys them.
If they reduce quality or technology to match the price of their cheaply built overseas competitors, no one buys them.
If they cut how much they pay the people to build them and keep technology and cheap price, they will (quite rightly) go to jail.
Everyone is quick to blame ford for its supplier dramas, but other companies that assemble cars here dont even use an australian company to build bumpers and dashes etc. The vast majority is done off shore (60% of its parts for the commodore as its the only profitable way in their opinion).

I know some people say, "I dont want to buy a falcon because i want something that meets my needs better and hence i want a small car and the only ones available are from overseas."
BUT, if you, your parents and grandparents had kept buying localy made cortinas/lasers/escorts etc then maybe we would have had a local small car industry now. They didnt though, because they cost too much and the quality wasnt there. I'm not blaming anyone, the cars were no longer competitive and it cost too much to build something new that is competive here.

As a country, we have 3 options.

1. All buy only australian made and owned stuff and pay alot more for it and restrict imports. THis is what is known as protectionist. however this was the policy up until the 60's and most see it as a step backwards. Because it works in the short term and is an absolute disaster in the medium to long term.

2. Cut wages, cut conditions, cut living standards, boost exports because our manufactured products will cost less and make big corporations more money. (bad idea, and i dont think anyone less rich than rupert murdoc would think its a good idea) the rich will get richer, and the middle class will soon become the poor.

3. Move on, focus on things that we can do and be profitable, keep our standard of living and have a progressive, modern global economy.

This way we can keep wearing our cheap clothes, keep driving our cheap well made toyotas, keep watching our cheap plasmas and keep our cheap fridge/freezer, washer/dryer and maintain our standard of living.

Thats why car companies are exporting knowledge and engineering expertise. Thats why we design alot of things here and the actual production takes place overseas. Thats why we sell iron ore and not iron bars, cos only we can get it out of the ground, but it costs too much to treat everyone fairly and value add. However, im not stupid enough to pretend that everyone is going to be an engineer and that will fix all of the countries labour problems, but there are other areas that as a nation we can exploit.

Unions, governments and employers should cut the blame and propaganda and work together to help move people from their industries that are no longer viable into ones that are. This isnt a quick fix, how do you move a 55 year old who has only done the one thing his whole working life??? Its really hard, and probably impossible in those cases. But starting a new generation of workers in the same jobs and repeating the cycle is not the solution either.

Now this may mean large population shifts, away from areas that were traditionally manufacturing and factory areas, into areas where they can do things like mining and this has its own set of problems too.

Overall, i think that this is the best option, but it is by no means a trouble free one. it has its own list of problems a mile long but overall i think its the best option.

thankyou, and that is why you should all vote for me brodfloyd for president of the world.

[|||]

^ i wish to subscribe to your newsletter

[nugget378]

Yes lets all work for less..

Housing prices have gone up astronomically,as have fuel prices,groceries etc etc etc,all the staples cost so much more,but some are pushing the bandwagon of wages being too high.

Will these companies providing these services lower prices if wages are lowered? of course they will

Just cast a critical eye over the REAL cost of living increase in the last 20 years,not that rigged cpi index we are fed,have a look at a newspaper from 1987 and one from today and compare prices,then ask someone on a wage how much it has gone up in those 20 years,has it doubled?
Not in my sector it hasnt,but housing has gone up 10 times,fuel almost as much,groceries even more.

Will protecting our industry and workers produce sub quality goods?

Have a look at the build quality of cars we used to make,all made by workers under such a system,who were all fat and lazy and every thing they made was crap.
Then tell me why the expected lifespan of a product made under such a system was 2 times of the equivalent made now?

All unions are out of touch,and big business and the "market" has our best interest at heart,dont make me laugh,a union is not some abstract monster,a union IS the workers,I have been on both sides,both as a worker and union member and a small business owner and employer and no union is out to screw an employer and send them broke,or hold them hostage,if the employer goes belly up the unions MEMBERS lose their jobs,when you see a union fighting hard for something you can bet your life it is with good reason,because an employer IS actually trying to screw them.

[SB076]

hmm interesting and I think this topic will surface plenty of times in the future. Bascially we are extremely lucky to have what we have and guess what? Now the rest of the world wants it, so they offer cheaper wages etc to try and get there share, but the only way they can get a greater share is by taking it from someone else. Manufacturing in Aus is struggling to compete, because wages overseas are far cheaper ($5 US per week in some countries) Can we drop our wages to regain the work - no I dont think we can as others have said the cost of living has risen too much. However if we are to have any manufacturing remain in Aus (and I think we need to keep as much as possible) then we cant afford to increase wages either.

This doesnt just affect manufacturing this will have an impact on all areas, for example governments (both fed and local) are trying to reduce the cost of houses - one way they could do that is grant more working visas to builders from overseas with a large % of the cost of building labor this will reduce the cost of building a new home. Now I dont think this is a great idea - however if there are say 1 million jobs in Aus that are in the manufacturing sector and they all loose there jobs - well then they will put a lot of pressure for cheaper houses etc and the government will take notice. Also keep in mind if that many jobs are lost they will look elsewhere for empolyment (such as trades etc) The world is getting a lot more competitive and this will effect everyone if it keeps going down the current path

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

They said the unions were out of touch at the Wavehill walkout too.
They said they were out of touch when they wanted women to have equal pay as men. They said they were out of touch when they wanted basic health and saftey for all employees.

Unions aren't the boogey man that they are made out to be. They are just a coalition of employees who use numbers to fight power. Large powerful unions capable of bullying business' were created by large powerful companies that were trying to do the same. You don't like the unions move to China, India or any other nations that maintain a class sytem.

I agree with everything you have said, and I own and run a business with my dad.

The argument we dont need unions because most employers treat there workers in the right way, sounds wonderful in theory but the facts are multinational corporations generaly dont give a s#%t about there workers,all they care about is increasing there profits and keeping there share holders happy.

Unions didnt fall out of the sky in australia between 1850 and 1900 they were created for a reason,that reason being that most jobs that were labour intensive,mining,sheep shearers,labourers and also alot of labour intensive trades,as a general rule these people were treated like dirt.

Some union heavy didnt walk up to them and demand they join his union,by the workers uniteing and collectively bargaining they became a "union" of workers.

I am far from a unionist and completely disagree with the way alot of unions conduct themselves but all these people that just continually rubbish them no very little about the history of industrial relations in this country.

And anyone who works under eba's as opposed to awa's and still rubbishes unions doesnt no what they are talking about because eba's are unions.

[SB076]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

The manufacturing industry is over in Australia, its had it time and cannot compete with 3rd world manufacturing. If you look at Holden for example 60% of its parts are manufactured offshore, this allows them to produce cars at a cheaper cost, while manufacturers here that supply Ford struggle to supply parts at prices that match overseas suppliers to keep the business.

Thats an interesting point, I dont believe Holden is producing cars at a cheaper cost. On paper yes some of the sub components are cheaper, however in practise I doubt they will make any more money per car than what they did 10 years ago when the majoirty of the car was manufactured locally. The reasoning behind this is that the buyers buy on piece price alone, this fails to take into account logistics, forward ordering, addtional scheduling, increased inventories, currency movements and quality issues

I also think it would be a major mistake to cease manufacturing in Australia. Why because once China has the majority of manufacturing do you think the price will remain the same? Think Japan after the second world war, parts manufactured there were cheap (excess labor, low living standards) and they produced cheap throw away rubbish, however slowly there living standards improved and there quality improved and there product became more expensive.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Very well said.

Also yes, the best way to send a message to a bad employer is leave and find another job...

What about when the econimy turns down again? Where are the protections for workers when they can't leave and get a job the next day. That is when we get people working for bugger all and having to work two jobs to try and buy their groceries.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by irish2

What about when the econimy turns down again? Where are the protections for workers when they can't leave and get a job the next day. That is when we get people working for bugger all and having to work two jobs to try and buy their groceries.

"If" the economy turns down were in a much better position to adapt now then when there was rigid ratchet type rules in place that effectively prohibited or financially penalised businesses down sizing or shedding un needed staff....
People keep forgetting businesses arent bottomless buckets of money, if a business looses 40% of its income they must reduce their costs to match, or go broke. Id rather see some loose their jobs and some keep their jobs than the company be forced into keeping everyone or paying rediculously extravigant payouts that cause the business to colapse anyway.. then no one gets anything....

[irish2]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

"If" the economy turns down were in a much better position to adapt now then when there was rigid ratchet type rules in place that effectively prohibited or financially penalised businesses down sizing or shedding un needed staff....
People keep forgetting businesses arent bottomless buckets of money, if a business looses 40% of its income they must reduce their costs to match, or go broke. Id rather see some loose their jobs and some keep their jobs than the company be forced into keeping everyone or paying rediculously extravigant payouts that cause the business to colapse anyway.. then no one gets anything....

Yes when the economy turns down workers will lose their jobs but with the current laws the workers left on will be paid stuff all. Then when the economy is booming again the wages might increase by 4% a year again but were reduced back initially to 1970's rates. In the meantime the cost of living has incresed not decreased and we are left with people who would get paid more on a dole scheeme that actually working.

[ltd]

First off, let me say that I think unions have done some great things in terms of fighting for rights however, I believe they have one some terribly bad things too. This us and them approach is sickening considering that the world has moved on dramatically since the 70's/80's. The ideology/union mantra is incompatible with modern society especially since the advent of tools like the internet and peoples appetites for buying the cheapest products from around the world. Here, the union demands will only serve to be the death knell of industry in Australia.

To give you an example imagine that Australia's problems with global competition stem from the fact that we have priced ourselves out of the market globally. Our standard of living is very high however we have cyclical inflationary pressures brought about by unions, government and consumers and we are in a catch 22 situation.

What I'm referring to here is the automatic yearly wage increases. This is a trojan horse type deal as people enjoy receiving more money. The unfortunate thing is, business has to pay for this increase and as 4vman has correctly identified, they have are not bottomless pits of money. To cover the costs of increased wages businesses look at increasing prices. When they do this, the cost of their goods/services increases. As a business also has input costs for production such as material etc their suppliers also increase prices to cover their wage increases. So, a business must increase prices to cover the increased wages as well as the increased input costs; not to mention the higher superannuation, taxes and levies levelled at them due to the proportion of increased costs.

As a rule, this is accounted for when the impost initially hits and the price of selling the goods/services increases at the same time to a tune of between 3-5%. Businesses always allow for contingency and ergo tend to increase prices over the impost of the new wages and input costs. The average wage increase therefore is less than the increase in consumer goods, costs to live and various other expenses.

The problem here is that prices always keep ahead of wage increases and thusly we are essentially chasing our tales for the 1-2 month repriece we receive when wages go up. The onflow effect of this is best measured with a spiral. As wages go up, the cost of living sits just in front and is chased by wages up the spiral. In an isolated economy this poses no problem but on the global scale, we are increasing this artificial cost of living far faster than our competitors like china and india. If we truly wish to compete on the global scale, we need to make the average wage less, the cost of living much less and the value of the dollar needs to decrease back to about 50 cents US.

I think what the government is trying to do with workchoices is to ensure that the country still remains competitive globally. If we allow our country to become dictated to by the unions who insist every 6 months on wage increases then we may end up like post war germany where the average wage was 1 million dollars and the average price of bread was 3 thousand dollars. This works fine in theory but the problem is our global customers will never pay 3 thousand dollars for bread when they can get it for 3 cents in china.

On a personal note, I resent unions making all bosses out to be criminals. I own/run a small business and I have had to take to flying for an airline so as to supplement income just to be able to afford to pay my staffs wages. These people making out that I am screwing my staff for the sake of a dollar irks me beyond contempt. Business is not a bottomless pit, and frankly should the unions get control in November I will bet my ATPL on thousands of businesses like mine closing up within the first 6 months. I'm not going to preach to people which way to vote, but I will ask that people consider every aspect of the employer/employee cycle before casting aspersions.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ltd

First off, let me say that I think unions have done some great things in terms of fighting for rights however, I believe they have one some terribly bad things too. This us and them approach is sickening considering that the world has moved on dramatically since the 70's/80's. The ideology/union mantra is incompatible with modern society especially since the advent of tools like the internet and peoples appetites for buying the cheapest products from around the world. Here, the union demands will only serve to be the death knell of industry in Australia.

To give you an example imagine that Australia's problems with global competition stem from the fact that we have priced ourselves out of the market globally. Our standard of living is very high however we have cyclical inflationary pressures brought about by unions, government and consumers and we are in a catch 22 situation.

What I'm referring to here is the automatic yearly wage increases. This is a trojan horse type deal as people enjoy receiving more money. The unfortunate thing is, business has to pay for this increase and as 4vman has correctly identified, they have are not bottomless pits of money. To cover the costs of increased wages businesses look at increasing prices. When they do this, the cost of their goods/services increases. As a business also has input costs for production such as material etc their suppliers also increase prices to cover their wage increases. So, a business must increase prices to cover the increased wages as well as the increased input costs; not to mention the higher superannuation, taxes and levies levelled at them due to the proportion of increased costs.

As a rule, this is accounted for when the impost initially hits and the price of selling the goods/services increases at the same time to a tune of between 3-5%. Businesses always allow for contingency and ergo tend to increase prices over the impost of the new wages and input costs. The average wage increase therefore is less than the increase in consumer goods, costs to live and various other expenses.

The problem here is that prices always keep ahead of wage increases and thusly we are essentially chasing our tales for the 1-2 month repriece we receive when wages go up. The onflow effect of this is best measured with a spiral. As wages go up, the cost of living sits just in front and is chased by wages up the spiral. In an isolated economy this poses no problem but on the global scale, we are increasing this artificial cost of living far faster than our competitors like china and india. If we truly wish to compete on the global scale, we need to make the average wage less, the cost of living much less and the value of the dollar needs to decrease back to about 50 cents US.

I think what the government is trying to do with workchoices is to ensure that the country still remains competitive globally. If we allow our country to become dictated to by the unions who insist every 6 months on wage increases then we may end up like post war germany where the average wage was 1 million dollars and the average price of bread was 3 thousand dollars. This works fine in theory but the problem is our global customers will never pay 3 thousand dollars for bread when they can get it for 3 cents in china.

On a personal note, I resent unions making all bosses out to be criminals. I own/run a small business and I have had to take to flying for an airline so as to supplement income just to be able to afford to pay my staffs wages. These people making out that I am screwing my staff for the sake of a dollar irks me beyond contempt. Business is not a bottomless pit, and frankly should the unions get control in November I will bet my ATPL on thousands of businesses like mine closing up within the first 6 months. I'm not going to preach to people which way to vote, but I will ask that people consider every aspect of the employer/employee cycle before casting aspersions.

Very well said, it sickens me to the core when this "us verus them" mentality comes out, i, like so many of my friends have driven themselves to desperation to keep staff happy and pay wages, ive gone without pay on more than one occasion to pay staff first.. like so many others have too.
To catagorise small buisness owners as greedy wealth mongers hell bent on screwing over their staff is worlds apart from reality.. sure there are bad eggs, but that goes both ways.. the sooner this broad mis-conception is overcome the sooner things will improve.

[steamin63]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

They said the unions were out of touch at the Wavehill walkout too.
They said they were out of touch when they wanted women to have equal pay as men. They said they were out of touch when they wanted basic health and saftey for all employees.

Unions aren't the boogey man that they are made out to be. They are just a coalition of employees who use numbers to fight power. Large powerful unions capable of bullying business' were created by large powerful companies that were trying to do the same. You don't like the unions move to China, India or any other nations that maintain a class sytem.

well said. unions [workers coalitions] also gave us every right that we take for granted, not employers nor governments. i find it very amusing that some people on this thread make statements like "wages are spiraling out of control and it's because of the 38 hour week" . well then set an example for the rest of us greedy, lazy, employee's. take a pay cut, donate 10 percent of your pay to the tax office , work an extra 2 hours a week for nothing or are you happy to see the "other bloke" make the sacrifices.

[ltd]

Thanks mate, from what I've read in the previous pages it seems abundant this "us vs them" mentality. I am in the same situation as you were before you had to close and frankly, when you are selling off assets to keep staff in jobs it is a bit annoying to be called a thief, liar and wealth monger. I guarantee you that whilst people may think the unions hold all the answers and thusly vote for them this coming election, they may find out the hard way that unions don't actually employ anyone; companies do.

[muppet]

I think you will find the us and them mentality is directed at big companies that make massive profits and still sack people and try and move their operations offshore . Not small businesses that try and do their best to make money and keep staff happy . You seem pretty happy to stereotype the unions but don't like it when it happens to you . There are bad unions just as there are bad employers to label them all the same is just being narrow minded .

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by steamin63

well said. unions [workers coalitions] also gave us every right that we take for granted, not employers nor governments. i find it very amusing that some people on this thread make statements like "wages are spiraling out of control and it's because of the 38 hour week" . well then set an example for the rest of us greedy, lazy, employee's. take a pay cut, donate 10 percent of your pay to the tax office , work an extra 2 hours a week for nothing or are you happy to see the "other bloke" make the sacrifices.

Are you serious? i worked 7 days a week for 2 full years and averaged 12 hrs a day in the early days of my business, i risked my house as security against loans to buy equipment for my STAFF to use and earn an income from, if i worked out an hourly rate for myself it would be approximatly $7.00 per hour during the early years... as an owner you don't clock on or clock off, there is no sick pay or over time allowance, you take the stress home with you at night..

Ive got 2 mates in similar positions.. and work 6-7 days a week just to cover staff on sick leave or who wont work paid over time or to fix mistakes made...
Ive worked on both sides of the fence as both an employee and employer, and i can tell you anyone who thinks running a business and ensuring their staffs employment security is protected and looked after is easy is kidding themselves....

99% of small business owners take on far more financial risk and responsibility than any employee can ever appreciate, and most of the time for small or minimal gain... and you know what.. if they do make a success of it then they deserve EVERY cent of the profit they make, because they've earnt it ten fold..

Sometimes the stress and anxiety and toll it takes on your physical and mental health just isnt worth it.

[Unco]

a lot of good points from both sides so far. i can relate to the small business owners out there as my parents used to own their own shop several years ago and i remember them working 7 days a week from 6am to 8pm just to keep things running and stopping the business from running into loss, and in the end, not even that helped.

i think, however, that with a small business, it is easier for the employer to have good working relations with his/her employees. it is when businesses become larger that you lose that personal touch and let's remember that we're talking about Venture Industries and they're not exactly a small business.

as for current monetary policy, all i have to say is that despite the 'spiraling effect' of the current format, you can't argue that we've been enjoying very stable interest/cash rates for more than 10 years and personally i wouldn't want that to stop.

a contract stating job security is nothing but an illusion. i feel bad for those people at Venture Industries if they thought that all they had to do was turn up for work every day and do the same thing until they retire. i hope they are right in their reasons to strike, but like others, i would probably go work for someone else. again, you can't blame people for getting stuck with a job that later in life finds them unable to get a good job with a different company or in a different field, but unfortunately these days that's the reality and if you're not multi-skilled then your chances are very limited, but who's to blame?

[ltd]

Originally Posted by muppet

I think you will find the us and them mentality is directed at big companies that make massive profits and still sack people and try and move their operations offshore . Not small businesses that try and do their best to make money and keep staff happy . You seem pretty happy to stereotype the unions but don't like it when it happens to you . There are bad unions just as there are bad employers to label them all the same is just being narrow minded .

I'm not trying to stereotype anyone, but I will admit I have very little time for unions when they seem hellbent on making me out to be a criminal who is only there to rob my staff.
The problem with the nirvana that unions wish to create is that the time for that has passed, consumers like everyone else here is the driving force behind imports and globalisation, sending Australian jobs overseas. As we have become more affluent and have had a major paradigm shift from aspiring for something as opposed to "must have now", we have basically sought out cheaper suppliers such as china and india to make our goods cheaper and thusly more available.
So whilst what the unions espouse is desirable, it is an economic faux passe'. Australia is not an island caught in a time warp. The rest of the world has grown up, china has developed as a booming manufacturer with a population of over 1 billion people; how do we compete with that? India isdoing the same, frankly all of asia is becoming world class manuafacturers. If someone had of told you in the 80's that most of Holdens cars will be coming from Korea would you have believed them?

The problem for the unions is that the world has really moved on, it is not 1920 or even 1980. If you want someone to blame, forget it. There is no one to blame; not government, consumers or unions. We are living in an evolving world that has certain desires and wants and Australia has emerged as a world leader in development and innovation. We have also excelled in science, technology and resources. There is hope however the constant wage push is only making consumers worse off through overcautious price increases which always tend to be higher than the increased input cost.

Regardless of wages there is only going to be a set amount of money in the economy, and the dollar is only plastic/paper. It's how much purchasing power the plastic/paper represents in real value that is a concern. $1000.00 will buy you far less than it did 5 years ago, or 50 years ago; and prices have steadily been increased to cover these higher amounts since then. Simply, if we have another wage increase then the cost to my business with wages and increased supplier costs may be 2-2.5%. As there are often suppliers who are late to reflect an increase I'll increase my prices by 3%. This happens across the board, and has been happening for the last 11 years. The consumer then pays for this excess amount. Now, if we take an employee who earns say $1000.00 per week, and earns a 2.5% increase each year for 11 years due to wage increases, how does this stack up against inflation derived from wage increases? Businesses prices go up 3%, and the net result after 11 years is the employee is in fact $64.00 worse off than he was before, and my model is conservative.

Businesses aren't raking in this as profit either, as they are gouged by the states who want more payroll tax as a result, and then there are new taxes being added by the aforementioned states just to sustain themselves. Look at your greenslip, notice the little $80.00 new health scheme for injured children? If you cancel your greenslip you get the premium back, minus the new little health scheme levy of $80.00. WTF? It's a new stealth tax administered by the states and it goes back to consolidated revenue. Then there's workers comp which is based on salaries. The more you are paid the more it costs to insure. Essentially, at every turn there is someone from predominantly the state government issuing new taxes, levies and fees that absorb any allowance for price increases. So you may ask, why don't businesses just raise their prices each year by 5-10%? Well, it's a two edged sword that makes you even less competitive internationally and as it is seldom unilateral individual businesses face the risk of ruin by outpricing themselves and forcing consumers to look elsewhere. It also pushes inflation which makes another business case for a wage increase. Don't believe me? Do you look around and fill up at the cheapest petrol station?

Frankly, something I think we could all agree on is that we pay a lot of taxes, (over 1050 are state taxes), unions tell as many porkies as politicians and we should abolish state governments all together.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are you serious? i worked 7 days a week for 2 full years and averaged 12 hrs a day in the early days of my business, i risked my house as security against loans to buy equipment for my STAFF to use and earn an income from, if i worked out an hourly rate for myself it would be approximatly $7.00 per hour during the early years... as an owner you don't clock on or clock off, there is no sick pay or over time allowance, you take the stress home with you at night..

Ive got 2 mates in similar positions.. and work 6-7 days a week just to cover staff on sick leave or who wont work paid over time or to fix mistakes made...
Ive worked on both sides of the fence as both an employee and employer, and i can tell you anyone who thinks running a business and ensuring their staffs employment security is protected and looked after is easy is kidding themselves....

99% of small business owners take on far more financial risk and responsibility than any employee can ever appreciate, and most of the time for small or minimal gain... and you know what.. if they do make a success of it then they deserve EVERY cent of the profit they make, because they've earnt it ten fold..

Sometimes the stress and anxiety and toll it takes on your physical and mental health just isnt worth it.

Oh man, you said a mouthful. Agree 100%.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Unco

a lot of good points from both sides so far. i can relate to the small business owners out there as my parents used to own their own shop several years ago and i remember them working 7 days a week from 6am to 8pm just to keep things running and stopping the business from running into loss, and in the end, not even that helped.

i think, however, that with a small business, it is easier for the employer to have good working relations with his/her employees. it is when businesses become larger that you lose that personal touch and let's remember that we're talking about Venture Industries and they're not exactly a small business.

as for current monetary policy, all i have to say is that despite the 'spiraling effect' of the current format, you can't argue that we've been enjoying very stable interest/cash rates for more than 10 years and personally i wouldn't want that to stop.

a contract stating job security is nothing but an illusion. i feel bad for those people at Venture Industries if they thought that all they had to do was turn up for work every day and do the same thing until they retire. i hope they are right in their reasons to strike, but like others, i would probably go work for someone else. again, you can't blame people for getting stuck with a job that later in life finds them unable to get a good job with a different company or in a different field, but unfortunately these days that's the reality and if you're not multi-skilled then your chances are very limited, but who's to blame?

Very good points there, and I'd agree that some large companies are separated from their employees at their peril. I'd also add that directors that strip companies of assets and then bankrupt the business should be prosecuted, and directors who make non payment of staff part of their strategic plan deserve jail too.

[superpursuit83]

Unions are a nessacary evil in my eyes. And I am forced to play the games with my type of work. But all my boys, (who are among the best paid in town with the best conditions and on a 35hr week before O/T), know that if I am pushed to far, I will sell my bussiness and go broke on a beach in Broome.

And as mentioned, us bussiness owners earn far less than our employees. And normally our stress levels are a lot higher. Its not easy by any means. (22years in the game before I could think about a 60k ute)