MOTOR Feb 2015: XR8 vs SSV Redline + XR6T vs SS

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by futura

Still waiting for Jesse Taylor (Editor, EVO Australia) to do a test on the FG X XR8. Eager to see if Jesse can break into the 12 sec quarter mile.

give it to me for half an hour

20 mins skids

10 mins srs

[SensationFG8]

Ahh nice find

Yep that's probably a fair bet then.

[pottery beige]

i just lied with the srs

[futura]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

give it to me for half an hour

20 mins skids

10 mins srs

Half an hour to run a 12 second quarter mile?

[SensationFG8]

He's gotta warm the tyres for 29mins.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by futura

Half an hour to run a 12 second quarter mile?

may blow out an hour or two

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

give it to me for half an hour

20 mins skids

10 mins srs

Does srs get deployed often when you drive?

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by blue sleeper

Does srs get deployed often when you drive?

nup

its all about the music

can you dig it

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

nup

its all about the music

can you dig it

*whoosh*

[arronm]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Well actually that almost 1s gap from 80-120 in its own right is an interesting stat. The XR8 should theoretically make up a second everytime the cars do that 80-120 sprint which should be quite a frequent occurrence at winton raceway. I think we can all agree on that?

Lets assume it happens at least once on every corner leading into a straight of some length (7 times) that's 7 seconds just in that 80-120 bracket not taking into account that the XR8 will keep pulling, 8.5 if you count the end difference at the end of the lap time.

To compensate for that lost second how much faster through the corners would the SSVR have to be? Lets remember that it's 3 seconds a lap faster than the SS, that 3 seconds is split up between brakes, suspension and tyres. It makes for some interesting thinking and opens up some questions.

1. What time of day did they test the XR8, SS and the SSVR?
2. Are the dunslops one of the main contributing factors here for the XR8?
3. Is the weight of the XR8 a factor in the braking?
4. Did they setup the tyre pressures equally on all cars?
5. How much of the time differential on the Holdens is just the brakes? A few here have noted the rubbish nature of the SS brakes.
6. Is the magazine implying the XR8 needs to wash off an extra 20-30km/h compared to the SSVR on each corner to make it around?

I suspect we'll get the answer to many of these questions over the next few months, or maybe they are answered in the article?

Edit one more question to ask...
Is the XR8 hitting the 230 per hour speed limiter on the big straights?
Motor has the GT (not Rspec) lapping within a 10th of the XR8 on Winton, that doesn't make sense to me unless we are hitting limiters.

If you have ever raced anything at the track you will know its all about corner speed.

Its mid corner speed and how quickly you can get back on the throttle.

And that's where the commodore is obviously better.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by blue sleeper

*whoosh*

broom

broom

screatch

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by arronm

If you have ever raced anything at the track you will know its all about corner speed.

Its mid corner speed and how quickly you can get back on the throttle.

And that's where the commodore is obviously better.

Sorry I missed the part where I claimed it had nothing to do with mid corner speed...

Interestingly one of the impacts to mid corner speed is the tyre and pressure.

The bridgestones are known to have fantastic cornering characteristics.

Edit: Lets put the two cars on a control tyre at control pressures and see the difference then?

[blue sleeper]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

broom

broom

screatch

Bang

Crunch

*******

[SensationFG8]

Actually was reading an article about Craig Lowndes and this very topic was covered.

“My driving style comes from my open wheel background,” Lowndes said.

“It is more about mid-corner speed and that is how I drive. It has helped at times and it has also hindered.” Lowndes revealed the biggest challenge of his career was moving to the Dunlop tyre after spending years on the mid-corner friendly Bridgestone. “That was tough when Dunlop came in as the control tyre. I had to learn to drive to the tyre. Before that, on the Bridgestone, it suited my style with the mid-corner speed and grip.

“The Dunlop was more about braking and accelerating. That was a huge change in my style and approach to racing.”

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by blue sleeper

Bang

Crunch

*******

no T5 full of carrots and cheese

no care

[arronm]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Sorry I missed the part where I claimed it had nothing to do with mid corner speed...

Interestingly one of the impacts to mid corner speed is the tyre and pressure.

The bridgestones are known to have fantastic cornering characteristics.

Edit: Lets put the two cars on a control tyre at control pressures and see the difference then?

I was in a way asking had you ever tracked anything and I was telling you that is where the SSV makes up the time. I am not guessing I know. You need of lot of speed down the straight to cover the time made up by just 1mph increase in corner speed. Thats racing 101.

I never said you said it had nothing to do with corner speed.

The tyres are what comes on the car stock. And these guys drive and report on cars for a living so I would be very surprised if they didn't check pressures at the track. But I could be wrong.

[SensationFG8]

The last mob used 40PSI in the XR8 when they compared it to the SS ;)

i dont like to assume these "credible" journalists actually check these things. I only trust the transparent ones who actually list out the things they do and check.

[arronm]

40psi hot at the track is about right. Street tyres on the track overheat quickly and deteriorate after several hard laps. The hotter they get the slippery they get. They are not manufactured to operate at the extreme temperatures like a race tyre.

[SensationFG8]

I'll try and double check if that was starting pressure or not, either way I don't agree it's actually a number you should be running at even hot. The pressure should be reduced accordingly to cater for the higher temperatures experienced on a track.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Well actually that almost 1s gap from 80-120 in its own right is an interesting stat. The XR8 should theoretically make up a second everytime the cars do that 80-120 sprint which should be quite a frequent occurrence at winton raceway. I think we can all agree on that?

Not every 80-120 is full throttle, not every run to/beyond 120 starts from 80, not every run from 80 onwards reaches 120.

Lets assume it happens at least once on every corner leading into a straight of some length (7 times) that's 7 seconds

Try 3, not 7.

Is the XR8 hitting the 230 per hour speed limiter on the big straights?
Motor has the GT (not Rspec) lapping within a 10th of the XR8 on Winton, that doesn't make sense to me unless we are hitting limiters.

Winton is not a fast circuit, there no 'big' straights. Tander in a VE2 GTS couldn't even hit 180kph. I think you need to rethink your assumptions about Winton.

[XR Martin]

Wheels noticed the XR8 had 45psi in the rear tyres after doing their acceleration runs.

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Not every 80-120 is full throttle, not every run to/beyond 120 starts from 80, not every run from 80 onwards reaches 120.

Winton is not a fast circuit, there no 'big' straights. Tander in a VE2 GTS couldn't even hit 180kph. I think you need to rethink your assumptions about Winton.

Yes we established later on that it would not hit the limiter

I don't think I claimed every run was from 80-120, it was about making some assumptions to establish a baseline to foster discussion.

The 7 points might be an over exaggeration I was counting the straights between 3 and 4, 11 and 12 I agree they probably aren't long enough to see that acceleration. There are at least 5 I would consider we should see 80-120ish accelerations.

1. Kitome straight
2. BP Ultimate straight
3. Foott Waste straight
4. Shannons straight
5. Falken straight

[2242100]

Originally Posted by SensationFG8

Well actually that almost 1s gap from 80-120 in its own right is an interesting stat. The XR8 should theoretically make up a second everytime the cars do that 80-120 sprint which should be quite a frequent occurrence at winton raceway. I think we can all agree on that?

Lets assume it happens at least once on every corner leading into a straight of some length (7 times) that's 7 seconds just in that 80-120 bracket not taking into account that the XR8 will keep pulling, 8.5 if you count the end difference at the end of the lap time.

To compensate for that lost second how much faster through the corners would the SSVR have to be? Lets remember that it's 3 seconds a lap faster than the SS, that 3 seconds is split up between brakes, suspension and tyres. It makes for some interesting thinking and opens up some questions.

1. What time of day did they test the XR8, SS and the SSVR?
2. Are the dunslops one of the main contributing factors here for the XR8?
3. Is the weight of the XR8 a factor in the braking?
4. Did they setup the tyre pressures equally on all cars?
5. How much of the time differential on the Holdens is just the brakes? A few here have noted the rubbish nature of the SS brakes.
6. Is the magazine implying the XR8 needs to wash off an extra 20-30km/h compared to the SSVR on each corner to make it around?

I suspect we'll get the answer to many of these questions over the next few months, or maybe they are answered in the article?

Edit one more question to ask...
Is the XR8 hitting the 230 per hour speed limiter on the big straights?
Motor has the GT (not Rspec) lapping within a 10th of the XR8 on Winton, that doesn't make sense to me unless we are hitting limiters.

One point to keep in mind is that if the XR8 is a second faster from 80 to 120 that doesn't mean that it will make up a second in track time each time it accelerates from 80-120.
Here's an example with some actual Performance Box GPS data from two of my stock XR6 T's runs at WSID in May. Run's 1 and run 4.

On run 1 the car was on full throttle and used just about every rev in second gear before changing into third at about 114, and the 80-120 time was 2.70.
On run 4, I was just wanting to run the engine to the cutout in third gear to test top end performance in that gear, so I short shifted into third at around 90 kmh and in this case the 80 - 120 time was 3.12 which is 4.2 tenths slower.

Below are the times and distances.
80-120 kmh.............................RUN 1..........2.70 seconds and 76.67 metres are covered.
80-115.32 kmh.........................RUN 4..........2.70 seconds and only 74.30 metres are covered.
So on the slower run the car covered 2.37 metres less in the same 2.70 second time period, and that was with a 4.2 tenth slower 80-120 time of 3.12 seconds.
Of course these distances would vary a certain amount depending on when the slower acceleration started (in the 80-120 run) but I think this example gives some idea of the effect.

Now extrapolate the 0.42 second time gap out to 1 second, and the difference we're looking at is 5.64 metres.
At 120 kmh a car will cover that distance in 0.169 of a second, so we're looking at around 1.7 tenths of effect on track time for an 80-120 one second time difference.
Of course as indicated above that would vary depending on how the two 80-120 runs were made up, but I think it demonstrates that a one second loss in 80-120 time shouldn't mean anything like a one second loss in track position at 120.

Regarding Jesse Taylor, he mentioned on the EVO AUSTRALIA facebook page that he intended to test an XR8 early in the new year. The hot weather at the moment won't help but if anyone can get a good time, then I reckon he can. He has had some good results.

[Bent8]

Here's a map... looks like the longest stretch is Kitome straight (about 480m long) which means the XR8 should get between 180 - 190kph depending on the previous corner exit speed.

I am of the opinion those Dunlops have to go and some decent rubber fitted to the XR8 so it can reach it's full potential on a tight track like Winton.

[HULK_I6T]

Is this thread only about performance?

I think its safe to say the xr8/xr6t have the ss/ss redline covered

Those who have driven the FGX xr8, when you jumped in did you have a look at the big panel of plastic around the gear selector? It's huge, the finish is in a cheap unfinished plastic look and not a button in sight? In a car for 2015 I find it extraordinary..

Sure the b series don't have any buttons either in that area but it's disguised a hell of a lot better with the zf panel larger in b series and the change of colour on the surround.. It's also not so large and flat an area like FGX

Have a look at the FGX in that area, deplorable

Look at the ss redline and you won't see that sort of finish. Look at an Audi or Mercedes in that area, buttons and knobs everywhere in the area your hands are likely to rest but in 2015 ford gives a plane Jane bare panel in a unfinished plastic look... I was completely stunned.

I was sitting there thinking does this look like $60k worth?

[1TUFFUTE]

And yet that's one of the very reasons it'll go down as one of, if not THE best BFYB muscle cars ever in Australia. It's not a sports car.......it's not a supercar.....it's a made to a cost GT car!
Love it

Still think it's dodgy the two ss models ran different 80-120 times. Because as pointed out....at those speeds even a tenth or 2 is a lot of ground to make up!

[graphicgoose]

Forged wheels, being lighter, would surely impact the 80-120 times a little?

[arronm]

I cant even sneeze in .13 seconds. Maybe their timing equipment isn't accurate down to 100 milliseconds

[SensationFG8]

Originally Posted by graphicgoose

Forged wheels, being lighter, would surely impact the 80-120 times a little?

No doubt but so does the higher friction of the fatter rubber and heavier brakes. Quite a few other places I've been trying to get numbers from have the redline 0.1 slower.

I've no doubt the redline is faster round a track than the SS. But their acceleration times don't add up Imo.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by HULK_I6T

Is this thread only about performance?

I think its safe to say the xr8/xr6t have the ss/ss redline covered

Those who have driven the FGX xr8, when you jumped in did you have a look at the big panel of plastic around the gear selector? It's huge, the finish is in a cheap unfinished plastic look and not a button in sight? In a car for 2015 I find it extraordinary..

Sure the b series don't have any buttons either in that area but it's disguised a hell of a lot better with the zf panel larger in b series and the change of colour on the surround.. It's also not so large and flat an area like FGX

Have a look at the FGX in that area, deplorable

Look at the ss redline and you won't see that sort of finish. Look at an Audi or Mercedes in that area, buttons and knobs everywhere in the area your hands are likely to rest but in 2015 ford gives a plane Jane bare panel in a unfinished plastic look... I was completely stunned.

I was sitting there thinking does this look like $60k worth?

Not enough knobs to play with down there hey Hulk.....

While your typical SSV owner fumbles for the right launch mode and accidentally engages the electic handbrake, the XR8 will half way down the drag strip !