Holden Commodore VE Series 2 BUSTED! (?)

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

The only thing I don't like about it, is that the Bonnet bulge ruins that Refined sort of Luxury look.

Of course, anything would look nicer then an E2 Senator, those things are fugly.

G6ET.

[mytgxl]

Sorry just a 1 eyed ford supporter! Who cares its a holden! Thats why I`m on a ford forum!

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Great work on the cgi's Josh.

Hopefully FG's styling updates next year will be better received. I've got a feeling it should.

I think GoAuto quoted Q3 2011 for the Falcon EcoBoost update, will the FG facelift be seen at the same time? Will we see any new Tech, MyFord and alike?

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by Professor Farnsworth

Yes of course BA to BF was subtle, we already know that, but that was done 3 years after the launch of the BA, then discontinued 3 years later, it was a mid flight change. The VE is being done 5 years after launch,

Why do some people keep saying that the VE is 5 years old??? It was launched around Aug 06 not 05. That makes it 4 years old and when you factor in the impact of the GFC, then it is much closer to the BA-BF mid life change. Also there was a significant mechanical upgrade three years into the VE’s life as well. The BF was an improvement and if you look at the grey CGI of the Berlina against the maroon one then however subtle, it is still an improvement. Personally I think it is actually a reasonable improvement overall. It certainly looks a little more Euro and dare I say it, a little more German too but what would I know???

This time frame for a first release model is not unique to Holden either as they already have a couple of precedence in place already. The VT ran for three years with minor updates, the VN ran for three years with minor updates, but the daddy of em all was the HQ. It ran from late 71 to late 74 with virtually no updates at all. All this was before the crippling GFC that bought nearly all car makers (not just GM) to their knees world wide.

Ford know how to run a model out as well, remember the XF - 84-88, and what a workhorse that legend ended up being for Ford. This was at the end of the models life, not at the beginning (like the Commodore), and off the back of huge wide body sales for Ford Australia, and when you consider that it was still basically an XA underneath, then this really makes it a great achievement for Ford overall.

If they ever run out of HQ's for racing, then maybe the XF should be the next category.

It is also worth noting that there were just three models (XD XE XF) only over an entire decade (E series there was five) and during a time when they also exceeded their sales expectations as well. Only Ford has repeated this since with the AU BA BF. If they did not have the BF update however slight, then they would have had only 2 models over a decade.

I see the VE update much the same as the HT-HG. The HQ was not ready so the HG was created as stop gap only, Ford could have and probably should have done the same with The XF because the EA clearly was not ready at that time either. The next change to the Commodore may be bigger than what we think.

Bud Bud

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Boss315

I think GoAuto quoted Q3 2011 for the Falcon EcoBoost update, will the FG facelift be seen at the same time? Will we see any new Tech, MyFord and alike?

I can't really comment on the tech side coz I'm not too sure... but I think it's unlikely we'll see those enhancements next year simply because of local supplier issues etc.

On the timing... I've heard to be expect it around the time of the Tezza update.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

On the timing... I've heard to be expect it around the time of the Tezza update.

What the! Isn't the Territory being shown at the Sydney Motor Show this year and then going on sale early 2011! We might see EcoBoost before Coyote at this rate.

[JPFS1]

depends who you speak to... some say it should be ontime, end of 1st qtr, others expecting later...

considering some of the things i know, later is probably closer to the truth.

We have to wait it out.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

depends who you speak to... some say it should be ontime, end of 1st qtr, others expecting later...

considering some of the things i know, later is probably closer to the truth.

We have to wait it out.

Think the key is Ford getting product details out into the media to extingish some of the hype around the VE2 launch.

I can't wait to see how the GMH Marketing department top 'The most important change in Commodore's History'.

[JPFS1]

Yeah well could have been an issue but considering the VE update is quite minimal, Ford can probably breathe a sigh of relief.

Holden will have to contend with some pretty impressive stuff from Ford next year. It's good to be on the Ford side i'd say.

[R-Design]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Yeah well could have been an issue but considering the VE update is quite minimal, Ford can probably breathe a sigh of relief.

Holden will have to contend with some pretty impressive stuff from Ford next year. It's good to be on the Ford side i'd say.

You do realise the Holden faithful will go into rapture over just about anything, or even the promise of something. Ford need to implement the marketing equivalent of ‘shock and awe’ to get the message across. Leave them with no illusion as to their inferiority, that’s the only way to make inroads in a two horse race.

[uranium_death]

According to the CGIs, they've just put more lines in the car to give it shape.
For me, the differentiation between the Omega and the Calais was minimal. From the front, except for a piece of chrome on the grille, it looked identical.

Those CGIs add a bit of shape to the car, but it still looks very similar.

I personally do not know why Holden even bothered with exterior upgrades. No matter what they do, people seem to buy Commodores. They could have saved a bit of money there.

The interiors, especially on the Omegas really need a working over...

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by 1 bad ef

Sorry just a 1 eyed ford supporter! Who cares its a holden! Thats why I`m on a ford forum!

Wonderful contribution to the thread.

Doesn't look too much different, but I guess Holden are confident in the looks. It'll still sell by the ton.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by 1 bad ef

Sorry just a 1 eyed ford supporter! Who cares its a holden! Thats why I`m on a ford forum!

[sxckevo]

Sorry guys I seriously can't see any difference apart from that rear boot to me. Even though BA-BF update was minor there was at least a noticeable change this is bellow par IMO if these are real they make me a very happy man

[Iggypoppin']

I guess we really will have to wait and see. The buyers seem to love it, as indicated by sales. Will this trend continue? We shall see!

[Falc'man]

The changes are more than BA to BF.

Also, let's not forget, there is a lot we don't know. We do know there's a new interior, although it can only be an improvement - visually - so the big question about the interior would be does it still feel tacky.

The BF came with a more refined, quieter and feel, whilst improving on the feel of solidity. This VE2 may also benefit from such an improvement (to be on par BF lol j/k).

Holden's ads are very good. Watch how they will get away with advertising it as an all-model.

VE2's Budget, ~$90m.
VE2's Marketing Campaign, ~$150m.

[uranium_death]

I still remain adamant that Holden did not have to touch the exterior at all.

The VE looks terrible in sedan form in my opinion.
I like the FG, Honda Accord Euro, Mitsu Lancer...even the Maxima has tried to improve its looks (interior still is cacky though).

Regardless, people buy them. If the Falcon had the VE body and the VE had the FG body, Holden would will the sales regardless.

Ford need not get sucked into the numbers game. Just silently produce quality vehicles and let that sell itself.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

I still remain adamant that Holden did not have to touch the exterior at all.

They didn't have the money to do any significant changes.

VE2 = new plastic bits and not much else. :yawn:

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Why do some people keep saying that the VE is 5 years old??? It was launched around Aug 06 not 05. That makes it 4 years old and when you factor in the impact of the GFC, then it is much closer to the BA-BF mid life change. Also there was a significant mechanical upgrade three years into the VE’s life as well. The BF was an improvement and if you look at the grey CGI of the Berlina against the maroon one then however subtle, it is still an improvement. Personally I think it is actually a reasonable improvement overall. It certainly looks a little more Euro and dare I say it, a little more German too but what would I know???

This time frame for a first release model is not unique to Holden either as they already have a couple of precedence in place already. The VT ran for three years with minor updates, the VN ran for three years with minor updates, but the daddy of em all was the HQ. It ran from late 71 to late 74 with virtually no updates at all. All this was before the crippling GFC that bought nearly all car makers (not just GM) to their knees world wide.

Ford know how to run a model out as well, remember the XF - 84-88, and what a workhorse that legend ended up being for Ford. This was at the end of the models life, not at the beginning (like the Commodore), and off the back of huge wide body sales for Ford Australia, and when you consider that it was still basically an XA underneath, then this really makes it a great achievement for Ford overall.

If they ever run out of HQ's for racing, then maybe the XF should be the next category.

It is also worth noting that there were just three models (XD XE XF) only over an entire decade (E series there was five) and during a time when they also exceeded their sales expectations as well. Only Ford has repeated this since with the AU BA BF. If they did not have the BF update however slight, then they would have had only 2 models over a decade.

I see the VE update much the same as the HT-HG. The HQ was not ready so the HG was created as stop gap only, Ford could have and probably should have done the same with The XF because the EA clearly was not ready at that time either. The next change to the Commodore may be bigger than what we think.

Bud Bud

I commend your theoretical thinking, but as an ex insider of GM i can and will say that the above rational has no bearing on their timing.
Fact is GM Holden WERE DESPERATE to launch an updated SII facelift end of 2008 first q of 09, but were held back due to their financial position and basically stopped by GM Detroit. As it turned out, the forecast for revision was looking likely to be around 2012, by which time of course Commodore would be irrelevant in its orig VE form, hence the earlier launch.

Its design merits however are not real forward thinking, and has taken a conservative approach backwards resembling what others perceive as Fords B series highlights.
This wouldnt be a 1st time though, look how Holden bagged AU - only to then try replicate its design elements in VY-VZ.

enuff said..............

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

They didn't have the money to do any significant changes.

VE2 = new plastic bits and not much else. :yawn:

But that isn't my point.

My point was the Commodore could be anything and people would buy it...
They didn't need to do anything to the exterior.

[Iggypoppin']

Holdens current ad campaign is good, in theory.
"go try any other car if similar price and size, and you'll like ours better, may the best car win etc etc"
it'll be interesting to see a customer drive an SS back to back with a ZF equipped xr6t, a Calais against a G6Et, etc etc, I think the campaign will not be on much longer if these sorts of comparos result in falcon sales!

[sxckevo]

Personally I don't get these so called 'good Holden ads'. They don't seem any better than fords new ones, or the new mazda ones. What makes them great? I love the new 50th anniversary ad, feels a alot more upper class to me than the Holden ads

[Iggypoppin']

They're both good ads in their own right, it's just Holden use the whole "proudly Australian" thing and tug at the heartstrings with soft music, soppy "family" scenes and cute girls, whereas ford play to their strengths and sell the car, not a pack of guff designed to fool the masses.

[sxckevo]

Yeh I guess so, makes sense when you put it like that

[Iggypoppin']

The way I see it, by definition it's a good ad/ad campaign if it sells cars. If it doesn't sell cars, it can't be too good can it? The product has to be good too of course, let's not forget.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

The way I see it, by definition it's a good ad/ad campaign if it sells cars. If it doesn't sell cars, it can't be too good can it? The product has to be good too of course, let's not forget.

It is not just the advertising but the brand image which creates most interest and sales in a company's products. How else could you explain Holden selling so many cars made by GM-DAT (Daewoo)? There is no way those models would sell as well if they were wearing Daewoo badges.

Ignorance also plays a big role in people's perception of a brand's value.

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by Resurrection

It is not just the advertising but the brand image which creates most interest and sales in a company's products. How else could you explain Holden selling so many cars made by GM-DAT (Daewoo)? There is no way those models would sell as well if they were wearing Daewoo badges.

Ignorance also plays a big role in people's perception of a brand's value.

I should have included these points, ignorance and (percieved)image. The image of Holden, the Aussie battler, true blue(red??) brand and overall underdog that everybody loves is one they have worked hard to create.
I think when they manufactured saddles they where true blue battlers, until GM signed a deal to own them for ever.

[Bobman]

With so much talk about the VE update, why isn't there much talk about the updated FGs that were due from July 1?

Still curious to see if there have been any styling changes made at all (however minimal).

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

I guess we really will have to wait and see. The buyers seem to love it, as indicated by sales. Will this trend continue? We shall see!

Well if they keep the VE Omega at VT pricing I guess they will pull higher numbers.

Originally Posted by sxckevo

Personally I don't get these so called 'good Holden ads'. They don't seem any better than fords new ones, or the new mazda ones. What makes them great? I love the new 50th anniversary ad, feels a alot more upper class to me than the Holden ads

The current crop of ads aren't anything special. But they have done well with the Cruze and the wagon (well hatch) is popular. Holden do a good ad from time to time but not everything they bring out is great. Mazda would be the best in that.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by fte50

I commend your theoretical thinking, but as an ex insider of GM i can and will say that the above rational has no bearing on their timing.
Fact is GM Holden WERE DESPERATE to launch an updated SII facelift end of 2008 first q of 09, but were held back due to their financial position and basically stopped by GM Detroit. As it turned out, the forecast for revision was looking likely to be around 2012, by which time of course Commodore would be irrelevant in its orig VE form, hence the earlier launch.

Its design merits however are not real forward thinking, and has taken a conservative approach backwards resembling what others perceive as Fords B series highlights.
This wouldnt be a 1st time though, look how Holden bagged AU - only to then try replicate its design elements in VY-VZ.

enuff said..............

If I'm not mistaken from VT2 through to VE didn't Holden update the Commodore's exterior every 12 months without fail? The changes were particularly apparent VY1 through to VZ2 (bumpers, lights, wheels, bonnets, guards galore!)

The fact that VE hasn't changed visually in the last 4 years (bar colors) is a great cause for concern. Hearing your insider info validates what I was thinking:

GM/Holden are extremely cash strapped
Commodore is no safer than the Falcon and tough decisions will soon have to be made re: its future
Fomoco were very wise forcing Ford AU to engineer the FG on a limited budget, and to not pursue exports

And re: Holden replicating AU design elements on the VY-Z: the whole rear end is just a sharper, more upright interpretation of the AU's rear (the inner side of the tail lights are exposed, the crease on the bootlid etc!)