4 young teens lost their lives last night because the driver was showing off

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so please explain, at what age exactly do you suddenly accuire this world road experience??

With attitudes like you present it could be some time!

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so please explain, at what age exactly do you suddenly accuire this world road experience??

When you read my above post and don't feel the need to ask that question.

Or perhaps when you get your open licence (also stated above).

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so please explain, at what age exactly do you suddenly accuire this world road experience??

When you respect the road. And that comes after a healthy dose of fear, and the realization that NOONE is safe on the roads at the best of times, let alone when performing circus stunts in a vehicle.

Donuts and burnouts are for the pad at the summernats, drag racing is for the drag strip, drifting is for the track, and being an idiot is for parliament.

When you work out how to know what another driver is going to do on the road long before he knows it himself.

And once you are at this point guess what? Theres still more to learn.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

With attitudes like you present it could be some time!

no attitude intended at all, i just find on these forums people get judged due to their age, and not think how much actual experience some younger people might have, alot of you seem to think that way. thats all

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

I would support a ban on High output cars for L and P plate drivers. (You don't have the real world road experience guys and gals, despite whatever you think.)

We already have something like that here in Victoria. 2 points regarding it:

1. Its not policed very well, the number of P plates I see on cars I KNOW are above the power to weight limit is incredible.
2. It hasn't made any real difference to the road toll here, we still have people killing themselves and others, or seriously wounding themselves in "High powered cars" that they technically shouldn't have been driving.

For reference:

Originally Posted by VicRoads

P Drivers & High Powered Vehicles

Probationary driver licence holders must not drive high powered vehicles. The penalties for driving a high powered motor vehicle include a heavy fine and may result in licence suspension.

What’s a high powered car?
A high powered vehicle is any vehicle with a power to weight ratio over 125 kw per tonne, or with an engine capacity to weight ratio over 3.5 litres per tonne. This includes any make of car.

Check if your car is high powered
If you are a probationary licence holder, it is your responsibility to make sure that any vehicle you drive is not a high powered motor vehicle. You can:

* check the Restricted Vehicles Guide (PDF 196KB) – however this list is not exhaustive
* check with the manufacturer to get engine power and vehicle weight information
* calculate the capacity to weight ratio


If your car is modified, you may also need to obtain an engineer's certificate and do your own calculations. You are also required to notify VicRoads of any significant modification. Penalties for not doing so are severe.

If in doubt contact VicRoads on 13 11 71.

Calculating the capacity to weight ratio

* Capacity to weight ratio is the capacity in litres divided by the weight in tonnes
* Power to weight ratio is the power in kw divided by the weight in tonnes.


In doing calculations, weight is specified in tonnes (1000kg = 1 tonne); capacity is specified in litres (1000ml = 1 litre); power is specified in kilowatts (kw) and is measured at the engine flywheel.

The weight of a vehicle is the unladen mass specified by the manufacturer for the stock-standard vehicle (without options).

For example, a V8 vehicle weighs 1382kg with a power rating of 185kw. Therefore, the power to weight ratio is: 185/1382 x 1000 = 130kw per tonne. This vehicle would therefore be considered a high powered vehicle.

More information

* Restricted Vehicles Guide (PDF 196KB)
* Contact VicRoads on 13 11 71 (Monday to Saturday - 8:30am-5:00pm)

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

When you respect the road. And that comes after a healthy dose of fear, and the realization that NOONE is safe on the roads at the best of times, let alone when performing circus stunts in a vehicle.

Donuts and burnouts are for the pad at the summernats, drag racing is for the drag strip, drifting is for the track, and being an idiot is for parliament.

When you work out how to know what another driver is going to do on the road long before he knows it himself.

And once you are at this point guess what? Theres still more to learn.

not to be rude but is there anything else, what you stated, to me would be plain common sence, damn right i still got alot to learn, no matter how long you've been driving you still learn stuff

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

Or perhaps when you get your open licence (also stated above).

your kidding right....??

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

no attitude intended at all, i just find on these forums people get judged due to their age, and not think how much actual experience some younger people might have, alot of you seem to think that way. thats all

How much actual experience do you have? 12 months?

You confuse road skills with car craft, and just simple intelligence. The I know it all attitude betrays, you never stop learning (if you want to learn).
We have had this argument in other threads and you've not comprehended either time.

Younger drivers have proved conclusively that as a group they are at massive risk of serious accident. And within that group the highest risk group are the young males that think they know it all?

Don't like the generalisations? Tough! Get used to it, we all cope legislation applied with a wide broom, at all ages, fact life.

The good drivers in your age bracket are those that recognise the risks and drive within their abilities, not the ones that feel they have skill they clearly have not had the time to learn!

Know some older driver that are a menace, so what! They don't have majority representation in their age bracket.

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by Heeno

no attitude intended at all, i just find on these forums people get judged due to their age, and not think how much actual experience some younger people might have, alot of you seem to think that way. thats all

I'm not judging by age, that was my point. I'm judging on genuine road experience.

Here's my experience (to prove i'm not "ageist")

I learnt to drive when i was 8 years old, on my parents and uncle's farms. I've been driving ever since. I got my learners at when i was 16.5, and my Provisionals at 17. I'm 25 now. Despite having over 8 years of "driveing experience" before i got my L's, I had no "road experience" whatsoever. My first car was a lowly 2.6L magna, which was hardly able to exceed the speed limit anyway (a good thing).

Originally Posted by Heeno

your kidding right....??

Yes i'm kidding, you can see that with all the LOLs, ROFLs and smilies i put into my post.

The rule is good enough for motorbikes, why not for cars?

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

We already have something like that here in Victoria. 2 points regarding it:

1. Its not policed very well, the number of P plates I see on cars I KNOW are above the power to weight limit is incredible.
2. It hasn't made any real difference to the road toll here, we still have people killing themselves and others, or seriously wounding themselves in "High powered cars" that they technically shouldn't have been driving.

For reference:

You can't stop people from breaking laws. It sounds like a good rule though.

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

You can't stop people from breaking laws. It sounds like a good rule though.

It has the potential to be if it was enforced, but what is the point if it's not enforced?

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

How much actual experience do you have? 12 months?

10 years lol, the first 2 years were on farm, then 5.5 on road then got my licence at 16.5 and p's at 17 and im now 19. and no im not talking about a road only used by me either.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

10 years lol, the first 2 years were on farm, then 5.5 on road then got my licence at 16.5 and p's at 17 and im now 19. and no im not talking about a road only used by me either.

Illegally running mummy's Hillman Imp on public roads does not develop road skills! You don't have a clue, do you? And you have the country boy invincibility that tells me shares in monumental masonry may not be a bad bet.
Farm kids have as a rule the best car control skills and some of the highest per-capita representations in the P-plate fatality statistics.

Work it out! It may just save your neck ! Or those of someone else!

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

How much actual experience do you have? 12 months?

You confuse road skills with car craft, and just simple intelligence. The I know it all attitude betrays, you never stop learning (if you want to learn).
We have had this argument in other threads and you've not comprehended either time.

no you just don't believe any p plater has the skill and knowledge to be an advanced driver.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Younger drivers have proved conclusively that as a group they are at massive risk of serious accident. And within that group the highest risk group are the young males that think they know it all?

yes true, but remember not all!

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

The good drivers in your age bracket are those that recognise the risks and drive within their abilities, not the ones that feel they have skill they clearly have not had the time to learn!.

for most yes, but once again thats not everyone, btw i practice everyday(most weeks)

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Know some older driver that are a menace, so what! They don't have majority representation in their age bracket.

i know a few as well, and there the ones that think no one is better and when someone less skilled or younger say's they have any form of skill when driving, get an arguement not worth participating

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

When you respect the road. And that comes after a healthy dose of fear, and the realization that NOONE is safe on the roads at the best of times, let alone when performing circus stunts in a vehicle.

Donuts and burnouts are for the pad at the summernats, drag racing is for the drag strip, drifting is for the track, and being an idiot is for parliament.

When you work out how to know what another driver is going to do on the road long before he knows it himself.

And once you are at this point guess what? Theres still more to learn.

Amen there.

As far as I'm concerned, this is how I approach the road everyday.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so please explain, at what age exactly do you suddenly accuire this world road experience??

Whilst I see where you are coming from Heeno - i dont know if that's the best wording to throw into what has so far been a constructive discussion...

I might suggest that what sundrifter put forward (which sounds pretty much like the victorian system? and now NSW?) is an effort to come up with a measure than can be applied across the board.

I mean, how long is a piece of string?

By defining an age or category of licence before allowing certain vehicle restrictions to be lifted you create an equal measure. Anything else becomes entirely subjective - hell, i could drink like a fish when i was 16 but i still had to wait until i was 18 before i could go into a pub and do it. 18 is just where the line has been drawn in the sand - but it applies to everyone, justly or not.

Yes, there will always be people who have years of experience prior to getting their P's (and will probably get screwed over by such a system) but you simply cant cater for each and every individual. I believe the technical term is tough t!tties.

Aside from that general point, i dont see the need to take such suggestions personally. There is little chance such proposals would be applied retrospectively - no one is going to stop you from driving your car, even if the legislation were passed tomorrow.

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

Forget age, forget banning people from having passangers or driving at night. It may help, but it would be a cure worse then the disease.

I think the motorcycle rules should be applied to cars. When you get your learner and provisional licence, you have to have a restricted (type) bike (in qld 250cc or smaller), when you get your open licence, your welcome to have whatever you like.

Sure, you can still get fast fours, but its surely going to decrease the risk substantially.

I would support a ban on High output cars for L and P plate drivers. (You don't have the real world road experience guys and gals, despite whatever you think.)

<edit>Yes I owned a motorcycle, a 250cc and then a 600cc. If i had of had the 600 first, i probably wouldn't be here.

Your right, they should make a P plate power rule based on the motorbike power rule. Looking at the power to weight ratios of some 250cc bikes, to make it similer they should implement a 360kw/ per 1000kg rule.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Illegally running mummy's Hillman Imp on public roads does not develop road skills! You don't have a clue, do you? And you have the country boy invincibility that tells me shares in monumental masonry may not be a bad bet.
Farm kids have as a rule the best car control skills and some of the highest per-capita representations in the P-plate fatality statistics.

Work it out! It may just save your neck ! Or those of someone else!

yea illegally so what's your point, and how does being taught not develope road skills??
and i never said i was invincible, your just presuming that, im only saying not EVERY p plater is a stupid hoon.
ffs city drivers are no where near as safe as country people, i have been driving in city traffic day in and day out for the last 2 years and it's bloody amazing how many of these people obtained a licence.

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by Heeno

10 years lol, the first 2 years were on farm, then 5.5 on road then got my licence at 16.5 and p's at 17 and im now 19. and no im not talking about a road only used by me either.

I wouldn't sprook on about breaking the law, were i trying to argue against restrictions. *If people didn't break road laws, we wouldn't need to restrict cars anyway!

Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

It has the potential to be if it was enforced, but what is the point if it's not enforced?

So enforce the law then! The point is; its a good law. Note the above sentence*.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Heeno

not to be rude but is there anything else, what you stated, to me would be plain common sence, damn right i still got alot to learn, no matter how long you've been driving you still learn stuff

Common sense isnt all that common mate.

And secondly to put "experience" into context lets delve into my life a tad.

Ive been driving since 16, im now about 28. In 12 years of "On the road" experience, driving in Australia, in the US and Canada, I have driven in snow, black ice(With no tyre chains) in tornado weather, in hurricane weather, in a blizzard, at night in all the above conditions, in the day, in the dusk dawn twilight what have you, through mud, down highways, freeways, byways, lanes, streets, alleys, culdesacs, avenues, boulevards, and down dirt tracks and god knows what else.

And guess what, I still make mistakes on the road. Because im a human, and humans make mistakes. No amount of experience makes you a perfect driver, but experience will teach you that you ARENT INVINCIBLE. Experience will give you skills no doubt, but what it also teaches you is what to do WHEN YOU SCREW UP. And you will, and I will, and Red will, and Sundeep will, and Selektas Parents did.

Experience erodes the god of the road mentality and replaces it with the reality of errors, by yourself and others. And once its discovered that you arent God, all of a sudden the will to drive like Dale Earnhardt dissolves to be replaced with "I dont want to dent my car, the bank owns more of it then I do."

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

So enforce the law then! The point is; its a good law. Note the above sentence*.

How is a law that has almost no facts supporting it a "good law"?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

for most yes, but once again thats not everyone, btw i practice everyday(most weeks)

What exactly are you practicing? And id it involves a towel, some lube and a magazine, don't answer.

How to avoid an oncoming drunk while driving at 11/10's?

How to evade the mad-woman in the people mover veering into your lane as she is shouting at the kids whilst driving at 11/10's?

How to encounter that half filled pot-hole unsignposted on a damp night whilst driving at 11/10's?

There's a few you could add to your practice regime immediately.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

What exeactly are you practicing? And id it involves a towel, some lube and a magazine, dont answer.

How to avoid an oncoming drunk while driving at 11/10's?

How to evage the mad-woman in the people mover veering into your lane as she is shouting at the kids whilst driving at 11/10's?

How to encouter that half filled pot-hole unsignposted on a damp night whilst driving at 11/10's?

There's a few you could add to your practice regime immediately.

like i said befor its a useless arguement

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by Heeno

yea illegally so what's your point, and how does being taught not develope road skills??
and i never said i was invincible, your just presuming that, im only saying not EVERY p plater is a stupid hoon.
ffs city drivers are no where near as safe as country people, i have been driving in city traffic day in and day out for the last 2 years and it's bloody amazing how many of these people obtained a licence.

Your arguement is completely invalid anyway Heeno.

Ignoring the fact that you've previously broken road laws for a number of years, can you honestly expect the average person to have enough real "road experience" for some restriction rules to not save lives?

I wont presume that your a hoon, or that you think your invincible, but your arguement would justify the other aforementioned descriptor.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

What exactly are you practicing? And id it involves a towel, some lube and a magazine, don't answer.

How to avoid an oncoming drunk while driving at 11/10's?

How to evade the mad-woman in the people mover veering into your lane as she is shouting at the kids whilst driving at 11/10's?

How to encounter that half filled pot-hole unsignposted on a damp night whilst driving at 11/10's?

There's a few you could add to your practice regime immediately.

But a few posts ago you were saying it wasn't car controll skills they needed...

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

like i said befor its a useless arguement

I cant hear you, I'm chisseling out some text in a stone. Two "E"'s in Heeno right?

[Heeno]

SOURBASTARD..

this is starting to get out of hand, i am not saying im invincible nor do i think that way, yes i already have had my 'big one' and yes i went past my limits and learnt from it. yes i have driven in those conditions except for the snow, ice and tornado......arghh forget it, i give up

[SunDrifter]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

How is a law that has almost no facts supporting it a "good law"?

How is it not a good law? If you average "teen hoon" (note, i'm now talking about hoons and not P platers) isn't able to reach 150kph and slam into a powerpole (or your car, or your girlfriend walking her dog), because his car is too slow to bother drag racing, how is that NOT good?

Answer these questions too.

How can the average person have enough real "road experience" for some restriction rules to not save lives?

Restriction rules are good enough for motorbikes, why not for cars?

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Heeno

SOURBASTARD..

this is starting to get out of hand, i am not saying im invincible nor do i think that way, yes i already have had my 'big one' and yes i went past my limits and learnt from it. yes i have driven in those conditions except for the snow, ice and tornado......arghh forget it, i give up

Fair enough mate, I wasnt talking specifically about you anyway, but you are one driver. Can you vouch for every other P Plater in your state that their abilities are the same as yours? Policy is built for the majority of a population target, not single cases. Can you honestly say the majority of P platers do not require limitations and that all of their skills developed from our joke of a licensing system are of a high quality? Can you vouch that they are all mentally developed enough to even drive(Its a medical fact that our brains continue to grow and mature into our twenties).

As I said, policy is made for the bulk of a targeted population, if you fall into a minority, thems the brakes im afraid.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

Your arguement is completely invalid anyway Heeno.

Ignoring the fact that you've previously broken road laws for a number of years, can you honestly expect the average person to have enough real "road experience" for some restriction rules to not save lives?.

my parents did it because they didn't want me to become another statistic, they thought if i learnt the dangers and skills of driving at an early age, i would have a better chance surviving on the road then if i learn't for 6 months on L's and going straight out. now what is wrong with that? the way i see it they did me a huge favour.