I am throwing down the gauntlet!!!

[Mechan1k]

If the VCT system can be utilised well enough that it does give major improvements ... it will help ... but for now ... I see it as more of a hinderance.

From what I ahve heard the Helix spacers have more of a detrimental effect on the I6 as well ... works well for the V8 .. buit not the 6.

[Racecraft]

yea perhaps but more parts equal more dollars ... the more dollars you throw at the problem you might as well just get an off the shelf forced induction set-up..
6psi will see you sail into the 13's
Do the sums
Converter $600
Trans Cooler $100
Edit $1200
Cam/ Vernier Wheel $400
Diff $1200
Tailshaft (if you go 3.7++) $250
Extractors $400
Airbox/CAI/Filter $200

No headwork. no balancing/blueprinting... and you have spent over $4000 with no guarantees of a 13 second 1/4. And lets be honest, 13's are not that fast really.. It is fast in our small circle of i6 Ford lovers but at the track that doesn't mean much.. LS1, Boss, XR6T's and a wad of old school muscle and new flashy imports are running 13's with rookie drivers and /or problems

In saying that though 4 grand to knock 2 seconds off stock times is good value, but it is then you hit the wall and every tenth starts to cost you exponentially

The down side of forced induction is legalities in some states, but IMHO if you want a fast streeter based on the Ford 6 you don't really have much choice

[Mechan1k]

That's the thing ... and I know that there's no way in hell I'll get the LPG ute going quick via N/A means.

Stop tempting with this S/C idea ... cos I know it's ideal on gas too ... and all i am after is massive amounts of bottom-end torque too.

I really should start saving more money.

[T_Terror]

I dont think anyones custom mapped the ECU yet so theres still a bit of power left there. I remember seeing somewhere that someone used to be able to tune EECV and EECIV in some magazine but never heard much about it.

Major N/A mod that hasnt really been done properly yet is independant throttle bodies. Whack them on and a decent computer- no piggyback crap, and you would have over 200 easily, that is combined with the existing bolt ons that most poeple have. Although if youre really going to all that trouble then surely you'd go to a cam and loose "unopened" status. Really, who cares. The LS1 guys changed the rules anyway so its arbitrary anyhow.

I dont think anyones run with drag radials yet either, or 90/10 shockers so id say that mid 13 isnt so far off. None of those things really destroy drivability so much either...

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

yea perhaps but more parts equal more dollars ... the more dollars you throw at the problem you might as well just get an off the shelf forced induction set-up..
6psi will see you sail into the 13's
Do the sums
Converter $600
Trans Cooler $100
Edit $1200
Cam/ Vernier Wheel $400
Diff $1200
Tailshaft (if you go 3.7++) $250
Extractors $400
Airbox/CAI/Filter $200

No headwork. no balancing/blueprinting... and you have spent over $4000 with no guarantees of a 13 second 1/4. And lets be honest, 13's are not that fast really.. It is fast in our small circle of i6 Ford lovers but at the track that doesn't mean much.. LS1, Boss, XR6T's and a wad of old school muscle and new flashy imports are running 13's with rookie drivers and /or problems

In saying that though 4 grand to knock 2 seconds off stock times is good value, but it is then you hit the wall and every tenth starts to cost you exponentially

The down side of forced induction is legalities in some states, but IMHO if you want a fast streeter based on the Ford 6 you don't really have much choice

Damm rta.. Only 2 more years on my p's

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by T_Terror

I dont think anyones custom mapped the ECU yet

We have been "custom mapping" the AU ECU for over 12 months now with the CAPA Flash Tuner, and for years before that with the Chiptorque J3 chip...catch up dude ;)

Individual throttle bodies has been done as well. I think the main problem there is you lose all the intake runner length, so the torque curve is shifted too high for the rev range of the engine. Did they ever run this thing at the track?

Drag radials have been done as well, by Stav at least.

I dont know anyone running 90/10 shocks though.

Bolt on's wont do it IMO. Some good cylinder head, intake, and camshaft development is what is needed. None of this $500 "i'll-have-a-go-at-porting" type stuff...

[skap]

get a piggyback ECU + 100shot nitrous, trick up the auto & 2x street slicks

[Casper]

Originally Posted by skap

get a piggyback ECU + 100shot nitrous, trick up the auto & 2x street slicks

Nitrous is not NA.

[Stav]

Originally Posted by Tri Power 289

Interesting debate, all this opened vs unopened but I personally believe that it will be a long time before an UNOPENED N/A AU 6 runs a 13 but an OPENED 13 is just around the corner - and their's no reason why the car can't still be perfectly streetable.

I have said many times before, my car does 500ks a week and has run 14.3 in Exactly the same trim as I drive it every day. My wife can't tell any difference in driving the car now from when it was a 16 sec stocker.
Driving the car sedately, you wouldnt even know it wasnt stock apart from the occasional firm shift.
The key is in the drivetrain, but even going from 3.9s to 4.11s isn't going to get me into the 13s. I know this is where a cam at minimum will have to come into play and possibly some head work.
Thats why my Avatar says "at the crossroads" because I'm not sure which way to go next.

As for the knockers who's response to this whole hot 6 debate is "Buy a V8", lots of us have "been there, done that", for others it's "make the best of what you've got" and for some its about bragging rights.

All I say is "good luck to whoever does it first!" :Reverend:

I am back and read most of the posts since. Tripower is on the money here. A quick na aspirated car doesnt have to idle like a pig or lose drivability.My car pulled a 14.7 and unless you put the boot in it is like a normal ford six. As for unopened or opened..I cant care less. What I like is to see quick au fords opened or unopened.At the end of the day I am pulling away with decent takeoff and streetability. At the moment I had a great holiday but came home with cab fare..so my attempt will have to wait but not for too long.

[Stevo]

Originally Posted by useless

At the moment I had a great holiday but came home with cab fare..so my attempt will have to wait but not for too long.

Do you mean someone mistook your wagon for a taxi ? :thebirds:

Maybe have a look over at the eseries section, i know at least someone has run a 13' (oed666) i think. Perhaps have a talk to him.

[OED666]

there is 4 of us now. all manuals though.

i have had a pm or 2 from useless. I have shared my cam details... hopefully this wagon will finally raise the bar for autos

[Futura01]

more au 6's in the 13's or low 14's the better

[Stav]

Originally Posted by Futura01

more au 6's in the 13's or low 14's the better

Its my target .Dont want to say that I will do it for sure..but I am pretty much gonna try!! Whats that saying I have.."if you try to be a hero you can end up being a zero". So I want to avoid that and just give it my best shot.
I have a few cams on the floor but the dev 4 tuned right is no slouch.I just need more mid to top end power.My search now is to see why these cars top out so early and do not produce a healthy 240 rwhp.The accepted rule of thumb is that you can safely get 0.8 to 1 horsepower per cubic inch of capacity.We are looking at 240 to 250 rwhp or around 182 -186 rwkws.I do know that most of us are sitting around 120 to 145 rwkws.Something is wrong..something is very restrictive.I know it is not the throttle body.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by useless

Its my target .Dont want to say that I will do it for sure..but I am pretty much gonna try!! Whats that saying I have.."if you try to be a hero you can end up being a zero". So I want to avoid that and just give it my best shot.
I have a few cams on the floor but the dev 4 tuned right is no slouch.I just need more mid to top end power.My search now is to see why these cars top out so early and do not produce a healthy 240 rwhp.The accepted rule of thumb is that you can safely get 0.8 to 1 horsepower per cubic inch of capacity.We are looking at 240 to 250 rwhp or around 182 -186 rwkws.I do know that most of us are sitting around 120 to 145 rwkws.Something is wrong..something is very restrictive.I know it is not the throttle body.

The old rule of thumb "1 horsepower per cubic inch" is usually measured at the flywheel.

Once the head is ported & shaved, exhaust is flowing, once the cam, stall and diff ratio is set, once injectors and ECU are done, you are only left with a few factors left. Some can be addressed such as intake manifold and TB size, but you cant beat things like cubic capcity and the stroke, which in the end will be what will hold back larger numbers in NA form.

[Futura01]

well i think there is a little holden gremlin running around putting bannana's in our exhaust's causing restrictions ???? ;-)

[Stav]

True Mr sour... But then the obsession just grabs a hold and the belief that it can be done and it seems that somehow we can defy logic .Maybe I can pull it off maybe it wont happen but I believe it can be done.

I have been in a six 250 2v ford xa many years ago and I have yet to see that type of acceleration since. I feel a void that can only be filled with that type of raw animal grunt.All this technology and I am still not there.The wagon feels quick but not the sensation I am after. Wont be long though..

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

The old rule of thumb "1 horsepower per cubic inch" is usually measured at the flywheel.

Once the head is ported & shaved, exhaust is flowing, once the cam, stall and diff ratio is set, once injectors and ECU are done, you are only left with a few factors left. Some can be addressed such as intake manifold and TB size, but you cant beat things like cubic capcity and the stroke, which in the end will be what will hold back larger numbers in NA form.

On that basis, the Nissan shouldn't be able to produce 221KW(287bhp), as it only 215 cubes. I can tell you that it is not a highly strung motor and there are other motors that produce much higher specific power per litre(think M3, s2000 etc).
Its all just a matter of time before someone unlocks the potential of the I6 and i'm hoping useless finds the key to it.

[poolkeeper]

Oversized exhaust valves, would they do anything?

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by hot xr6

On that basis, the Nissan shouldn't be able to produce 221KW(287bhp), as it only 215 cubes. I can tell you that it is not a highly strung motor and there are other motors that produce much higher specific power per litre(think M3, s2000 etc).
Its all just a matter of time before someone unlocks the potential of the I6 and i'm hoping useless finds the key to it.

I think you missed the point.

1 horsepower per cubic inch is the old ideal measurement of horsepower vs driveability. its not a limitation. never was.

Once all other factors are accounted for, all that is left is stroke and cubes. There are no secrets. Its an air pump. You perfect the dynamics until you hit the wall, and every motor has a wall. We get over these walls by changing the rules IE forced induction, nitrous, stroking etc.

[Sapper]

Hmm, i suppose i did.

However, I think my example still addreses a valid point. The 350z is known for its mid range torque and ordinary top end. I think the bar you mention can be moved now to something higher.

I like to use the VQ35DE engine as a benchmark because it only revs to 6500, produces more than 350Nm torque and has character somewhat similar to the falcon inline sixes. Yes, its a newer engine and has an extra 3 camshafts but look at how the single cam Ls1 kept up with the quad cam boss. Another thing to note is that there are many 600hp NA VQ30DE's running around and some of them are streetable. Remember today when there are hundreds of NA SOHC I6's running 13's.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by hot xr6

Hmm, i suppose i did.

However, I think my example still addreses a valid point. The 350z is known for its mid range torque and ordinary top end. I think the bar you mention can be moved now to something higher.

I like to use the VQ35DE engine as a benchmark because it only revs to 6500, produces more than 350Nm torque and has character somewhat similar to the falcon inline sixes. Yes, its a newer engine and has an extra 3 camshafts but look at how the single cam Ls1 kept up with the quad cam boss. Another thing to note is that there are many 600hp NA VQ30DE's running around and some of them are streetable. Remember today when there are hundreds of NA SOHC I6's running 13's.

So you are comparing a V6 with a multi valve head design, and a shorter stroke(81.4mm) to an inline 6 with a single cam and a normal valve head design with a longer power robbing stroke(99.3mm).

Why.

Benchmarks are pointless. The engine will only pull what the parts and design will allow. Comparing it to some other engine wont make the other engine magically produce more power unless the parts are interchangable, which they arent.

Quantify Character? Smell? Ambience? Texture? Taste?

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by hot xr6

Another thing to note is that there are many 600hp NA VQ30DE's running around and some of them are streetable.

600hp from naturally aspirated production 3.0L V6 is obscene....do you have any links to more info?

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

So you are comparing a V6 with a multi valve head design, and a shorter stroke(81.4mm) to an inline 6 with a single cam and a normal valve head design with a longer power robbing stroke(99.3mm).

Why.

Benchmarks are pointless. The engine will only pull what the parts and design will allow. Comparing it to some other engine wont make the other engine magically produce more power unless the parts are interchangable, which they arent.

Quantify Character? Smell? Ambience? Texture? Taste?

If you want to know why i used that comparison, it is because I still scratch my head as to how the ls1 has been able to keep the boss honest even though the boss is technically a far superior engine, in all the ways you compare the VQ35DE to the SOHC 4.0 I6.

And besides, I hate the thought that the 13 second ECOTEC powered ute I drove 2 years ago is quicker than anything an NA AU has produced.

But maybe i should redefine my point. I personally think that the measure of 1 horsepower per cubic inch for driveability is a bit old. I'm not so much trying to compare the two engines but give it as an example of how i think that there is the knowledge and technology out there to move well beyond the old barriers in engine tuning.

As for the 600bhp V6, I spotted it one of my mate's dvds. It was in a 300zx and no, it would not be legal on new south wales streets due to our RTA. Not bad for a car running on 101RON, absolutely blew me away.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by OED666

its easy to drive, not a real pig at all. who in brisbane wants to have a drive of my car... (i might see a few hands now. :P)

im pretty sure i was reading a thread a while ago, an it said(by the guy who put your au xr engine in) that it did run like a pig. but that may have been out of context. But on a similair note and to be fair i have seen your car driven by someone else and in less than 100m it stalled 3times. Aswell as leaving a rather rich exhuast trail down the road. Now thats what i would expect from a car doing high 13secs

I think its fair to say a 13sec 4.0 auto will make the front page, cant wait...if its not me :

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by xr8ute

600hp from naturally aspirated production 3.0L V6 is obscene....do you have any links to more info?

there was a mag not to long ago that feteared a vn they were doing up for the strip an i think they spent over 12000 just to get it in the low 14s...an that didnt include all the many many dyno tune runs.

oh yeah it was an auto too...

[Futura01]

13 sec au N/A falcons are not far away !!!

[xr8ute]

Originally Posted by hot xr6

I still scratch my head as to how the ls1 has been able to keep the boss honest even though the boss is technically a far superior engine....

<snip>

...I hate the thought that the 13 second ECOTEC powered ute I drove 2 years ago is quicker than anything an NA AU has produced.

What makes you think the BOSS is "far superior" than the LS1...? DOHC on its own is not superior technology.

The LS1 has very good heads (for production car), and well designed valvetrain....stacks of development going into these all over the world too.

The BOSS is a uniquely Australian motor. What Chris has done with it is exceptional, and is keeping many LSx's "honest"...but how many others are really developing the BOSS with similar success? I can think of one other..i.e. G&D

Tell me more about this "13 second ECOTEC powered ute"...thats a pretty big claim.

[Sapper]

Originally Posted by xr8ute

What makes you think the BOSS is "far superior" than the LS1...? DOHC on its own is not superior technology.

The LS1 has very good heads (for production car), and well designed valvetrain....stacks of development going into these all over the world too.

The BOSS is a uniquely Australian motor. What Chris has done with it is exceptional, and is keeping many LSx's "honest"...but how many others are really developing the BOSS with similar success? I can think of one other..i.e. G&D

Tell me more about this "13 second ECOTEC powered ute"...thats a pretty big claim.

Just going with the obvious/cliched reasoning. I'm happy to be proven wrong. But the comparison fit my argument well in an earlier post.

The 13.0sec ECOTEC ute was a VU storm ute with the engine tuned by henesee racing. It has a 3.8L ECOTEC (Buick) pushrod V6, stroked to 4.2L with increased compression ratio(10.9 from memory), cam, intake and exhaust, new heads and forged internals. It was claimed to be 400bhp (at flywheel). My mate who owned it had 2 maps available for it. One was a 5500rpm rev limit and one with a 7200rpm limit. Amazingly, when i drove it, it drove happily without a hi-stall and with 1st gear running out to 105 klicks. I didn't believe my mate's claims until i got behind the wheel.
Unfortunately, the next owner wrapped it around a telegraph pole at 200km/h. Some of you Sydney northsiders will remember the accident. It was in St Ives on Mona Vale road. White holden ute with wreckage over 400m.

[Sourbastard]

im gonna say it again, until it sinks in.

You CANNOT just compare two different engines that happen to have the same number of cylinders or similar displacement, and assume you can reach similar power figures with both engines.

A nissan V6 is not a 4.0
An Ecotec V6 is not a 4.0
A LS1 is not a 5.4 Boss

Each have their own flaws and strengths in design, some of which cannot be overcome or improved upon, and you can only compare apples with apples. Just because an LS1 can make XXXHP or XXXlbs/tq does not mean the Boss can necessarily match it, or vica versa.

[Sapper]

Whatever.....

Getting back on topic. Aftermarket support for the I6 is increasing which is a great thing. I can't wait to see the results of useless's head work, G&D's rumoured development of a VCT cam and everyone else's work on thier NA I6's.