Unions urge Toyota workers to reject reforms

[GCRXR6]

Originally Posted by MAD;495****

Oh come on... not everything that happens in this world is a political engineering process.
Culturally, the majority of 457's probably feel disgusted to earn the amount we are paid for the jobs they are doing.

WTF.... You really are mad .... "Disgusted to earn the amount we are paid...? Get real.

[gtfpv]

i know i said i wouldnt post further . but cant help laughing . i'm sure some of these ANTI UNION people are just pulling our legs .
no one can be as idiotic as some of these people claim to be .
they hate thier own working conditions and blame unions . LOL

Some of these people would turn thier own mums life support off to save a buck for the country . lol . the hide of being entitled to life saving treatment . LOL .

THERES PLENTY OF EM OUT THERE THOUGH , I'M BEGINNING TO THINK IT'S SOME SORT OF GENETIC MENTAL FLAW ,

[b0son]

Originally Posted by fte50

Part of the restructuring of wages included the recognition of competencies & skills. It is up to you to better yourself and increase your skills etc or remain stagnant.

Surely they only need X workers to have a particular competency? Or do they get automatically upgraded in pay when they have a skillset regardless of whether they use it?

*Process workers have at least 4 increment levels of pay depending on skills/competencies

incompetencies? go to LS1... some of the problems on the VF are embarrassing. you'd swear the assembly line was manned by apprentices and quality control were off on yet another training day.... I know, new model teething problems, but still...

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Maybe because the Korean **** box generally has a better warrenty, and lasts just as long if not longer than the Aussie designed/built car.

The whole 'designed for Aussie conditions' is the biggest crock going round...
If they're designed for Aussie conditions how come it seems every other second hand falcon has saggy roof linings, fg's with barely adequate aircon, paint that looks twenty years old on a 5-6 yr old car, crappy diff bushes since 2002, transmission coolers that been failing since Noah floated the ark, rust in cars only a few years old, interior plastics that warp and distort in the sun/heat, seat foams that collapse under the weight of an 'average' Aussie...
And then there's commodore.... And territory.

Next time you driving round count how many of those dodgy early 90s Hyundai excels are still on the road... Built to a price like no other car, yet they're still out there in their thousands.

Have to agree with all this, Australias produced some good cars but when people act like Aussie built cars last 100 years and foreign cars fall apart after 1 its just silly. Aussie cars are supposedly built for the conditions but develop rattles after a couple of years, bushes wear out like crazy, etc. not built that well really for the conditions. Foreign cars hold up just as well, if not better.

[fte50]

Boson, Skill sets are used as workers are constantly rotated inorder to meet the requirements of and provide the efficiencies for the company. Industrial maint. trades in constantly changing high tech industries have greater demands placed on them than say 20yrs ago, just as a mechanic has evolved from the days of leaf springs & carby.

As for the incompetencies I can only assume no one is infact perfect, however if you believe you are, think you may be of value and have people skills you may qualify for a leadership type role - bit of heads up though, majority of bosses belong to a union http://www.professionalsaustralia.org.au/

[JG34JA]

Well worth a read: "Australian disease will be one for the Text Books" at Macro Business:

http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2013...he-text-books/

Admire the passion of many of you (with a different view) but we are getting (productively) pasted in the global market at present. It seems it is a "perfect storm" - a combination of factors taking what should be monopoly businesses and eradicating them. From my viewpoint, it's the ability to produce things here that will be most missed:



Australian disease will be one for the text books
Posted by Houses and Holes in Australian Economy, Featured Article at 9:01am on December 10, 2013

While the nation continues to debate whether we should let this business go or bail out that business, the real issue continues to be ignored. Indeed it is so far off the radar that cheap shot commentators like Michael Pascoe can make wise cracks about it while the economy burns.

But it’s not funny. It’s not even a little bit amusing. Australians are being slaughtered by emerging markets; gutted by the Japanese; truncated by the Americans and butchered by the Europeans.

I am talking about the global currency war that we are comprehensively losing while having our backs turned.

Qantas, Graincorp, Holden, Electrolux. These are all iconic Australian businesses that have absolutely no reason to fail. Two are virtual monopolies that should be making money on a conveyor belt. The third and fourth are high tech industries that should be tailor made for a smart, developed economy.

But instead all four are failing because they can’t compete with leaner and meaner foreign operations.

Qantas can’t get cheap enough finance and has no access to cheap fuel the way Middle Eastern airlines do. Graincorp is saddled with out-dated infrastructure and can’t seem to raise the capital to renovate itself despite a supposed “dining boom”. Detroit has confessed that Holden is being pulled out owing to a structurally higher dollar and labour costs. Electrolux is the same.

Metals refining, surely an area in which we should have a distinct advantage, is also failing, with last week’s Gove refinery the latest casualty. Processed food exports haven’t grown since 2005 while raw agricultural foodstuffs have jumped. We’ve already lost half of our petrol refining capacity. The Productivity Commission nails all three for dragging down productivity growth owing to high wages, low investment and idle capacity (read the dollar):

As these various businesses pack up their kits, our manufacturing sector is headed for an unbelievable 5% of GDP, by far the lowest in the OECD (making Luxembourg look like an industrial powerhouse) and approaching or past a point at which the inability to produce material for ourselves is also a strategic risk.

Most disconcerting of all is that this is transpiring as we head into a great reckoning in the wider economy. The mining boom is ending, its fabulous capital wave is subsiding, its huge ramp up in employment is ebbing, and over the next three years it will recede as fast as any business investment correction in the last one hundred years. We’ve plenty more gas but are too expensive to extract it. Perth’s Magnolia LNG is headed to Louisiana to produce gas there instead.

The plan to build more unproductive houses to fill the void is a classic kick of the can, adding to capex briefly but adding nothing to productive capacity. In the mean time it keeps our wages and interest rate structure temporarily high and makes the underlying problem worse.

The prospects for productive Australian industry are waning daily. Yet the dollar is still sitting at 90 cents, boosted by the same countries’ central banks that are feasting on our production, and pouring Dutch disease into our ears while we sit back and debate which business is worth saving.

The issue is not who do we bail out. It is how do we reverse the trend of uncompetitiveness that is sweeping everything offshore that is not buried in, or cemented into, the ground. The currency must be actively lowered or it will only drop when the economy does, leaving us bereft of a rebound.

Australian disease is entering its terminal phase, and boy, is it going to be one for the text books.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by UberKnee

Have to agree with all this, Australias produced some good cars but when people act like Aussie built cars last 100 years and foreign cars fall apart after 1 its just silly. Aussie cars are supposedly built for the conditions but develop rattles after a couple of years, bushes wear out like crazy, etc. not built that well really for the conditions. Foreign cars hold up just as well, if not better.

My ZD gas lasted 43 years with no problems other than normal wear and tear...

[MAD]

If it's the 'conditions' that have caused the auto makers to leave, then why are we not seeing the union knocking down the doors in Canberra, instead all we see is a strike every six months or so to ease the symptoms?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by fte50

As for the incompetencies I can only assume no one is infact perfect

Wow. Who'd ever have thought someone on Ford Forums would be making excuses for shoddy production quality in a Holden factory.

Ladies and gentlemen, hell has indeed frozen over....

[fte50]

Originally Posted by MAD

If it's the 'conditions' that have caused the auto makers to leave, then why are we not seeing the union knocking down the doors in Canberra, instead all we see is a strike every six months or so to ease the symptoms?

Firstly, assuming they went knocking on parliaments door, confused experts such as yourself would be the 1st to criticise them.
Lets be real, knocking down a door is a form of thuggery, something 99% of unions left behind long ago.
On the subjects of Strikes, can you please show reference to where strikes have occurred every 6 mths, im interested in seeing this data, thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by b0son

Wow. Who'd ever have thought someone on Ford Forums would be making excuses for shoddy production quality in a Holden factory.

Ladies and gentlemen, hell has indeed frozen over....

No excuses, just reality. My bad - I just assumed a person responsible for the operation of a $1.5mil device, requiring 8 years of training being paid 20-25% more, had the intellect to accept this. But I guess 8yrs training on a single device must amount to slow learning. Sorry.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by fte50

No excuses, just reality.

In a modern, ISO environment? Mistakes can happen, but quality systems should ensure they don't make it out the door.

If that's your reality, I suspect your industry could be next.

[fte50]

Ever heard of "re calls". I guess they should never have made it out the door either...... but they did ..... that's reality.
However 1000% quality is a nice thought, I agree, one which every manufacturer ISO or not strives to achieve. If however you believe ISO accreditation will prevent scrap, you have no idea of manufacturing.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by fte50

Firstly, assuming they went knocking on parliaments door, confused experts such as yourself would be the 1st to criticise them.
Lets be real, knocking down a door is a form of thuggery, something 99% of unions left behind long ago.

So without thuggery all they can do is complain and hope for a few extra bucks in the meantime before it's all gone?


The FTA's aren't exactly new. Self-proclaimed experts like yourself should have seen it coming a long time ago.

[fte50]

Correct, FTAs are not new, and yes we saw it coming, so did certain economists, church groups, welfare & support agencies, also including foreign delegations warning of the negative impacts their own nations had experienced with FTAs, and together debated and rallied the govcos of the era against the FTAs and their engineered evil.
Where were you ??
And for the record don't refer to me as a self proclaimed expert as im not, just a bit more informed than those commentators who are outside of the industry and speculate.... oh like yourself.

[MAD]

When you put everyone down like you do you must be superior, or at least think it.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by stazza

If the EBA was fought for and negotiated by us union members (we are coming up on an EBA renewal in the near future that us paying unionists will be fighting for), then why should non paying members be eligible for any of the benefits? None of them would stand up and negotiate, they would just sit on their hands and hope for the best. And if they get a crappy agreement they would complain to no end and blame the union for signing off on a **** agreement. It's happened at my current workplace.

Have any of you non unionists seriously been in these situations? I'm finding it hard to believe that ANY of you are speaking from experience. Prove me wrong.

No, they would probably take PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, go and re-eductate themselves (or further educate themselves) and make themselves more valuable to their employer. Or look for a new employer that values their newly achieved education more than their current one.

I've never been in a union and never will. Firstly because I believe in my ability to increase my value to a company if needs be by taking personal responsibility for my own development. Here are three more reasons why...

Example 1. My mother, a single mother with 4 kids at home was being harassed daily at her job because she wasn't a union member. Rather than join the union, she left the job and found another one where they valued her for the contribution she made rather than whether or not she carried a ticket.

Example 2. Bosch Electrics in Clayton a few years ago asked the Unions to allow half time for a period as things were slow. Union took a vote and said no. RB came back and said you can use your sick leave and annual leave. Union voted and said no. RB sacked 10% of their staff. People who paid the union fees to have their jobs and their conditions protected. People who were of an age where they possibly won't find another job now.

Example 3. A non union, self employed, contractor working on a site where union is also working. Friday afternoon comes along and the union guy comes up and says "We're going to our BBQ now". Contractor says OK and goes back to work. Union guy says "I don't think you understand. EVERYONE is leaving the site." Contractor just wants to finish his job so he can get on to the next one. He's not being paid to go home. Unions literally infringed on this guys right to work.

Unions are not there to protect the rights of workers. Unions are political organisations that raise funds to pay the wages of their executives then get them elected and become leaders of the Labor party. Plain and simple.

They aren't against "The Man" they ARE "The Man".

[fte50]

Originally Posted by MAD

When you put everyone down like you do you must be superior, or at least think it.

Is that the best u have - Disagreement and challenging/debating a topic is not putting anyone down.

Its just there is a lot of crap floated here by some whom have no idea and force their lies or opinions as truth.....
Just as if I were to comment about bricklaying, something I know nothing about, but continually lament about the industry as if I belonged.

Im done here, if this is some sort of a ****ing contest for you and your select mates I award you full victory.

[BroadyFord]

Honestly, what planet are these guys on?

Toyota's trying it on by threatening to pull out of Australia: union

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226780431459

THE union representing Toyota workers has warned it will not negotiate "with a gun to its head'' after the carmaker said it would consider pulling out of Australia.

The Australian Manufacturing Workers Union dismissed the Toyota threat, accusing it of "really just trying it on''.

"They have seen workers make flexibility commitments at Holden and they just want a bit of the same,'' said Dave Smith, the national secretary of the AMWU's vehicle division.

He was speaking Toyota warned that the future of its Melbourne operations will be under threat if a cost-cutting deal is rejected by unions.

Toyota's warning to unions on future

The warning came as Holden appeared certain to close its Adelaide car plant.

Toyota said yesterday a no vote on a union workplace agreement would send ``a very strong message to our parent company that we are not serious about transforming our business''.

"This will put our ability to continue building cars in Australia at serious risk,'' a spokeswoman said.

But Mr Smith said there was a "big difference the EBA variation at Holden and the offer Toyota have put on the table''.

"That difference is about $1 billion worth of investment.

"Toyota are trying to negotiate with its workforce by putting a gun to their head. This is unacceptable.

"Toyota made an agreement with its workers. It should honour this agreement. If Toyota is serious about staying in Australia it would be campaigning for the government to continue to support its local operations rather than attacking its loyal and committed workforce,'' Mr Smith said.

"The savings they are seeking are relatively minimal and the means they are trying to achieve them are unacceptable.

"Let's be very clear here. If you are asking your workers to reduce their conditions to keep your company in the country, you better be committed to the future - that was what occurred with Holden and it is not occurring here.

"The problem here is that without co-investment certainty that would be provided by government, these companies are coming after their workers.

"These workers are already under significant pressure and stress. Our message to Toyota is if you would like your workforce to have the same flexibility as those at Holden, treat them with the same level of respect and decency.''

In parliament yesterday, Treasurer Joe Hockey warned the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union over the Toyota negotiations. "If you really care about the motor vehicle industry, I say to the Labor Party: ring up your good mates at the AMWU and tell them to recommend to the workers at Toyota that they should accept the deal offered by Toyota on Friday,'' he said.

He said Toyota had an additional cost of manufacturing in Australia of $2800 a vehicle. Toyota needed to get the deal through so it could say to its Japanese parent in good faith, "the workers of Australia really do want a manufacturing business''.

Employees are to vote on Friday on the measures, which would scrap some decades-old allowances. Toyota has described the measures in the agreement as urgently needed to remain productive.

A spokeswoman said AMWU encouragement of a "no'' vote was disappointing Toyota was doing everything possible to secure its employees' future and it expected union support for that.

[MAD]

Originally Posted by fte50

Is that the best u have - Disagreement and challenging/debating a topic is not putting anyone down.

Its just there is a lot of crap floated here by some whom have no idea and force their lies or opinions as truth.....
Just as if I were to comment about bricklaying, something I know nothing about, but continually lament about the industry as if I belonged.

Im done here, if this is some sort of a ****ing contest for you and your select mates I award you full victory.

I'm fine with discussion/debate/disagreement.
When you jump up on your high horse and claim no-one has an idea, then it starts to get old.


If the union was serious about looking after their members, they would not stop picketing the gov to remove, or modify, the FTA's.
How many members will they have when we have no manufacturing?


It looks like Australia is headed towards a supply of niche fabrication work only.
Everything is being built at a much lower cost overseas then shipped here. But when it falls apart, or there is a handling mishap, it's up to the local guys to fix it in a hurry.
I imagine this will primarily be small workshops of less than 10 permanent staff.
Do you really think the union will infiltrate to those businesses?

[vztrt]

From some contacts regarding Toyota the $3800 per car problem is really their only problem......unless Holden pull out. If out dollar drops to 80c then the cost savings they're trying to implement won't really be required. I know one supplier is trying to reduce its costs so it wouldn't surprise me if Toyota are asking for reduced parts cost as well.

[RANGEREST]

Without reading all of this thread I'll just make one comment,
Do as the union is saying, Reject the reforms! get every cent out of Toyota you can, get made redundant, fight for the same jobs as the ex ford and holden employees, then go on the dole, or work for an ******** like me that can not afford to pay you much more than 15% above the award.(I'll guarantee its alot less than you're on now)

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by MAD

If it's the 'conditions' that have caused the auto makers to leave, then why are we not seeing the union knocking down the doors in Canberra, instead all we see is a strike every six months or so to ease the symptoms?

mad . why are you so insistant on blaming unions for everything wrong with our economy and competitiveness .
our houses have gone through the roof in pricing . australian mortgages are growing faster than inflation , essential services are increasing around 7% pa .
and someone like yourself blames union for trying to keep up with inflation .
GET OVER IT MAN . just cause you might of had a bad experience with a union , others have had thier jobs saved by them and not been discriminated against because of unions .
GIVE IT A BREAK . asll you see is unions destroying jobs . never business owners who want to emply people in india for $10 per day .

these very stories only ever become public when a union passes comment on what a company is planning . thats where we need to stop and judge in the 1st place . not the unions reaction !!!

outside of australias wealthiest people ( the top 10% ) who elses children are going to be able to pay for accomodation and bills in this country , weather its an exhorberant mortgage or rent . in todays market as it is now . ( which is being stripped away as it is ) ,.. and we get our own very citizins. saying that we need to lower our living even further . we are already reducing lasnd sizes to 350sq metres and small houses for or people to pay off over thier whole working life . people are now staying at home rather than take a holiday , and starting to live with bad teeth ( even the workers ) . and your answer . give them a knife to stop the suffering

[b0son]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

and someone like yourself blames union for trying to keep up with inflation .

holden employee wages went up at nearly DOUBLE the rate of inflation

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by b0son

holden employee wages went up at nearly DOUBLE the rate of inflation

so did the cost of living over the last 10 years.

how many staff have holden made changes too , such as manning training etc over that time ?

[MAD]

Not blaming, just wondering.

The gov has a lot to answer for everything thats gone to hell in aus. But perhaps the unions could have had some influence if they banded together united and took it to the top instead of just fighting the local bosses.

Weren't the unions born from fighting for the rights of every person? They only seem to be focused on a 'per workplace' basis now.


What really gets my goat is how the origins of unionism and workplace rights seems to be bought up everytime a unionist wants to justify what they've done and belittle anyone that isn't a member.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by b0son

holden employee wages went up at nearly DOUBLE the rate of inflation

A lot of incorrect shyte was spread about the 2011 EBA deals but the agreement was for 3% per year
and ratified in March 2012 so they probably got another 3% earlier this year before the wage freeze cam in..


Also, during the GFC, both shifts back then were placed on half work, half pay for quite an extended period.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by MAD

I'm fine with discussion/debate/disagreement.
When you jump up on your high horse and claim no-one has an idea, then it starts to get old.

FFS!

What gets old very quick is the number of "commentators" the ones that read some poxy article banged up by some journalist and then proclaim to know it all and have all the solutions.

Some of us (very few) have more perspective than the view of the next pay packet and actually give a crap about the future of what was once a great country and what will be left for our kids and grandchildren.
I don't work in the auto industry but I sure as hell know where a lot of Australia's engineering talent came from.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by MAD

Not blaming, just wondering.

The gov has a lot to answer for everything thats gone to hell in aus. But perhaps the unions could have had some influence if they banded together united and took it to the top instead of just fighting the local bosses.

Weren't the unions born from fighting for the rights of every person? They only seem to be focused on a 'per workplace' basis now.


What really gets my goat is how the origins of unionism and workplace rights seems to be bought up everytime a unionist wants to justify what they've done and belittle anyone that isn't a member.

well i agree with you on these issues . the govt made 2ndry boycott strikes illegal . the union agreed in some sense to abide with that law . probably a mistake , but never the less . that reduced woirk place issues to the very wrk place . thats why you dont see nurses go out , becouse teachers have an issue with class sizes etc . or trucks blockade the roads because the govt imports tomatoes etc . all these things once happened .
fair work australia now loses authority yearly and has less of a voice every year , media gag the truth and show one sided stories . why wouldn't they . have you ever seen anyone in the media not on 10 times the salary of most australians.
dont you think it's a little disrespectfull when someone on $1m pa says that day care workers need to lose 3 bucks an hour , cutting them from 19 to 16 . or tolls being introduced and govt giving away our roads to private overseas firms , that we pay taxes for in our registrations ect for roads .
whats worse is the VERY PEOPLE THEM,SELVES GET JELOUS OF SOMEONE EARNING MORE THAN THEM, , others get jelous of someone earning far less . radio announcers having a go at someone on $30 hr and everyday people agreeing with the radio announbcer .
unions have lost power and backing of the people therefore they only now have things like discrimination , and contract entitlements to protect .
unions know this . only around 30% of people will defend themselves , and not all of them will put thier jobs on the line when they could be personally sued for production losses .
make no miostake . when the **** does hit the fan and the people take a real stand ingnoring the laws . than the govt and the bifg comapnies get over ruled and become the miniroty . thats when real power takes hand , until then we'll keep talking about how good the wealthy people overseas have it cause thier workers cop a bullet for talking back , and live in mud shacks the whole extended family of 20 people , 9 to a room .


to further backup what i'm saying is all the media need to do is release a story like this , and put a union word in the title , and we then get social media and ordinary folk ridiculing the very people and employees that work for the company .
how would a holden employee feel reading this thread , with people hating them , and the only people trying to defend them being unionists , who also cop abuse as well , the whole thing becomes about wages they earn , saying it's too much . untill this reaction stops from the public will the very action stop by the owners and our govt .

[b0son]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

so did the cost of living over the last 10 years.

you might want to check with the ABS... your statement isn't close to true.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A lot of incorrect shyte was spread about the 2011 EBA deals but the agreement was for 3% per year

I'm not talking over the last EBA, I'm talking about the last 21 years! That's 21 years of wages going up by nearly double CPI. That's unsutainable by any definition.

What I'm more curious about though, is why would Holden agree to such terms? Why not just tell them all to flap off and retrain a new award-rate workforce? Was that even an option?