E85 Fallen on its ***?

[CAT600]

I dont believe the emissions cost would have been much at all... you could tune for stoich and Ethanol would burn cleaner BEFORE you added any timing I promise you.

Plus they run an optical sensor in the return line to manage the injector duty cycle at various % of Ethanol in the tank... Holden would have an easier time doing the calibration on an AFM/E85 badged car than your local SCT tuner would as he has to tune to whats in the tank on the day, Holden have a sensor telling the ECM how much Ethanol is in there.

Look at all the aftermarket companies selling Flex Fuel add-on kits out there.. doing it with next to no budget!

Daniel

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ecoboost on the other hand has been a total flop, FPV sell more V8's than Ford do Ecoboosts.

How many people even know about Ecoboost?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by CAT600

I dont believe the emissions cost would have been much at all... you could tune for stoich and Ethanol would burn cleaner BEFORE you added any timing I promise you.

Plus they run an optical sensor in the return line to manage the injector duty cycle at various % of Ethanol in the tank... Holden would have an easier time doing the calibration on an AFM/E85 badged car than your local SCT tuner would as he has to tune to whats in the tank on the day, Holden have a sensor telling the ECM how much Ethanol is in there.

Look at all the aftermarket companies selling Flex Fuel add-on kits out there.. doing it with next to no budget!

Daniel

It's not a case of doing a tune and saying there it passes, it must go through a complete range of testing including hot/cold, cold starts, altitude, NVH, durability etc. The government requires hundreds of pages of paperwork to get certification, and it doesn't matter how small a change has been made to the engine it still requires the full certification process. It's big money. Holden would have had to have done it with every engine type ie. 3, 3.6, 6.0 and 6.2 plus auto and manual of each.

Aftermarket stuff doesn't need that so can be done cheap.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holden would have had to have done it with every engine type ie. 3, 3.6, 6.0 and 6.2 plus auto and manual of each.

They didn't do it with the 6.2, for whatever reason (I find it odd given its in V8SC, and HSV is supposed to be benefit from exposure there)

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It's not a case of doing a tune and saying there it passes, it must go through a complete range of testing including hot/cold, cold starts, altitude, NVH, durability etc. The government requires hundreds of pages of paperwork to get certification, and it doesn't matter how small a change has been made to the engine it still requires the full certification process. It's big money. Holden would have had to have done it with every engine type ie. 3, 3.6, 6.0 and 6.2 plus auto and manual of each.

Aftermarket stuff doesn't need that so can be done cheap.

Just the durability testing would surely have taken months of driving to get thru??? Unless they get all that data from the GM already to cut corners???

[Davehoos]

there was articals in trade papers and local newspapers that certain group of industry requested that the Australian emission measurement standard be modified to bring it inline with other countries.

IE the cold start up process not be measured. that the articals claime was the way it occurs in the USA and Europe for ethonal engines.

some if not all emission testing for the direct injection holden engine was done at orbital and was online to read. Its a trade thing lots of big words and graphs. good read.

At the time I though thank #### great someone with brains. THEN others complained about certain industries being given a leg up and due to ethonal used in Australia causes starvation in mexico,and that local wood fuel was killing tree frogs---over the other quality hybid and LPG vehicle that was made in OZ-- that's now no longer going to be produced.

P/S--when I imported skyline to OZ, the emission test carried out to gain data in NSW and comply it--the test didn't start till the engine was warm--the educated people at the EPA and RTA thought it was stupid to measure this.

My 1985 skyline with 165 000KM passed for a new 2002 model car.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It's not a case of doing a tune and saying there it passes, it must go through a complete range of testing including hot/cold, cold starts, altitude, NVH, durability etc. The government requires hundreds of pages of paperwork to get certification, and it doesn't matter how small a change has been made to the engine it still requires the full certification process. It's big money. Holden would have had to have done it with every engine type ie. 3, 3.6, 6.0 and 6.2 plus auto and manual of each.

Aftermarket stuff doesn't need that so can be done cheap.

You are missing my point... what I am saying is that Holden's Flex fuel systems make it even simpler than someone with no test cells or fancy equipment.

If a car had 30lb per hour injectors in it and you swapped in 42lb units (very simple example, but lets assume it was 35% more flow in every way) and swapped to E85 the car would run exactly the same just burn cleaner and have better emissions.... its a very straightforward process very different to say tuning on LPG or LPi

Daniel

[Qwik6]

I read the first page or most of it......

[rev]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Actually I have tried the United E100 in my stock 6T and found it to perform worse than the usual 98 I get from BP/Shell/Mobil. Maybe it was the dodgy United taxi petrol station in my area … but then there are very few stations in Sydney offering it.

Interesting, my FG NA tuned for BP98 loves United p100. I have checked it with my tuner and a second source. No need for a retune and both said it is good stuff.

Bob

[dimka100]

I'm sure the supplied E100 petrol is of a good quality just like a typical 98 octane petrol is, however my worry is the petrol station itself ... Basically that station only serves taxis and I have never seen a single decent car ever pullover to fill up in there. This means that the usage of E100 would be extremely minimal leading to the petrol siting for ages in the tanks, aging, collecting water, and evaporating ... I think this is the reason why I noticed a difference straight away.

BTW I live next to the city, and all the other major petrol stations have a huge turnover ... probably leading to fresh petrol being frequently delivered.

Originally Posted by rev

Interesting, my FG NA tuned for BP98 loves United p100. I have checked it with my tuner and a second source. No need for a retune and both said it is good stuff.Bob

[territorrie]

Gd news from my end as another e85 pump will now be avail to my beast. Closest pump around 5km and the other two within 10kms.
Have been running this fuel for nearly 4 years now without fail!
Power gains are excellent, cheap to filll but but but bloody no good for economy if used as a daily. Hmmmm, ponders for a second tune on 98!?!

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Like others have said, it would have cost Holden next to nothing to make their existing engine range E85 compatible. Designing a modern LPI system like Ford's for the 3.0, 3.6 and 6.0 would have not only cost a ridiculous amount of money, but created even more separate models with range issues (due to the sparse availability of LPG once you leave the city) that Australians clearly aren't interested in (look at Ford's ecoLPI sales numbers). Holden themselves said that they did the E85 compatibility to future-proof the car somewhat against dramatic and unexpected fuel price spikes. They acknowledged that it's not about saving a buck today, but down the track who knows- what if unleaded prices started spiking to over 2 bucks a litre? In the UK they're paying the equivalent of $2.40 AUD per litre, what if our fuel prices got that bad? Holden have considered it and good on them, they've added an alternative fuel capability to every petrol Commodore without charging any extra for it, I don't see how people can have a gripe with that.

Next to nothing? I was under the impression they spent millions of their own money and a lot of testing for this project. And wasn't ford given a nice govco sum for the ecolpi falcon and the diesel terri, due to the Eco nature of the projects?

[93EB_SXR6]

Accidentally put e10 in my VS Commodore once, ran like poo and got terrible economy.
A mate puts e10 and e85 in his VE Calais, have driven it on both ethanol and ULP and definitely goes better on ethanol - especially e85.

It's all about what your car is designed to run on. Let's not rehash the topic of LPG, it has it's place and is a good way to save serious $$$ if you do a lot of kms.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Next to nothing? I was under the impression they spent millions of their own money and a lot of testing for this project. And wasn't ford given a nice govco sum for the ecolpi falcon and the diesel terri, due to the Eco nature of the projects?

Absolutely. But it's all relative, a few million in the auto industry is a very small amount. Consider that the EcoBoost project alone cost more than $40 million. I would be surprised if Holden spent even a tenth of that on their E85 project. Then there's EcoPLI, which also would have cost a huge amount of money. From what I've read in a Ford press release, the diesel Territory, EcoLPI and EcoBoost cost a whopping $232 million. Some of it was contributed by the government (which seems to only be fashionable when Ford receives it, I bet if Holden were the ones spending government money on failed projects like EcoBoost, many people around here would be burning them alive for it). So yes, compared to what Ford did (and what some have suggested Holden should have done), the E85 project really did cost Holden next to nothing.

[martyal44]

The United outlet at North Wyong NSW just installed an E85 pump, I assume they did their homework 1st..

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Absolutely. But it's all relative, a few million in the auto industry is a very small amount. Consider that the EcoBoost project alone cost more than $40 million. I would be surprised if Holden spent even a tenth of that on their E85 project. Then there's EcoPLI, which also would have cost a huge amount of money. From what I've read in a Ford press release, the diesel Territory, EcoLPI and EcoBoost cost a whopping $232 million. Some of it was contributed by the government (which seems to only be fashionable when Ford receives it, I bet if Holden were the ones spending government money on failed projects like EcoBoost, many people around here would be burning them alive for it). So yes, compared to what Ford did (and what some have suggested Holden should have done), the E85 project really did cost Holden next to nothing.

O.k so Holden spent their own money on the new E85/flex fuel system. Not a bad idea looking towards the future obviously but, I still say the whole Ethanol industry/idea has been a flop since it was first designed/released.

And probably the same goese for the EcoLPi Falcon too really?

Poor advertsisng, lack of of proper knowledge about the industry and system so consumer just goes back to the same old petrol/diesel models they have been buying for aloooong time now???

Ford and Holdens fault for not marketing products properly really!

[Dave R]

Still early days for ethanol, we'll see where it goes over the next decade.

[graham_h]

Originally Posted by rev

Interesting, my FG NA tuned for BP98 loves United p100. I have checked it with my tuner and a second source. No need for a retune and both said it is good stuff.

Bob

Hi Bob
Did you need any hardware (injector, fuel pump etc) or did you get just a tune ?
Who did you use ?
Also, if 98,100 or e85 isn't available does it run ok on 91 ?
Cheers
Graham

Luckily I've just got a brand new united servo next door to my work.
E85 and 100

[rev]

Originally Posted by graham_h

Hi Bob
Did you need any hardware (injector, fuel pump etc) or did you get just a tune ?
Who did you use ?
Also, if 98,100 or e85 isn't available does it run ok on 91 ?
Cheers
Graham

Luckily I've just got a brand new united servo next door to my work.
E85 and 100

I have my car tuned for BP98 for quite some time. It is an NA FG so no hardware changes were required. My car has never used anything less than 98 RON. To run it on 91 RON I presume I would need to retune the tune to stock. Keep in mind I only use 100 RON now,not E85 but could run 98 with no trouble. E85 is a different beast and cannot be used without modifications to your car.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by rev

I have my car tuned for BP98 for quite some time. It is an NA FG so no hardware changes were required. My car has never used anything less than 98 RON. To run it on 91 RON I presume I would need to retune the tune to stock. Keep in mind I only use 100 RON now,not E85 but could run 98 with no trouble. E85 is a different beast and cannot be used without modifications to your car.

Well Ford pbviously didn't see the need to spend money developing/modifying their fuel systems to suit like Holden did.

Previous posts have suggested Holden spent ALOT to do it.

Maybe Ford preferred to sit back and wait and see how popular the fuel becomes first before spending big money???

That's why I see the EcoLPi as a better move because the fuel is cheap and thers already plenty of pumps around.

I really thought the taxi industry would be all over the EcoLPi but some say taxi's are actually never bought new they're usually just ex fleet cars with duel fuel systems I think???

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Next to nothing? I was under the impression they spent millions of their own money and a lot of testing for this project. And wasn't ford given a nice govco sum for the ecolpi falcon and the diesel terri, due to the Eco nature of the projects?

Ford was given $40 million to develop EcoLPI, V6 diesel territory and Ecoboost Falcon, pretty reasonable IMO.
The only thing I wonder is what would have happened if Ford had just gone with the V6 diesel for Falcon, Territory and Ute..

No doubt the fear with that was that diesel option would simply replace I-6 sales without adding volume.
But in the great hindsight, a super efficient range of diesel products may have changed Falcon and territory's fortunes.
I could imagine that 7 to 8 litres/100 km combined for a large car/Ute/SUV combo would be very attractive to fleet and retail buyers..

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford was given $40 million to develop EcoLPI, V6 diesel territory and Ecoboost Falcon, pretty reasonable IMO.
The only thing I wonder is what would have happened if Ford had just gone with the V6 diesel for Falcon, Territory and Ute..

No doubt the fear with that was that diesel option would simply replace I-6 sales without adding volume.
But in the great hindsight, a super efficient range of diesel products may have changed Falcon and territory's fortunes.
I could imagine that 7 to 8 litres/100 km combined for a large car/Ute/SUV combo would be very attractive to fleet and retail buyers..

If they went V6 for Falcon they would of had to shut Geelong down even sooner than they already are going to.

The Terri Diesel V6 is built buy Jaguar isn't and obviously already assembled when they get here.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Well Ford pbviously didn't see the need to spend money developing/modifying their fuel systems to suit like Holden did.

Previous posts have suggested Holden spent ALOT to do it.

Maybe Ford preferred to sit back and wait and see how popular the fuel becomes first before spending big money???

That's why I see the EcoLPi as a better move because the fuel is cheap and thers already plenty of pumps around.

I really thought the taxi industry would be all over the EcoLPi but some say taxi's are actually never bought new they're usually just ex fleet cars with duel fuel systems I think???

Just because Ford did not spend money on engines for E85 fuel means it is a failure, there is a market for E85 otherwise the Petrol companies would not waste their time producing it.

In reality they are making sales & money from it so that in it self tells you E85 progressing forwards not backwards.

You can argue much as you like but availability to the public proves it to be a going concern..... FACT!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by EF_6

If they went V6 for Falcon they would of had to shut
Geelong down even sooner than they already are going to.

Yes but Falcon production may have become more efficient by using corporate engines.
Less people building the same amount of cars, all engine sourced from overseas engine plants...

[AU1XLS]

Starting to go around in circles and straying of topic
Closed