Twice as Many P platers died this year than last - Power Restrictions

[[Tonko]]

im not getting into your argument,
When i first got my P's, i was a typical arrogant "untouchable" P-plater, it was not until a very close call with a tree and power pole i decided to wise up, im just so glad it wasnt another car i nearly collected... that was in my CFI 3 speed EA fairmont...
When i went to look at my XR8 before i bought it id had my P's for about 17 months and had only one close call and felt i learnt my lesson, so i was responsible enough to have an EB XR8.
I do not show off with mates in the car, or watching for that matter and if they think less of me for that, thats their problem, im not having another potential disaster just to earn a reputation for being hardcore on the roads...its just not worth it...
I.M.O a good punishment for P-platers being caught doing something silly is Passenger restrictions, car restrictions, or possibly put them back on their L plates for a year or so...

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I'd say an 84 Corolla is MORE dangerous then an XR6 Turbo. Why? Well, lets start with brakes. They're not very good. And 22 years on they'll be even less good. They're light, and built from flimsy, thin materials, they're not very impact resistant. I'd rather be in a hit at 100km/h in a BA then at 50 in an old Corolla.

The XR6 would also be better able to avoid an accident. What with a simple feature such as ABS, that allows inexperienced drivers who do not know how to threshold brake, to steer while braking, and possibly steer their way out of a collision. The Corolla would lock up and slide into whatever they're trying not to hit.

There is ZERO passive saftey in said Corolla. So if you do hit something or get hit, there's a very good chance that you're going to go splat inside it, whereas the Falcon driver is very well protected.

Then of course there's the POS vs New Car factor. Having just moved from a '91 Pintara that I sold for $400 to a brand new Fiesta, I can vouch for it with real experience. Young people don't take care of cars like that. They thrash them and think its fun. You're far more likely to see an old POS like that being thrashed to pieces, whereas a newer car would get taken greater care of. My mate that I sold that car to drives like crap, I hate being in the car with him, and he does it for that very reason. He didn't pay much for it, he doesn't care.

And let me give you a slightly different version of your scenario with the straight followed by bend...

P-Plater in Corolla gets onto the straight, guns it, hits 80km/h, brakes late, panics, hits the brakes hard, car locks up and slides straight into a tree. P-Plater dies.

P-Plater in XR6 Turbo gets onto the straight, guns it, hits 160km/h, brakes late, panics, hits the brakes hard, they don't lock up, is able to manouvre away from said tree while under full braking application.

And to finish, my mother died resulting from an accident in a 1988 Corolla. She was not in any way a fast or dangerous driver, it was just a chain of unfortunate events caused by other drivers on the road that led to it. Had she been driving say, an EL Falcon (the newest at the time), she would be alive today. Passive saftey (ie: airbags) means alot.

Vehicle restrictions won't do anything. Idiots will continue to be idiots in vehicles that are now not capable of saving them in any way.

Steffo - I don't know if you actually read what I wrote but a late model Corolla has the same safety features as a late model XR6T - why are you comparing an 84 Corolla against a XR6T (2002 model at oldest) - it is a ridiculous comparison. If a P plater is banned from driving a $50K sportscar why the hell will they go buy a $1000 20 year old Corolla? You are drawing a long bow.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I'd say an 84 Corolla is MORE dangerous then an XR6 Turbo. Why? Well, lets start with brakes. They're not very good. And 22 years on they'll be even less good. They're light, and built from flimsy, thin materials, they're not very impact resistant. I'd rather be in a hit at 100km/h in a BA then at 50 in an old Corolla.

The XR6 would also be better able to avoid an accident. What with a simple feature such as ABS, that allows inexperienced drivers who do not know how to threshold brake, to steer while braking, and possibly steer their way out of a collision. The Corolla would lock up and slide into whatever they're trying not to hit.

There is ZERO passive saftey in said Corolla. So if you do hit something or get hit, there's a very good chance that you're going to go splat inside it, whereas the Falcon driver is very well protected.

Then of course there's the POS vs New Car factor. Having just moved from a '91 Pintara that I sold for $400 to a brand new Fiesta, I can vouch for it with real experience. Young people don't take care of cars like that. They thrash them and think its fun. You're far more likely to see an old POS like that being thrashed to pieces, whereas a newer car would get taken greater care of. My mate that I sold that car to drives like crap, I hate being in the car with him, and he does it for that very reason. He didn't pay much for it, he doesn't care.

And let me give you a slightly different version of your scenario with the straight followed by bend...

P-Plater in Corolla gets onto the straight, guns it, hits 80km/h, brakes late, panics, hits the brakes hard, car locks up and slides straight into a tree. P-Plater dies.

P-Plater in XR6 Turbo gets onto the straight, guns it, hits 160km/h, brakes late, panics, hits the brakes hard, they don't lock up, is able to manouvre away from said tree while under full braking application.

And to finish, my mother died resulting from an accident in a 1988 Corolla. She was not in any way a fast or dangerous driver, it was just a chain of unfortunate events caused by other drivers on the road that led to it. Had she been driving say, an EL Falcon (the newest at the time), she would be alive today. Passive saftey (ie: airbags) means alot.

Vehicle restrictions won't do anything. Idiots will continue to be idiots in vehicles that are now not capable of saving them in any way.

Steffo, some seem to still miss the point, a sensible driver is probably safer in the XR6T only because of the safety features, a sensible driver in the corolla will adapt their driving style to suit the vehicle they're in and the conditions of the road they're driving on.
On the other hand someone who's got little driving experience and wants to carry on is probably safer in the Corolla because acceleration and power (NOT necessarily speed) are no longer a factor for them to ABUSE and have to deal with should things get out of hand...
I don't think an XR6T is a good example because its a refined civilised vehicle, there are other older more appropriate examples of vehicles with allot of power and poor manners as a vehicle (VL turbo).
Rules are brought in to protect the innocent from the idiots.... unfortunately the lowest common denominator allways penalises the good decent drivers of all ages.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by merlin

Steffo - I don't know if you actually read what I wrote but a late model Corolla has the same safety features as a late model XR6T - why are you comparing an 84 Corolla against a XR6T (2002 model at oldest) - it is a ridiculous comparison. If a P plater is banned from driving a $50K sportscar why the hell will they go buy a $1000 20 year old Corolla? You are drawing a long bow.

There are people who do that though. I personally know some. They have the money to buy something like say, an AUII XR8, but because they can't at the moment, they keep that money aside and buy an old, $1k piece of crap to drive until they can buy said XR8. And the way that old car gets driven...

[drcook]

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

i think the conditions of the roads is partly to blame, theres potholes and bumps and patches

a poor builder always blames his tools.

[drcook]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I agree, but if you cant keep idiots off the road then you have to remove as many factors as you can, powerful cars are certainly 1 undeniable contributing factor.

although i agree with all your posts in this thread 4Vman, i think in this instance the point is being missed.

"if you cant keep idiots of the road" - yes you can. its called a stricter licencing system with better education (compulsory passing of a qualified driver training centre course)

"you have to remove as many factors as you can" - if said stricter licencing system was put in place, then you could argue that these factors dont have to be removed ie, powerful cars.

i seriously think there is a general public mindset that everyone should be allowed to drive but then enjoy government intervantion to protect them from themselves. if a person needs protecting from themselves (ie, restrictions on cars, cerfew, etc) then they should be able to get a licence!.

[drcook]

Originally Posted by photn

stats are also showing that it is more deadlier to be doing 60 that 110 in a metropolitan area.

can we see this stat. that sounds rubbish.

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by Steffo

P-Plater in XR6 Turbo gets onto the straight, guns it, hits 160km/h, brakes late, panics, hits the brakes hard, they don't lock up, is able to manouvre away from said tree while under full braking application.

You're telling me a p plater is still going to avoid the tree while panicing 9 times out of 10? Rubbish.

Yes the XR6 is a safer car. If you're driving within the road rules. ABS and air bags will so SFA when you put the car into a tree sideways at 130kph.

Try even getting an Corolla sideways.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by drcook

although i agree with all your posts in this thread 4Vman, i think in this instance the point is being missed.

"if you cant keep idiots of the road" - yes you can. its called a stricter licencing system with better education (compulsory passing of a qualified driver training centre course)

"you have to remove as many factors as you can" - if said stricter licencing system was put in place, then you could argue that these factors dont have to be removed ie, powerful cars.

i seriously think there is a general public mindset that everyone should be allowed to drive but then enjoy government intervantion to protect them from themselves. if a person needs protecting from themselves (ie, restrictions on cars, cerfew, etc) then they should be able to get a licence!.

I honestly dont believe its possible to asses someone's attitude, mindset or level of maturity in regards to how they conduct themselves behind the wheel in any form of formalised driving test, even some of the crazyiest drivers can behave themselves enough to pass a driving test or skill test.
Some of the most idiotic drivers ive ever seen are very good drivers in terms of skills and car control, its their attitude to driving that gets them in trouble or at worst involved in a fatality.

Maybe some psycologists can analyse the minds of crazy young drivers and see if its possible to isolate a common behavioural indicator, and refuse people who display this indicator or trait a licence.

[merlin]

Changing tack from the actual vehicle what do people think of compulsary 2 day training course to get L's being added? I'm not talking a defensive driving course here where you get to hoon round a track I am talking like the same for bikes - it is a mixture of some theory in a classroom with the majority out on a skidpan where you learn basic car control (not slides, oversteer ect. I mean steering slowly round cones, practising roundabouts marked with witches hats ect., speed limit on the skid pan is usually bout 50km/h.

[DOC]

Originally Posted by merlin

Changing tack from the actual vehicle what do people think of compulsary 2 day training course to get L's being added? I'm not talking a defensive driving course .

Change of tac is good, for my 2c we have seen every reason why not this and that, as you have is good but to take it further if serious there needs to be more do' ers and less talkers, it can be talked about all day but unless some one gets of thier bum and does something it's all hot air.

i also think instead of a punishment approach to the problem, ignore those doing stupid things the police wll sort em, but instead creating a reward system for those wanting to do the right thing is a darn good start

[drcook]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I honestly dont believe its possible to asses someone's attitude, mindset or level of maturity in regards to how they conduct themselves behind the wheel in any form of formalised driving test, even some of the crazyiest drivers can behave themselves enough to pass a driving test or skill test.
Some of the most idiotic drivers ive ever seen are very good drivers in terms of skills and car control, its their attitude to driving that gets them in trouble or at worst involved in a fatality.

Maybe some psycologists can analyse the minds of crazy young drivers and see if its possible to isolate a common behavioural indicator, and refuse people who display this indicator or trait a licence.

thats why i go back to my original post where i think the attitiude has to change, as we've both said, to them regarding a licence as a privelage & responsibility not just a piece of plastic that they think they deserve to have.

when does a person appreciate something? when they have had to work for it. you see it everyday. older millionaire businessmen of today still have that level of humility because they appreciate the hard work theyve put in to creating there wealth. then look at their kids. the kids have never worked a hard day in their life and just blow the money out the window because they dont appreciate it!

its the same with a licence. if a person has had to endure driver training courses (compulsory, and have had to pass them) at their learners & provisional courses, plus the written tests (harder than the bollocks they face atm), plus road tests (harder) plus an increase in costs (say, 600-800 dollars overall) then when they finally get their licence they think

"geez, that was hard, not many of us are passing, and its easy to loose, and if i loose it then i have to go through that all again, i appreciate this"

[gozza]

Half of Todays Kids don't even study for it
A short while after i got my l's....A cheat sheet started circulating with answers to the 6 different tests they were handing out

I had numerous amounts of associates use the cheats and pass

[photn]

Originally Posted by drcook

can we see this stat. that sounds rubbish.

this should work. table 22.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety...tstats2004.pdf

[xbgs351]

Perhaps if the Learners and P1 drivers were allowed to drive at the posted speed limit instead of at a maximum of 80 and 90 km/h respectively, then P plate drivers may have experience at these speeds that present the most danger.

Parents don't let their L plated children drive on country trips as the trip will take too long sitting at 80 km/h and the danger of getting rear ended is high. Hence, not only do young drivers miss out on getting driving experience in general, but they also miss out at experience at highway speeds and they never get to learn how to overtake in a safe manner.

[gozza]

.....................

[buickman]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I honestly dont believe its possible to asses someone's attitude, mindset or level of maturity in regards to how they conduct themselves behind the wheel in any form of formalised driving test, even some of the crazyiest drivers can behave themselves enough to pass a driving test or skill test.
Some of the most idiotic drivers ive ever seen are very good drivers in terms of skills and car control, its their attitude to driving that gets them in trouble or at worst involved in a fatality.

Maybe some psycologists can analyse the minds of crazy young drivers and see if its possible to isolate a common behavioural indicator, and refuse people who display this indicator or trait a licence.

I tend to agree on your comments as I have a young nephew that is studing at uni & is a very placied, mature polite person . But behind the wheel of the WRX he owns he becames another person I've spotted him numourous times because of his personlised plates racing & driving at insane speeds on public roads. I rang him a couple of times telling him to slow down & that he could kill others as well as himself plus the likely hood of lossing his car.
I not to sure how you would test someone that is intelligent & polite in every manner but sometimes driving dangerously with no regard to saftey maybe it is the challange in younger people that if a car wants a race on the public roads they don't seem to have control over the challange or the fear of death.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by gozza

Half of Todays Kids don't even study for it
A short while after i got my l's....A cheat sheet started circulating with answers to the 6 different tests they were handing out

I had numerous amounts of associates use the cheats and pass

Lol the people who use cheat sheets to pass the test must be really, simply put, stupid!

A baby could pass these tests. Hell I reckon a monkey could even!

They are way too easy.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

They are way too easy.

It's not the tests that are easy, it's the content:

Give way to your right (or all other traffic if you're manouvering).

Lol, kinda scary if people cant pass the theory tests without crib notes!!!

[EBFalcs]

Originally Posted by drcook

a poor builder always blames his tools.

mate! most of alot of deaths, probably more than half are on country raods, and have any of you seen the condition of them, i have i drive on em everyday, they are ******, wrong cambers half the road worn away, and most the people who die are city people who don't realise how **** the country roads are

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

mate! most of alot of deaths, probably more than half are on country raods, and have any of you seen the condition of them, i have i drive on em everyday, they are ******, wrong cambers half the road worn away, and most the people who die are city people who don't realise how **** the country roads are

Im not so sure about those "statistics".. however i do know intelligent driving is about assessing the conditions you're delt with and adjusting your driving accordingly....
If the roads are in need of repair you dont just travel at the posted speed limits because "the roads should be in better condition"....

[EBFalcs]

and as soon as a young driver crahses and dies, high powered cars are instantly blamed, even if it was a ford laser in the crash, i rarely see crash death pics in the paper that have a high powered car, they are usually 6 cyl commos or falcons, which yes are still powerful cars but, when the term "high powered cars" is used it is usually refering to V8's and forced induction cars, people always assume it's a high powered car because the media instantly applies that in reports, and the media is a very evil and powerful tool, it can manipulate people into believing anything.
you wait, in 50 yrs time there will be documentaries on the terrorism today and it will reveal the truth of how close we are today to a massive world conflict, but for now the media will just lead you to believe it is minor conflict, that's an example of the power of the media.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

and as soon as a young driver crahses and dies, high powered cars are instantly blamed, even if it was a ford laser in the crash, i rarely see crash death pics in the paper that have a high powered car, they are usually 6 cyl commos or falcons, which yes are still powerful cars but, when the term "high powered cars" is used it is usually refering to V8's and forced induction cars, people always assume it's a high powered car because the media instantly applies that in reports, and the media is a very evil and powerful tool, it can manipulate people into believing anything.
you wait, in 50 yrs time there will be documentaries on the terrorism today and it will reveal the truth of how close we are today to a massive world conflict, but for now the media will just lead you to believe it is minor conflict, that's an example of the power of the media.

That's simply not true, ive never seen a fatality blamed on high powered cars if a high powered car and excessive speed wasn't involved....

[gozza]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Lol the people who use cheat sheets to pass the test must be really, simply put, stupid!

A baby could pass these tests. Hell I reckon a monkey could even!

They are way too easy.

Yeah man, but no matter how easy or hard somthing is....if you don't learn it then you don't know what your doing

[EBFalcs]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That's simply not true, ive never seen a fatality blamed on high powered cars if a high powered car and excessive speed wasn't involved....

how many examples of high powred cars driven by a 17-25 year old crashed and killed the driver, do you have. probably a lot less than low powered cars because most young people can't afford high powered V8's, how many 17-25 yr olds on thise site have a high, powered car eg V8 or forced induction

[T_Terror]

Originally Posted by EBFalcs

how many examples of high powred cars driven by a 17-25 year old crashed and killed the driver, do you have. probably a lot less than low powered cars because most young people can't afford high powered V8's, how many 17-25 yr olds on thise site have a high, powered car eg V8 or forced induction

Yeah gotta agree with you there. We all hear about the guys with flash new GT-Rs and XR8s, most of who either saved and worked hard or got dad to buy it.
In my age level, most guys had shitty old 15yr+ cars. Noone talks about the time those guys pulled 200kmh or drifted through an intersection, flash cars get the attention.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

You're telling me a p plater is still going to avoid the tree while panicing 9 times out of 10? Rubbish.

Yes the XR6 is a safer car. If you're driving within the road rules. ABS and air bags will so SFA when you put the car into a tree sideways at 130kph.

Try even getting an Corolla sideways.

No, entering a corner at a speed like that without skill etc etc, especially if the corner can't be taken at said speed safely, will almost always have bad results. However, there are far more chances of survival/avoidance in a modern performance car with advanced suspension, chassis, braking and saftey technology compared to a car with none of the above.

I've taken a '90 Holden Nova LE (Corolla rebadged) with the 3A-FC I believe, engine sideways before. That's a 1.4L Carb 4cyl that was lucky to have 50kW when it was new, let alone the 250,000km old stuffed $700 example I was driving. And yes, it was a stupid thing to do, I admit it from the outset - I didn't expect it to happen nor did I know what to do, it was quite frightening.

You could get my piece of **** Pintara sideways too. And that car was so gutless that flooring it in drive with the handbrake up, it could barely move forward, a burnout was pretty much impossible.

In alot of situations airbags and ABS won't do SFA sure, but then there are situations they can also help quite extensively in. The main reason my mother passed away (3 car head on pile up, her car going about 60, 3 cars hitting her front one after the other at about 80) was her car wasn't airbag equipped. She hit her head on the wheel, was in a coma for a week and a half in intensive care and...

Had the car been airbag equipped, she'd still be here. Had the car been better able to avoid the situation in the first place it would have been even better.

Slow doesn't mean safe. The RTA seems to think it does. They're wrong.

[pHaT`eL]

As a P-Plater, my opinion will probably be looked at as typical, but I cant see the problem with a P-Plater having a hi-po car, no matter what the car is, it will most likely be pushed to its limits by the young guy behind the wheel, whether its a $500 laser or dads brand new GT.
Here in Vic they have the right idea, 125kw per tonne, none of this no turbo/supercharge or v8's stuff goin on in NSW. I mean my EL probably makes more power than some early V8's and even the 'death defying' speed of the Daihatsu Charade turbo is enough to put it on the list of banned cars.
Also, this one passenger restriction after 11pm is stupid, just means there will be twice as many P-Platers on the road, and will tempt them to race at any set of traffic lights.
Thats just my point, take it or leave it..

-pEtE

[MITCHAY]

Sorry to dig up a old thread, but rather than start a new one I thought I would post here.

My brother said to me tonight that his friends got a letter stating they were not allowed to drive turbo or super charged vehicles whilst on their Ps.

This is in the ACT and I have never ever heard a mention of power restrictions in the ACT before. Does anyone know anything about this?

[TEaaron]

Hey!

I got an idea, instead of forcing P platers to drive little eco death traps why not teach them how to drive?