Global platforms are the only way forward

[marcosambrose]

In light of this article:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=57745

And numerous other reports that the next Falcon will not be RWD, i think as hard as it may be to accept - the RWD Falcon is certainly coming to the end of the line.

Now i know certain die hard fans will be up in arms in 5 years time when we get FWD and AWD Taurus' at the dealerships, the pure economics of the current global situation means that special cars like the Australian designed and built Falcon are no longer sustainable.

In europe we see platform sharing virtually everywhere, from the PSA group (i.e Peugeot, Citroen) to Ford, to Fiat, and Audi/VW. Effectivly this trimming of one-off platforms like our Aussie Falcon/Territory means that our favourite car brands can continue on being profitable, although the thought of driving a FWD scares some people.

Just why that is im not too sure why, the latest developments in technology as seen in the new generation A4 and Focus RS indicate that FWD cars can effectivily be as secure and quick to drive as a RWD around a racetrack.

Throw the twin turbo V6 that we are getting in 2010 and the AWD system in the Taurus and you have a boat puller that in on par with any current RWD Falcon.

My point is: Relax, the sky isn't falling, just be cool with whats coming.. im sure it will be quality.

[DayTE]

You probably have a good point there. They may well be world class products. But I for one, and many others do not like, do not enjoy the driving dynamics of a FWD car.
Regardless of how well they are tuned and torque steer is eliminated, they still have terrible characteristics.
I enjoy driving, I enjoy a good road and flowing one corner to the next, RWD lends itself to better for this.
AWD isn't a bad compromise, but rear in my opinion will always be my preference for driving.

[Carby]

Your assertion that a FWD car can go around a track just as fast as RWD is rubbish - just look at the BTCC where the BMW have ballast to slow them down compared to the FWD vehicles even though they are running the same engine sizes.

Anyone who thinks a car that has it's motor, diff and gearbox all up front with a weight bias of 70:30 front to rear, can compete with a RWD car with about 50:50 is vunerable to buying an island south of Australias mainland - the dynamics just don't add up.

If they talk AWD - whats the point? They get rid of RWD because FWD is a lighter why go AWD which is probably a heavier vehicle than either a FWD or RWD vehicle and will suffer fuel usage accordingly.

The Falcon has to stay RWD, managed correctly they can cut down fuel cost on large cars using diesel, LPG or whatever.

If they do make a large FWD I hope they do not call it a Falcon - it will only sully a great brand name.

[Fairlane]

Geez they seem to be softening us up for a FWD Falcon.

I will say unequviocally that I will not buy a FWD Falcon, thats it, NEVER. Ill cross over and buy a Commodore or a superior FWD car.

[Cobra]

If they go FWD then I hope they don't call it a Falcon. If we get AWD TT V6 Tauri's then I may consider one of them. There's no way I'd drive a FWD large car. I just HATE the whole FWD driving dynamics. I'm never buying a Commodore either, even if their sales double with Ford going poop and therefore they have more money to make products even better. I will stick with something Blue Oval as long as it had AWD with TT V8 or even a V8, or alternatively a RWD european. Commodores and FWD Falcons - Australia says no (well I do anyway)!

[GTP owner]

If the fwd handled like a nissan gt-r, the i will buy one. If it handles like a standard audi or subaru (not the rs or sti versions), then i will buy a holden or european car.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

In light of this article:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=57745

And numerous other reports that the next Falcon will not be RWD, i think as hard as it may be to accept - the RWD Falcon is certainly coming to the end of the line.

Now i know certain die hard fans will be up in arms in 5 years time when we get FWD and AWD Taurus' at the dealerships, the pure economics of the current global situation means that special cars like the Australian designed and built Falcon are no longer sustainable.

In europe we see platform sharing virtually everywhere, from the PSA group (i.e Peugeot, Citroen) to Ford, to Fiat, and Audi/VW. Effectivly this trimming of one-off platforms like our Aussie Falcon/Territory means that our favourite car brands can continue on being profitable, although the thought of driving a FWD scares some people.

Just why that is im not too sure why, the latest developments in technology as seen in the new generation A4 and Focus RS indicate that FWD cars can effectivily be as secure and quick to drive as a RWD around a racetrack.

Throw the twin turbo V6 that we are getting in 2010 and the AWD system in the Taurus and you have a boat puller that in on par with any current RWD Falcon.

My point is: Relax, the sky isn't falling, just be cool with whats coming.. im sure it will be quality.

Could that possibly be that some actually like driving a car. Anyone who likes to pretend a FWD can be made to encompass RWD dynamics is delusional.

Speaking for myself I will be "cool" with whets coming. There is nothing anyone can do about it. They will go in the direction they think people will embrace. This black duck won't. Holden / GM will finish Ford in this country in this segment. Ford can expect to sell in similar numbers to the Aurion and as we all know there is no way a FWD Falcon will compare with a rear wheel drive Holden.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Could that possibly be that some actually like driving a car. Anyone who likes to pretend a FWD can be made to encompass RWD dynamics is delusional.

Speaking for myself I will be "cool" with whets coming. There is nothing anyone can do about it. They will go in the direction they think people will embrace. This black duck won't. Holden / GM will finish Ford in this country in this segment. Ford can expect to sell in similar numbers to the Aurion and as we all know there is no way a FWD Falcon will compare with a rear wheel drive Holden.

Some fwd can compare - nissan gt-r, evos, and lambos all deliver the goods handling wise. But modern standard subarus do not. If it were to handle like a mushi front driver then i will jump ship pretty quickly.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

Some fwd can compare - nissan gt-r, evos, and lambos all deliver the goods handling wise. But modern standard subarus do not. If it were to handle like a mushi front driver then i will jump ship pretty quickly.

No they don’t.

For that claim to be true you would have to compare a front and rear wheel drive version of the same car and they don’t exist. What you are saying is that for a FWD car they aren't too bad. Not the same thing

A rear wheel drive GTR will out handle a front wheel drive GTR and so on.

You can’t brake, accelerate and change direction as efficiently through only one set of wheels. It’s simply not possible. It’s very hard to restore balance with brake bias when you are trying to add drive through the same set of wheels

Dynamics in road cars are about compromise. The more tasks you give one dynamic element, the greater the compromise. That’s the truth of FWD. It’s simply a greater compromise.

[marcosambrose]

I said they can be as secure and quick to drive, which translates into 'they are not what they used to be'...

and besides they wouldnt use the FWD for the perfomance versions anyway, the XRs would be AWD and twin turbo.. so the fleets would be pulling around in the FWDs..

so really, would you rather twin turbo AWD with "4-cyl economy" or single turbo RWD like in the current F6?

[Bossxr8]

None of this matters anyway, its pretty easy to see that come 2013 when the Falcon is up for renewal that the sales numbers will never justify the investment needed for a new model, thats whats going to kill it. You can't spend in excess of 800 million dollars and only sell about 3000 a month. I think about 3500-4000 is the break even point, and Falcon can't even get that with a brand new model.

Need to face the real world, Falcon is 90% finished, the numbers just don't add up anymore. Not unless a significant export market can be found or by some miracle that sales somehow increase. But with the talk that the Focus program has been cancelled, if thats true Ford Australia are doomed no matter what, so wether the speculation of wether it will be FWD or not means jack, unless they import the Taurus and badge it as a Falcon, which would be tragic.

[HSE2]

No its 100% finished.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

I said they can be as secure and quick to drive, which translates into 'they are not what they used to be'...

and besides they wouldnt use the FWD for the perfomance versions anyway, the XRs would be AWD and twin turbo.. so the fleets would be pulling around in the FWDs..

so really, would you rather twin turbo AWD with "4-cyl economy" or single turbo RWD like in the current F6?

Current F6 without hesitation.

AWD drive in a large car is next to useless. The specialist AWD manufacturers around the world, especially when it comes to performance, have to employ either a rear bias or a very expensive torque management system.

Audi have only seriously started to challenge BMW and Merc by switching away from 50/50 drive splits

The benefits won't add up and the fact they would have to have rear drive bias characteristic, largely defeats the purpose in a car worth mid thirty to forty k.

Not to mention AWD aren't the most fuel efficient machines going round. I should know. They have been in my family ever since I can remember.

You aren't going to get 4 cylinder economy while you are needlessly driving all four wheels. As I have said before the makers of these type cars are looking at employing on demand systems to reduce drive train drag. Typical of Ford to be 20 years behind in their ideology.

[FPV+fteT3]

If this is the future for OUR car maybe we should all be looking after the ones we own now a well cared for falc will last 20 years +. Rather my BA than any fwd unit dont care what badge it comes with.

[Serial_Fool]

If global trends continue...there WON'T be a large car segment. The Focus will take over as the flagship model and the Falcon will fall into History as one of the best RWD sedans price wise for the driving experience. The Mondeo takes over the role of any large sedan car sales.

Make no mistake, If the best RWD Falcon/ Best designed car in Australia can't sell- what makes you think a similary sized FWD car with crappier dynamics can?

[perthxr6t]

Our Mondeo XR5 may not be RWD but it handles good and is a joy to drive and the interior is better than the FG.

Will my next car be a Mondeo? More than likely it will be....I still have the passion to own a F6 or GT but i can't see the point in blowing anymore coin on the go fast bits to make it go like the clappers.

Ford is a business and they will do what needs to be done to keep the company going or they will go bankrupt like others have done or be taken over by some other car company.

Technology will make these cars better in the future and in 50 or 100 years years time who bloody knows the cars may be doing 300-500kph and they won't be driving on the roads if you get my drift.

Make the most of your beloved Ford now and enjoy it.............Not much point in whinging about it YOU can't stop what lies ahead in the future of car making.

We have come along way since the old man's push button auto Valiant :

So get in your car and go cruising with your mates and have a good time and enjoy it for what it is and have great memories when you get a bit older.

[fmc351]

So maybe the question should be. Ford has dropped the RWD, they only offer a Mondeo as a replacement for the Falcon in a FWD/AWD format, V6 or V6TT no V8. Maybe 5 yrs later they make a 4.5l (whatever) V8 version.

What will you be driving, Ford or *insert other*?

[steamin63]

if ford does go fwd i think i might buy a couple of low milage bf's stick them in the workshop and drive them sparingly [i will always have the xc for weekends].
i'm sorry but anyone who honestly believes that a fwd has equal or superior driving dynamics to a rwd is kidding themselves. drive a magna vrx or an aurion and then jump into an xr6 . case closed.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by fmc351

So maybe the question should be. Ford has dropped the RWD, they only offer a Mondeo as a replacement for the Falcon in a FWD/AWD format, V6 or V6TT no V8. Maybe 5 yrs later they make a 4.5l (whatever) V8 version.

What will you be driving, Ford or *insert other*?

Any local that makes a RWD V8. Failing that any importer still doing business in RWD V8s.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by HSE2

No they don’t.

For that claim to be true you would have to compare a front and rear wheel drive version of the same car and they don’t exist. What you are saying is that for a FWD car they aren't too bad. Not the same thing

A rear wheel drive GTR will out handle a front wheel drive GTR and so on.

You can’t brake, accelerate and change direction as efficiently through only one set of wheels. It’s simply not possible. It’s very hard to restore balance with brake bias when you are trying to add drive through the same set of wheels

Dynamics in road cars are about compromise. The more tasks you give one dynamic element, the greater the compromise. That’s the truth of FWD. It’s simply a greater compromise.

Can someone please explain where I can find a FWD lambo, evolution or GT-R, I thought they were all AWD (lambo RWD too). All of which will out handle any RWD Falcon.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Can someone please explain where I can find a FWD lambo, evolution or GT-R, I thought they were all AWD (lambo RWD too). All of which will out handle any RWD Falcon.

They are. I wasn't interested in the accuracy of the cars mentioned but more so the sentiment that is often expressed in this discussion. It really doesn't matter what the car is, the fact that there is never an alternative drive of the same car makes comparison impossible.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by GTP owner

Some fwd can compare - nissan gt-r, evos, and lambos all deliver the goods handling wise. But modern standard subarus do not. If it were to handle like a mushi front driver then i will jump ship pretty quickly.

HSE2

Actually aimed at the quoted post above, I accidentally hit quote on the wrong post, sorry.

[DayTE]

Originally Posted by fmc351

So maybe the question should be. Ford has dropped the RWD, they only offer a Mondeo as a replacement for the Falcon in a FWD/AWD format, V6 or V6TT no V8. Maybe 5 yrs later they make a 4.5l (whatever) V8 version.

What will you be driving, Ford or *insert other*?

Would have to consider a AWD V6TT. But I'm pretty keen to get back into a V8. So I think I'd head in a European direction. Either the one with the three letters or the one with the four circles.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by Fairlane

I will say unequviocally that I will not buy a FWD Falcon, thats it, NEVER. Ill cross over and buy a Commodore or a superior FWD car.

I'm in the same boat....I'd prefer to go to the dark side than drive a FWD Falcon.

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

I'm in the same boat....I'd prefer to go to the dark side than drive a FWD Falcon.

Unfortunatly I have to aggree.

I'm all for a global platform. I cannot believe that so much effort has gone into producing individual cars like a mondeo and the new FG falcon, only for them to be so close in many respects; size, shape, style etc.

But why why must a global platform only come in FWD? Can't they have a global FWD and a global RWD? Surely Ford will still make RWD cars of some description.

Why can't the Mustang and the Falcon be exactly the same under the bodywork. From all accounts, late model falcons handle better as it is. Yet a whole team is dedicated to making Mustang suspension systems. Kill two birds with one stone.

And why is something like the mondeo dumped on Australia to see if it sells here. Why don't we return the favour and dump some Falcons onto the Euros or the Yanks. I know why... Cause they just might sell.

Rather than Die, why can't the falcon go on a diet. Trim, Taught and Terrific. Ringing any bells here people. Arguably one of the best Falcons of all time, the XY, was a far bit smaller than our current crop of rear drivers. Times change and maybe 3 adults across the back seat isnt such a priority.

Just food for thought

[camfraser]

i got to drive an '08 Chev Impala SS in the US earlier this year; 5.3L V8 and FWD. Went REALLY well... in a straight line

[XR6_190]

Geez, Doom and Gloom around here lately.

The way I see it, Mustang, and the Crown Victoria replacement will need to be RWD (You would think) so why not make the Crown Victoria replacement the next Gen Falcon?

I'm not even suggesting to export to the american market from here, that's not really viable, plus Ford will want to keep producing it in the US, but develop the 1 car as both the Crown Victoria (North America/ Middle East), and the Falcon (Australia and Asia Pacific region) it will still slash R+D costs for our local arm of Ford.

Have the same underpinnings for the Mustang and you could even build that here if it would prove plausible. I mean it wouldn't cost much if it was built off the same platform.

The only reason Falcon will need to go FWD is if there is no ohter RWD platform to use as a basis, so unless Fords entire Passenger car range goes FWD I can't see Falcon doing it.

Remember Ford tried to build a FWD falcon before (Taurus) and a FWD Mustang in the US (Probe) and neither proved successfull. As somebody else said, nobody will buy a FWD Falcon, if their not buying the RWD Falcon now why would they buy an inferior product later?

Australians have proven that they don't like big FWD cars, Avalon, 380 and even Aurion are proof of this.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Geez, Doom and Gloom around here lately.

The way I see it, Mustang, and the Crown Victoria replacement will need to be RWD (You would think) so why not make the Crown Victoria replacement the next Gen Falcon?

I'm not even suggesting to export to the american market from here, that's not really viable, plus Ford will want to keep producing it in the US, but develop the 1 car as both the Crown Victoria (North America/ Middle East), and the Falcon (Australia and Asia Pacific region) it will still slash R+D costs for our local arm of Ford.

Have the same underpinnings for the Mustang and you could even build that here if it would prove plausible. I mean it wouldn't cost much if it was built off the same platform.

The only reason Falcon will need to go FWD is if there is no ohter RWD platform to use as a basis, so unless Fords entire Passenger car range goes FWD I can't see Falcon doing it.

Remember Ford tried to build a FWD falcon before (Taurus) and a FWD Mustang in the US (Probe) and neither proved successfull. As somebody else said, nobody will buy a FWD Falcon, if their not buying the RWD Falcon now why would they buy an inferior product later?

Australians have proven that they don't like big FWD cars, Avalon, 380 and even Aurion are proof of this.

This is dead right and totally logical IMO. There is alot of chat about this issue around the place, and Ford refuses to confirm either way (unlike holden, ford press people don't ramble on about supposed projects but never deliver....).

In essence you are totally correct to assert the crown vic/mustang situation. Ford have needed a new platform for mustang/crown vic for some time (crown vic is getting reall desperate....) but people need to understand that these cars won't be coming out till 2012-2013. Mustang will get new engines soon as will falcon but the actual platforms will be around for some time...

Ford is in effect working out if they even need a crown vic in 2012+ or mustang for that matter. Its not like they would make a FWD mustang.....or falcon. Even 5 years ago alot of people would have laughed themselves silly over a diesel or V6 falcon...well V6 is confirmed and diesel was considered (and will be in territory). It aint easy working it out that far ahead and big bucks is riding on it so you need to get it right. My view is that if you were a betting man you'd say that Ford will need at least one global RWD platform (for crown vic, mustang, falcon, territory, explorer etc.). A mid-large monocoque platform that is affordable, flexible and advanced enough is what is needed....funny that, sounds like flacon to me.

If GRWD doesn't happen (and ford abandons those markets) then falcon will dissapear....it will be mondeos as the local family car. FWD falcon won't happen because if it did, it wouldn't be a called a Falcon!!!!

[IDT]

Originally Posted by marcosambrose

In light of this article:

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=57745

And numerous other reports that the next Falcon will not be RWD, i think as hard as it may be to accept - the RWD Falcon is certainly coming to the end of the line.

Now i know certain die hard fans will be up in arms in 5 years time when we get FWD and AWD Taurus' at the dealerships, the pure economics of the current global situation means that special cars like the Australian designed and built Falcon are no longer sustainable.

In europe we see platform sharing virtually everywhere, from the PSA group (i.e Peugeot, Citroen) to Ford, to Fiat, and Audi/VW. Effectivly this trimming of one-off platforms like our Aussie Falcon/Territory means that our favourite car brands can continue on being profitable, although the thought of driving a FWD scares some people.

Just why that is im not too sure why, the latest developments in technology as seen in the new generation A4 and Focus RS indicate that FWD cars can effectivily be as secure and quick to drive as a RWD around a racetrack.

Throw the twin turbo V6 that we are getting in 2010 and the AWD system in the Taurus and you have a boat puller that in on par with any current RWD Falcon.

My point is: Relax, the sky isn't falling, just be cool with whats coming.. im sure it will be quality.

O.K. Nice in theory but have you ever tried towing anything with any real weight with an AWD vehicle?

Anyone who owns a caravan, trailer or boat is screwed, and thats not to mention the aussie ute.

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by WAForce8

O.K. Nice in theory but have you ever tried towing anything with any real weight with an AWD vehicle?

Anyone who owns a caravan, trailer or boat is screwed, and thats not to mention the aussie ute.

Anyone serious about towing doesnt have a Falcon or Commodore. The ones I see towing anything over a 6 x 4 have there *** dragging a few inches off the road. Much better vehicles out there.