Global Warming

[ltd]

OK, we've all heard alot about it, now who believes/disbelieves it.

This is not at all political and should not reference any political party or leaning.

I myself, don't believe it to be real.

[ltd]

I should qualify, the reason I ask this is because in the USA and here I am constantly reminded that "over 90% of the worlds population believe it". I didn't think the number was that high.

[platinumXR]

We cannot be pumping out so many toxins and not be effecting the environment in SOME way, shape or form.

[platinumXR]

Probably 80% I would say...slitting hairs I know.

Lot's of people are refusing to believe it now just for the sake of not believing it...just to be rebellious or something apparently...or they just don't like Bob.

[beaver700]

The biggest hoax ever perpetrated on the earth. Man made droughts and floods are nonsense. The media portray it like it is fact, and most people believe exactly what the media tell you. Someone is getting rich anyway...

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by beaver700

The biggest hoax ever perpetrated on the earth. Man made droughts and floods are nonsense. The media portray it like it is fact, and most people believe exactly what the media tell you. Someone is getting rich anyway...

I dunno if I would call it a hoax - it extreme...perhaps just misinformed? Can't say as I blame people for wanting to pay attention to what we are doing to the planet.

If we ARE affecting the planet detrimentally, would it not be prudent to pay attention to that and perhaps minimize the impact or reverse the damage if possible?

JMHO.

[Bad Bird]

My opinion - the people who don't believe in it have that opinion because they are sick of it being rammed down their throats. However, with access to good scientific journals, it is very easy to see the unnatural upwards heating trend.

The average Joe Public knows nigh-on stuff-all about meteorology and physics and their opinion on this topic means exactly bupkis.

[flappist]

The question is:

If there is a problem HOW IS IT GOING TO BE FIXED BY A TAXATION SYSTEM?

[balthazarr]

I'm still in two minds... sure, we're pumping out greenhouse gases at unprecedented levels - does this have an effect? Probably. But, how much of the warming is man-made, and how much of it just part of the natural cycle of ice age/warming/ice age/warming?

Even if the earth is warming, is this such a bad thing? I'd think most of us (particularly the Northern Hemisphere) would prefer warming (even with more frequent/powerful storms, rising sea levels etc.), than an ice age.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

My opinion - the people who don't believe in it have that opinion because they are sick of it being rammed down their throats. However, with access to good scientific journals, it is very easy to see the unnatural upwards heating trend.

The average Joe Public knows nigh-on stuff-all about meteorology and physics and their opinion on this topic means exactly bupkis.

And how would we know?

We have been able to observe the planet for maybe 100 years, before that almost everything is anecdotal.

No one has yet explained the major ice ages, the mini ice age 500 years ago, the mini global hotwave that allowed tropical jungles in europe a few hundred years ago, the change in temp caused by 1 volcano a few years ago that was greater than any other recorded change etc etc.

Al Gore is a failed politician who has found a band wagon to push and make himself famous.
We have one of those here you know, a failed local council politician who started his own little crucade to make himself famous. You may have heard of him, Harold Scruby......

[vztrt]

This was posted in the other climate change thread. So here's something for the discussion.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

I'm still in two minds... sure, we're pumping out greenhouse gases at unprecedented levels - does this have an effect? Probably. But, how much of the warming is man-made, and how much of it just part of the natural cycle of ice age/warming/ice age/warming?

Yeah, that's what I am saying. "We" as a species...remove trees, strip mine, increasingly populate, produce excessive amounts of waste etc. etc. etc. do all this stuff to prevent the planet from "healing", probably at a greater pace than we pollute it...so...maybe we are causing it, maybe.

As Bad Bird suggests: I am not a rocket surgeon or an internerd so my knowledge and opinion on this is limited. BUT...I am mechanically dextrous and minimally schooled in physics and chemistry ENOUGH to know that what we ARE doing cannot be good for the planet in the long term if we don't ease up or change some things.

Listen to me...I sound like a tree hugger...

[onfire]

I for one believe it. I'm not completely ignorant and disbelieve all of the facts. But I for one, do not believe global warming is caused primarily by human influence.

There are facts to support this is a natural process, that being the heating and cooling of the Earth's temp. over the course of millions of years. The scare campaigns, the shock and awe propaganda, I believe are designed to sell an idea, an opinion, and to make money. On one extreme, you could almost compare it to religion. Bloated and exaggerated ideas and messages, presented in such a way to influence and some times dictate people's lives and beliefs. Again, a concept used to make already powerful men, more powerful.

With reports of cooling in recent years, its funny how " global warming " is now conservativly titled " climate change " and a once significant topic and cause for alarm is constantly put on the back burner when it comes to real issues.

I do support the idea of a greener future. To put it simply, if you could make your car run as effective, powerful and as clean as possible you would, the same should apply to the infrustrature and systems that power and aid our community.

On the topic of Australia. Who would have thought, a continent prone to extreme drought, with an ever increasing population and an inept political system would run into trouble in regards to water?

[Fev]

I feel the same as PlatinumXR..

What are your thought's on Climate Change though..

[anto]

when it was metioned that temps were increasing on Mars concurrently it got my attention.
The more you look into it and see that there are a lot of geologists and scientists that say its a natural cycle,...and after looking at both sides, thats where I tend to lean. There are too many powerful people with a vested interest in the man made global warming theory for my liking, no I think theres something insidious playing out behind the scenes. All this Carbon credits BS (ie. biggest tax increase in history) and financial meltodown all points toward a global currency/tax system. Sounds like a bad conspiracy story I know but thats how it looks to me.

best thing for everyone to do is look closely at both arguments, I hate the "debate is over" crowd... why dont they want an open discussion on it ? IM tired of constantly getting bombarded with catch phrases like "eco" and "green blah blah"...dont kid yourselves there is a huge industry developing on the back of all this

[onfire]

"Carbon Footprint" - dont try to guilt me on a individual and personal level.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by platinumXR

... "We" as a species.....increasingly populate...

That there is the problem (to most things).

Too many people using too many resources for it to ever be sustainable.

About time we woke up to the root cause of the problems and stop just treating the symptoms, but that makes people rich ;)

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by onfire

I for one believe it. I'm not completely ignorant and disbelieve all of the facts. But I for one, do not believe global warming is caused primarily by human influence.

There are facts to support this is a natural process, that being the heating and cooling of the Earth's temp. over the course of millions of years. The scare campaigns, the shock and awe propaganda, I believe are designed to sell an idea, an opinion, and to make money. On one extreme, you could almost compare it to religion. Bloated and exaggerated ideas and messages, presented in such a way to influence and some times dictate people's lives and beliefs. Again, a concept used to make already powerful men, more powerful.

With reports of cooling in recent years, its funny how " global warming " is now conservativly titled " climate change " and a once significant topic and cause for alarm is constantly put on the back burner when it comes to real issues.

True and good point. I guess the natural cycle continues unabated...but are "we" modifying it? Exacerbating other effects, that in turn effect it?

The climate changes regardless, that much is evident and I guess a lot of the tree huggers get all foamy at the mouth about it because they just don't want to wreck the place, I guess.

More internerding and research is needed I suspect.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by Raptor

That there is the problem (to most things).

Too many people using too many resources for it to ever be sustainable.

About time we woke up to the root cause of the problems and stop just treating the symptoms, but that makes people rich ;)

Yeah, too true as well. I guess like a lot of other things we humans are guilty of not doing: taking responsibility for our actions is also one of them.

[Polyal]

yeah hard topic. I think we contribute, albeit very small amounts. Surely you dont have to be an expert to acknowledge that the earth will go through cycles like everything else.

I think its good that there are people that think its 100% our fault, without the discussion we wouldn't even bother looking at bettering our processes. Unfortunately there are always groups that take it to far.

[ltd]

CO2 or other gases commonly associated with the carbons only comprise a total of 0.038% or 380 parts per million, and in previous times of higher concentration (up to 40,000ppm) life on earth has flourished, would you not agree that we need to have some clear, open and honest debate?
What I am getting at here is that as flappist and others correctly identified, there are far too many vested interests pushing this barrow.
One thing to remember here is that CO2, the very same gas blamed for global warming is heavier than nitrogen or oxygen, and therefore tends to sink down to earth rather than reach the upper mesosphere where it is alleged to be doing damage.

[FGII-XR6]

the earth goes through cycles of cooling and warming and this is what has been observed ( a natural cycle) the last 10 years there has been a global decrease in temperature of 0.6 degrees( a significant drop in the scheme of things) but the "global warming" Nazis won't let that get in the way of a good scare campaign , there was snow in Baghdad recently for the first time ever what more evidence do we need.
We need to look at and take notice of historic temperature trends and act accordingly instead of following like sheep . the global temperature was significantly higher in 1900 than it is today ( but the world is getting warmer ???????) . this madness must stop now before the global economy is destroyed with carbon trading schemes which will be ignored by china and many 3rd world nations ( they will thrive with no restraints )

[calais]

Originally Posted by ltd

CO2 or other gases commonly associated with the carbons only comprise a total of 0.038% or 380 parts per million, and in previous times of higher concentration (up to 40,000ppm) life on earth has flourished, would you not agree that we need to have some clear, open and honest debate?
What I am getting at here is that as flappist and others correctly identified, there are far too many vested interests pushing this barrow.
One thing to remember here is that CO2, the very same gas blamed for global warming is heavier than nitrogen or oxygen, and therefore tends to sink down to earth rather than reach the upper mesosphere where it is alleged to be doing damage.

I agree, and I would also like to add that simply, There is going to be no catastrophic events in either your or my lifetime as a direct result of this supposed climate change, I believe it to have become a gravy train, that is to say, a money making tool to be used upon the unaware by the elected governments of the western world. The politics of climate change have also been discarded by the worlds two great emerging powers and centres of population growth, India and China, who now contribute more "greenhouse gaes" to the atmosphere than every other developed nation on earth combined.

Now can anyone answer me on how taxing Industry (the consumer inevitably) via kyoto protocols and other such agreements, will save the planet, put the dead dinosaurs back underground, remove the hot air from the atmosphere which appears to be coming from parliament house, and then magically go against all scientific fact about the earths natural temperature fluctuations, will help the world in any measurable way?

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by flappist

The question is:

If there is a problem HOW IS IT GOING TO BE FIXED BY A TAXATION SYSTEM?

Never underestimate the policy effects of a change in taxation... they don't have to enact new areas of law, or implement new government bodies - all they have to do is provide tax breaks for certain industries and extra tax burdens for others. If you have to pay $0.10 for every dollar doing one thing, and $0.60 for every dollar doing another - which are you going to choose?

[calais]

Originally Posted by balthazarr

Never underestimate the policy effects of a change in taxation... they don't have to enact new areas of law, or implement new government bodies - all they have to do is provide tax breaks for certain industries and extra tax burdens for others. If you have to pay $0.10 for every dollar doing one thing, and $0.60 for every dollar doing another - which are you going to choose?

Ok, so by that logic, you tax the minority, who are under the jackboot of democracy who have been dictating false propaganda (I dont use that word lightly). All the while the worlds greatest contributors to world emissions continue to emit at record levels, without any such fiscal restraint as the emissions trading scheme and carbon offset scheme as proposed in Australia.

WHY would you tax hard working Australian businesses, who already have a hard enough time supporting what is left of the manufacturing industry which has now dwindled into an over complicated, red tape nightmare. Why would you invest where it is obviously harder to make a profit under such schemes?

Such emissions trading schemes, and their associated propaganda which will supposedly assist in reducing Climate Change have no net effect in either truth or science. And as such will exist only to line government coffers.

[Green X]

Do I believe in it, well yes and no, My uncle will argue yes being a Environmental scientist, and is quite a senior Authority on the subject would talk us all under the table with out even batting a eye lid (his name has been mentioned a bit in the media when this Climate change stuff arises)

Do i think the CPRS will do anything HELL NO and i got a good mate who works in government and is also a Environmental scientist who's says the same thing about the CPRS.

Basically the stuff they need to do to make a difference they won't cause it will cost too much money. So once agine they do a band aid fix that takes money of average Joe public pocket insted in TAX, The big polluting company's or the ones that can afford the CPRS cost get a almost free ride, the ones that carn't go broke or just move over seas to say India, We the Public get B/S 'ed into believing something positive it being done when in-fact it's not!

How are country's like China meant to reduce emissions by say 20% with the Large Industrial industry they have........... so if they carn't comply how is Australia who contribute like 2% globally to emissions having a reduction of 20% going to even make a splash in the global pond!!

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by onfire

I for one believe it. I'm not completely ignorant and disbelieve all of the facts. But I for one, do not believe global warming is caused primarily by human influence.

There are facts to support this is a natural process, that being the heating and cooling of the Earth's temp. over the course of millions of years. The scare campaigns, the shock and awe propaganda, I believe are designed to sell an idea, an opinion, and to make money. On one extreme, you could almost compare it to religion. Bloated and exaggerated ideas and messages, presented in such a way to influence and some times dictate people's lives and beliefs. Again, a concept used to make already powerful men, more powerful.

With reports of cooling in recent years, its funny how " global warming " is now conservativly titled " climate change " and a once significant topic and cause for alarm is constantly put on the back burner when it comes to real issues.

I do support the idea of a greener future. To put it simply, if you could make your car run as effective, powerful and as clean as possible you would, the same should apply to the infrustrature and systems that power and aid our community.

On the topic of Australia. Who would have thought, a continent prone to extreme drought, with an ever increasing population and an inept political system would run into trouble in regards to water?

Totally agree

[MONSOON]

True or not, if Australia stopped 100% of it's emmisions now, it would not stop global warming (India & China would soon make up the difference anyway), the whole thing looks to me like a international contest to see who can be SEEN to be doing something(while achieving nothing), I'm not against trying to improve emissions, but a TAX scheme is NOT the answer.

[balthazarr]

Originally Posted by calais

Ok, so by that logic, you tax the minority, who are under the jackboot of democracy who have been dictating false propaganda (I dont use that word lightly). All the while the worlds greatest contributors to world emissions continue to emit at record levels, without any such fiscal restraint as the emissions trading scheme and carbon offset scheme as proposed in Australia.

WHY would you tax hard working Australian businesses, who already have a hard enough time supporting what is left of the manufacturing industry which has now dwindled into an over complicated, red tape nightmare. Why would you invest where it is obviously harder to make a profit under such schemes?

Such emissions trading schemes, and their associated propaganda which will supposedly assist in reducing Climate Change have no net effect in either truth or science. And as such will exist only to line government coffers.

I didn't say I agree with using a tax to implement policy, but the reality is, taxation - and any associated concessions, exemptions, impositions etc. - has an effect on consumer's and especially business' behaviour. Just look at the Medicare Levy/Private Health Insurance rebate as an example... here there's a carrot (30% off your insurance premium), together with a stick (extra tax payable if you don't have private insurance and earn over a certain amount)... together, they're quite effective at 'encouraging' take up of private health insurance.

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by MONSOON

True or not, if Australia stopped 100% of it's emmisions now, it would not stop global warming (India & China would soon make up the difference anyway), the whole thing looks to me like a international contest to see who can be SEEN to be doing something(while achieving nothing), I'm not against trying to improve emissions, but a TAX scheme is NOT the answer.

To understand how big emitters we are to the world, here is an example;
I go outside an office back door, and there are 200 cigarette butts on the ground. I pick up 3 butts. Gee, I really made a huge difference, and it is a lot cleaner now.:
That is how Australia is, if we all pack up and leave.