Raise drinking/driving age to 21?

[Franco Cozzo]

I noticed in another thread some people mentioned raising the drinking/driving age to 21.

About the drinking age, theres kids at the highschool I used to go to who start drinking as early as year 9, 14/15 year olds, what would raising the drinking age do, really? It might keep it out of the honest 18 year old but everyone else will just get their older friend/brother/sister to buy it for them?

Discuss.

[Giant Cranium]

stupid idea. it will just move the ages up 3 years so instead of 18 year olds dieing 21 year olds will take there place.

[Keepleft]

Not heard a peep here in NSW politically, it won't happen.

What might, could be a P1 gained at age 19, at most, and with mild adjustment to tiers.

If we did the age 21 bit for grog and license, we'd have the dumb situation where young men could be called up, or otherwise join the ADF and find them selves on a front line, but gee, 'ya can't drive ya dildo'.

Johnson, Monash- shows quite clearly the brain is not mature enough, really, in a 17yo, even when compared to an 18yo. Not fully developed until one is 25.

Explains why some young fellas in particular have trouble. Future directions will likely adust things in that direction.

[Charliewool]

What about LOWERING the driving age?
With strict conditions... NO passengers full stop, Low LOW H.P cars. Even speed limited. Plus naturally being under 18 ZERO BA.
NZ is/used to be, I think 16.. I think Sth Oz was 16 or 17 too?
Maybe some experience before your (legally) frequenting pubs, clubs etc and without peer-pressures could be an answer?
I remember turning 18.. 1st stop was licence, closely followed by celebrations down the local.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by charliewool

What about LOWERING the driving age?
With strict conditions... NO passengers full stop, Low LOW H.P cars. Even speed limited. Plus naturally being under 18 ZERO BA.
NZ is/used to be, I think 16.

a) AUS needs no road safety lesson from NZ, although EU road items like hatched intersections, coloured bus lanes, left yellow solid lines, are trialled in NZ first,- before being adopted by AUS and Pacific Island countries.

b) We have restrictions now - they are ignored by a certain calibre of immature brain developed people, seriously, see Johnston. So for two reasons, 1, they'll ignore restriction, and 2, to allow more time for the brain to mature, and in doing so reduce conflict, a reduced P2 license age and therefore full license progress - won't happen so soon.

You Might however, along with (2), see the Learner license issued a little earlier.

Clarify (a) if I might, NZ uses many, many more proper international road traffic signs held in Convention, incl its speed restriction sign, if anything AUS should do so as well.

The 'parties' will leave it to the agency experts..... as usual.

[jcxr]

Originally Posted by charliewool

What about LOWERING the driving age?
With strict conditions... NO passengers full stop, Low LOW H.P cars. Even speed limited. Plus naturally being under 18 ZERO BA.
NZ is/used to be, I think 16.. I think Sth Oz was 16 or 17 too?
Maybe some experience before your (legally) frequenting pubs, clubs etc and without peer-pressures could be an answer?
I remember turning 18.. 1st stop was licence, closely followed by celebrations down the local.

Great ideas Charlie, and what about the old loss of licence on ANY offence on your "P's". Maybe double demerit for an alcohol related offence.
My kids know of the young blokes wiped out in the crash in Mill Park, went to the same school, but in different years. Their opinions are this was always going to happen. But there MUST be ways that this can be solved. Police prescence is non existant around the area, except when the wallopers get "T" boned in a Maccas carpark.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by jcxr

Great ideas Charlie, and what about the old loss of licence on ANY offence on your "P's". Maybe double demerit for an alcohol related offence.
My kids know of the young blokes wiped out in the crash in Mill Park, went to the same school, but in different years. Their opinions are this was always going to happen. But there MUST be ways that this can be solved. Police prescence is non existant around the area, except when the wallopers get "T" boned in a Maccas carpark.

Im becoming more and more convinced the ONLY thing that will work is peer pressure and good parenting, and if that means taking the keys away from your kid for a week to teach them a lesson so be it... love can be tough some times.
We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.

[kezzer]

Would be pointless and dumb, year 12 most people turn 18, gives them time to get their license so work and uni won't be an issue after they leave school. It would take me 3 hours to get to work via public transport if I had to wait till i was 21, instead of 25 minutes. People would be less inclined to get a job, putting further strain on centerlink and the economy in general. Not to mention public transport as it is in Vic is **********, totally unreliable.

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im becoming more and more convinced the ONLY thing that will work is peer pressure and good parenting, and if that means taking the keys away from your kid for a week to teach them a lesson so be it... love can be tough some times.
We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.

Totally agree mate, very well said

[xtremerus]

I'll be showing my age here, but I got my licence at 16, but could have got it at 15, in NZ, at that time. The drinking age at that time was 20. More learning time to drive, before alcohol should be involved. There is merit in a greater gap of driver/drinker age. At the moment, we currently have a gap of 1 year.
Maybe something to think about.

[ED Classic]

The only thing it would have meant on this occasion was that instead of this 19yo being nearly 4 times over the limit he would have been xx times over the limit. It would NOT have changed the bottom line; .19

[pauljh74]

The recent events have triggered discussions like this one and others. "Raise driving/drinking age". You have someone who, despite being unable to drink and drive at all legally, ended up with a 0.19 BAC, drove at excessive speed and in an unsafe manner and crashed. There are laws in place and he broke a number of them. Underage drinking is already happening, so how will raising the age to 21 stop it? Increasing restrictions as a knee-jerk reaction won't stop those who break these existing laws from breaking them and only penalises those who have done the right thing.
"Been a good boy and driven only at 0.00 BAC?"
"Never drunk before 18?"
"Well, you'll have to wait 3 more years, while the idiots will continue doing what they want."

Many of the cases we read about talk about how the driver had already lost their licence, was drunk/high/stoned, had extra restrictions as a result of previous offences and still went out doing all the wrong things. I believe a day or 2 after the Mill Park incident, a 17 year old girl unlicensed and drunk crashed a Magna, even after reading about the other incident.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/dru...-1225821406936

How does increasing restrictions stop someone breaking existing laws? For starters, the penalties for repeat serious offences need to be implemented in full or increased. Caught driving while suspended 3 times? Jail. Drunk as well when caught? Double the penalty. The courts keep extending the licence ban, despite them being there for ignoring it, and the offender keeps driving. Gee, great deterrent.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im becoming more and more convinced the ONLY thing that will work is peer pressure and good parenting, and if that means taking the keys away from your kid for a week to teach them a lesson so be it... love can be tough some times.
We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.

We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.....,
4vman, this is the point exactly!!!!
this obviously is a "real time "thread, but if, for example, this was actually Sat. night 1am... put your hands up those who would,..... know where their teenage, P plated, under drinking age kids were ...., have their mates phone numbers,.... and there mates parents phone numbers,.... and were phoning them to find out if they were having a good time ,how far off were they , who's driving......???
My guess is I'd get a lot of "of course we do "responses,I'd also get a lot of "control freak" responses, but I hope more than anything ,there are a lot of people saying to themselves, "**********, i HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE, IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN"

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by jcxr

Great ideas Charlie, and what about the old loss of licence on ANY offence on your "P's". Maybe double demerit for an alcohol related offence.
My kids know of the young blokes wiped out in the crash in Mill Park, went to the same school, but in different years. Their opinions are this was always going to happen. But there MUST be ways that this can be solved. Police prescence is non existant around the area, except when the wallopers get "T" boned in a Maccas carpark.

I think for minor offences, then it should just be as it is. Minor as in failing to giveway or even a parking ticket. A major offence such as any trace of alcohol in the blood, speeding by more than a certain number of k's over etc etc, then they should be treated more harshly. They lose their licence for 12 months minimum.

Repeat offenders should have a date with the morgue to see first hand what their indiscretions on the roads can cause. If they doesn't knock any sense into them, then onto a list for the police to come see them the next time they have news to give to the family about the death of a family member on the road caused by a speeding / drunk diver. Make the offender give the news, see first hand the impact it has on families. Might just be all thats needed.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.....,
4vman, this is the point exactly!!!!
this obviously is a "real time "thread, but if, for example, this was actually Sat. night 1am... put your hands up those who would,..... know where their teenage, P plated, under drinking age kids were ...., have their mates phone numbers,.... and there mates parents phone numbers,.... and were phoning them to find out if they were having a good time ,how far off were they , who's driving......???
My guess is I'd get a lot of "of course we do "responses,I'd also get a lot of "control freak" responses, but I hope more than anything ,there are a lot of people saying to themselves, "**********, i HAVEN'T GOT A CLUE, IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN"

I will when my girls are at that age, my parents did, my wifes parents did... parenting is often a reflection of upbringing.. its a domino effect...
The fact that a 15 year old girl was out at 2am is a good enough indication things are a miss at home.....
Ironically she was the only one in the car who wasnt of an age to know better too, fortunately she survived.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im becoming more and more convinced the ONLY thing that will work is peer pressure and good parenting, and if that means taking the keys away from your kid for a week to teach them a lesson so be it... love can be tough some times.
We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.

The problem is the mates who still have a key to a car!

But yes it might help to educate them at home. Do a driver training course as father and son. Take a car to the track / skid pan, and get it out of the system etc etc.

[GTpilot]

Holding a license is a privelige, NOT a RIGHT, so...
I believe in lowering the driving age to 16, with at least the following restrictions.

1).00 BAC until 21, car must have interlock device.
2)Be restricted to driving a normally asperated vehicle under 2L capacity, NO EXCEPTIONS. (and don't give me that, I need to "tow a trailer" cause I'm a traidie BS, most of you are still apprentices anyway, get to boss to cart ya tools or....... Just buy a Van. eg hiace or transit. etc)
3)1 passenger allowed.
4) P plates are integrated into special number plates for primary registered vehicle.
5) after 12-18 months of being licensed, driver must complete defensive and advanced drived ed course and PASS both a written and practical test based on these courses to show they have learnt something. (done duing course), otherwise license will be revoked.

once 5 yr probationary period is served a further practical and theroy test MUST be passed to become full license holder.
perhaps harsh yes, but as I said, too many people take holding a license as a right, not a PRIVELIDGE.

Just my opinion anyway..... :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by jgb

Holding a license is a privelige, NOT a RIGHT, so...
I believe in lowering the driving age to 16, with at least the following restrictions.

1).00 BAC until 21, car must have interlock device.
2)Be restricted to driving a normally asperated vehicle under 2L capacity, NO EXCEPTIONS. (and don't give me that, I need to "tow a trailer" cause I'm a traidie BS, most of you are still apprentices anyway, get to boss to cart ya tools or....... Just buy a Van. eg hiace or transit. etc)
3)1 passenger allowed.
4) P plates are integrated into special number plates for primary registered vehicle.
5) after 12-18 months of being licensed, driver must complete defensive and advanced drived ed course and PASS both a written and practical test based on these courses to show they have learnt something. (done duing course), otherwise license will be revoked.

once 5 yr probationary period is served a further practical and theroy test MUST be passed to become full license holder.
perhaps harsh yes, but as I said, too many people take holding a license as a right, not a PRIVELIDGE.

Just my opinion anyway..... :

All great ideas if people comply... but the mill pk bloke was driving unregistered and ignoring BAC limits, ignoring driver passenger restrictions and speed limits.... if they dont follow the rules the rules are pointless......

[RIPGMH]

No amount of legislation is going to stop some tool and his mates doing stupid speeds, in stupid areas under the influence of drugs or alcohol. No matter what age, what car or what plate is on his car, you can't legislate against the laws of physics. All the best to those who try to at least reduce the incident rate but that is all we can hope to achieve.

[GTpilot]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

All great ideas if people comply... but the mill pk bloke was driving unregistered and ignoring BAC limits, ignoring driver passenger restrictions and speed limits.... if they dont follow the rules the rules are pointless......

Refer point 1.
But yes, I agree, There is a lot of it that needs come down to enforcement, especially from the parents and peers. but the thing is. many of these clowns are they way they are because their parents and friends are just a brainless as them. So what can you do? at this point darwin has to intercept.

[RIPGMH2009]

wont stop kids sneaking a drink wont stop kids crashing cars does nothing to solve the real problem between the ears

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Stefan

The problem is the mates who still have a key to a car!

But yes it might help to educate them at home. Do a driver training course as father and son. Take a car to the track / skid pan, and get it out of the system etc etc.

I was about to say "yeah ,you're right, it's the mates problem", but the real truth is it's also the mates mates problem. Take the keys off him, knock him and his prospective passengers out, call the cops, I don't know, just do what you need to do to not let this happen.
I had 100+ kids at my daughters post grad high school party in my back yard a couple of years ago and all those who drove were not allowed in till I had the keys locked away to be picked up when they came to pick up the cars the next day.
(cops came 2 or 3 times for loud noise and music at 3 or 4am, but no-one left with 5 passengers, pi$$ed, and ended up in the horror these kids did
Ps.. That doesn't make me a martyr, it just means there are things we can do as parents to alleviate this madness.

[Archilino]

Perhaps a stronger deterent? Brumby mentioned crushing or selling cars, make the law simple: If a p plater is caught 25 or 30 over the limit their car WILL be crushed. No ifs or buts.

Alot of drivers get car loans, imagine paying off a 20k loan you get caught excessively speeding and your car is crushed into a cube. Im sure the bank will still want its repayment regardless...IMO a huge deterent.

[JACK250]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.....,
4vman, this is the point exactly!!!!

Good in theory, but not sure if you have noticed most of the parents of the kids that run amok are dead set ferals themselves

[Silver Ghia]

Seems these days parents aren't held responsible at all for what their kids get up to. And the media never mention this point either, only the sympathetic sentiments when their child gets injured or killed when doing something stupid, then its always someone elses fault.

Perhaps if parents are held more responsible, after all they bring them into the world, they may then take more of an interest and maybe even start educating their kids to be better citizens and help keep them out of trouble.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im becoming more and more convinced the ONLY thing that will work is peer pressure and good parenting, and if that means taking the keys away from your kid for a week to teach them a lesson so be it... love can be tough some times.
We cant sit back complacently waiting for someone else such as the police or govt to take responsibility and do our jobs for us.

I agree , You just need to read the paper ,listen to the radio and all these people are calling for a ban on this and a ban on that .

The goverment cant be responsible for everything . All this sort of thing does is affect the people that are allready being responsible .

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by JACK250

Good in theory, but not sure if you have noticed most of the parents of the kids that run amok are dead set ferals themselves

Jack250..... my point exactly.. change the parents, you change the kids,.. "ferals" are only "ferals" because they know no different, they haven't been taught.
What a great place then ,is this forum to educate!!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jgb

Holding a license is a privelige, NOT a RIGHT, so...
I believe in lowering the driving age to 16, with at least the following restrictions.

1).00 BAC until 21, car must have interlock device.
2)Be restricted to driving a normally asperated vehicle under 2L capacity, NO EXCEPTIONS. (and don't give me that, I need to "tow a trailer" cause I'm a traidie BS, most of you are still apprentices anyway, get to boss to cart ya tools or....... Just buy a Van. eg hiace or transit. etc)
3)1 passenger allowed.
4) P plates are integrated into special number plates for primary registered vehicle.
5) after 12-18 months of being licensed, driver must complete defensive and advanced drived ed course and PASS both a written and practical test based on these courses to show they have learnt something. (done duing course), otherwise license will be revoked.

once 5 yr probationary period is served a further practical and theroy test MUST be passed to become full license holder.
perhaps harsh yes, but as I said, too many people take holding a license as a right, not a PRIVELIDGE.

Just my opinion anyway..... :

Agree with everything but the alcohol interlock. You have to blow into it every 5 minutes or it'll completely shut off the car on you, then you can kiss power assisted brakes and power steering goodbye. Plus you can do what my aunty does and gets my cousin to blow into it for her so the car will start when shes tanked.

[mrbaxr6t]

I am one that supports the drinking age going up to 21 for several reasons, I have read much on the maturing process of the male brain and that risk portion completely overrides logic portion of brain till mid 20s this lopsidedness of risk over logic has begun to change by the age of 21 so you have kids yes but they are less likely to take risks, and <hopefully> will behave less irrationally somewhat.

Also the drinking age was 21 here way back when, but when conscription was introduced and the age was 18 the argument was made that if you are old enough to fight and die then you are old enough to consume alcohol, at the time it was said that after conscription finished the drinking age would return to 21, yet it never has been returned to 21.

I am tired of seeing the things that they do to each other and the risks they take and I strongly feel that a raise to 21 will stop this happening as generally 21 + year old people while intoxicated can and will on average be easier to control and will be less violent toward each other.

seeing some of the objects they have used to injure each other stupidly and wind up in an ambulance I just could not see a 21+ year old doing.

[UNR8D]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

The recent events have triggered discussions like this one and others. "Raise driving/drinking age". You have someone who, despite being unable to drink and drive at all legally, ended up with a 0.19 BAC, drove at excessive speed and in an unsafe manner and crashed. There are laws in place and he broke a number of them. Underage drinking is already happening, so how will raising the age to 21 stop it? Increasing restrictions as a knee-jerk reaction won't stop those who break these existing laws from breaking them and only penalises those who have done the right thing.
"Been a good boy and driven only at 0.00 BAC?"
"Never drunk before 18?"
"Well, you'll have to wait 3 more years, while the idiots will continue doing what they want."

Many of the cases we read about talk about how the driver had already lost their licence, was drunk/high/stoned, had extra restrictions as a result of previous offences and still went out doing all the wrong things. I believe a day or 2 after the Mill Park incident, a 17 year old girl unlicensed and drunk crashed a Magna, even after reading about the other incident.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/dru...-1225821406936

How does increasing restrictions stop someone breaking existing laws? For starters, the penalties for repeat serious offences need to be implemented in full or increased. Caught driving while suspended 3 times? Jail. Drunk as well when caught? Double the penalty. The courts keep extending the licence ban, despite them being there for ignoring it, and the offender keeps driving. Gee, great deterrent.

my thoughts exactly.