E85 Roll Out Begins

[csv8]

E85 ethanol roll-out
By Paul GoverHerald Sun04 June 2010
The arrival of E85 at Caltex pumps is not the end of the ethanol story, as GM Holden and Caltex are also part of a six-way consortium which plans to begin making ethanol fuel in Australia from rubbish.
A growing number of ethanol-focused new cars, including the Series II update of the Holden Commodore in October, has sparked an E85 push in Australia.

Caltex has just committed to install E85 ethanol pumps at 100 service stations in a little over 12 months, becoming the first mainstream fuel company to make a move on E85.


It will begin the roll-out with 30 metropolitan and regional stations in time for the arrival of the VEII, joining about 400 stations which currently sell E10 fuel. The E85 fuel - already used in V8 Supercar racing as part of a green push - is made to a world standard and 70-85 per cent ethanol.

In contrast, E10 has only 10 per cent ethanol content. The difference with ethanol is that it is an alcohol fuel made from plant material and not a petroleum-based fossil fuel. But the arrival of E85 at Caltex pumps is not the end of the ethanol story, as GM Holden and Caltex are also part of a six-way consortium - with Veolia, Mitsui, Coskata and the Victorian government - which plans to begin making ethanol fuel in Australia from rubbish.

Coskata announced plans to create ethanol-from-waste fuel in the USA more than 18 months ago and was quickly joined in a partnership by General Motors, which is the world's largest producer of flex-fuel vehicles capable of running on E85 fuels.

The Australia deal is likely to see a plant built in Victoria to manufacture second-generation ethanol fuel, a move which overcomes the 'food for fuel' debate in the USA where corn stock is the base material for E85.

My comment : sugar belongs in my coffee not my car..

[Eleanor]

I seriously wonder if it's all worth it?

Some reports have shown that the ethanol production process results in a negative net energy balance, that is, more energy is required to create ethanol compared to what we get out of it. This will do nothing to lessen the energy draw on our powers grids. Furthermore, most of our energy generated by our power plants comes from burning coal. In other words, we are basically substituting oil/petrol with a lot more coal when it comes to producing ethanol.

Also, ethanol contains approximately 34% less energy per unit volume than petrol, and therefore will result in a 34% reduction in kilometres to the litre. In other words, if a car gets 20 kpl using regular unleaded, it will only get about 13 kpl when using the same amount of E85. So, more ethanol is needed to drive the same distance then if petrol had been used. We essentially need more E85 to drive the same distance which means we burn more coal, have less efficient vehicles and emit more pollutants. The other consequence is that much more farmland will be needed to grow the crops required for the production of ethanol, in turn reducing the amount of land under agriculture for food production.

And are there really going to be that many ethanol based cars on our roads here to make this a viable proposition for Caltex?

[seduced_xr]

from what i was told E85 will be replacing 91 but our 95 and 98 wont be ****** up, is that correct?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by seduced_xr

from what i was told E85 will be replacing 91 but our 95 and 98 wont be ****** up, is that correct?

No, in some states E10 will replace 91 ULP.
Some outlets already have 10% ethanol blended with 95 & 98 ULP to make 97 & 100 RON E10

[seduced_xr]

eh confusing. leave my 98 alone and ill be happy lol

[Bad Bird]

Originally Posted by Eleanor

Some reports have shown that the ethanol production process results in a negative net energy balance, that is, more energy is required to create ethanol compared to what we get out of it. This will do nothing to lessen the energy draw on our powers grids.

True for corn-based ethanol, not true for many other forms of production such as cane.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by Eleanor

Some reports have shown that the ethanol production process results in a negative net energy balance, that is, more energy is required to create ethanol compared to what we get out of it. This will do nothing to lessen the energy draw on our powers grids. Furthermore, most of our energy generated by our power plants comes from burning coal. In other words, we are basically substituting oil/petrol with a lot more coal when it comes to producing ethanol.

Also, ethanol contains approximately 34% less energy per unit volume than petrol, and therefore will result in a 34% reduction in kilometres to the litre. In other words, if a car gets 20 kpl using regular unleaded, it will only get about 13 kpl when using the same amount of E85. So, more ethanol is needed to drive the same distance then if petrol had been used. We essentially need more E85 to drive the same distance which means we burn more coal, have less efficient vehicles and emit more pollutants. The other consequence is that much more farmland will be needed to grow the crops required for the production of ethanol, in turn reducing the amount of land under agriculture for food production.

Copy and paste much? It's all very insightful and the points being made are all quite valid, but how about we give credit were credit is due - http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/tag/pollution-free/

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by Eleanor

Also, ethanol contains approximately 34% less energy per unit volume than petrol, and therefore will result in a 34% reduction in kilometres to the litre. In other words, if a car gets 20 kpl using regular unleaded, it will only get about 13 kpl when using the same amount of E85.

Well that doesn't add up. According to that E85 would have 34% less energy only if it was 100% ethanol which it isn't. Whoever wrote that needs a new calculator.

[Walkinshaw]

Can't believe the knockers of E85. Bring on E100 or sraight methanol I say. Anything that lets you wind in more timing, boost and cools the inlet charge!! Fuel economy? ... go drown in a urinal.

[InfernoSR]

i'd run E85 in my ute... IF i didnt have to mod the engine to suit... but unfortunatly i have been informed thats not the case... however, if its worth it, and i can get good power from it, then i may do it.

[all torque]

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

True for corn-based ethanol, not true for many other forms of production such as cane.

Bad Bird is right, the yanks use corn because of the weight corn farmers carry over there. Over here we could use sugar which is a much better option.

[Qwik6]

Awesome news. Love Ethanol.

[burnz]

the problem is that ethanol is market dependant.

brazil now have a fuel shortage as the farmer/producers sell overseas for higher return than selling local.

[CAT600]

Great news. E85 is not a one size fits all solution but it certainley fits me.

If burning Coal to supply energy grids is upsetting anyone, quit your sooking and start lobbying the government to build Nuclear powerstations... this will automatically pave the way to mining, exporting and storing Nuclear waste. This is the only real way to get Australia to get onboard "Kyoto" properly and will expand mining operations in three states (Which the govt will supertax anyway for even more income to pay off the foreign debt they have successfully racked up at an unprecedented rate)

There, there's something in that to upset everyone... the most PC part of my post was how good E85 is....

Daniel

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by seduced_xr

eh confusing. leave my 98 alone and ill be happy lol

Make sure you only put BP in then as the rest contain ethanol.

Originally Posted by burnz

the problem is that ethanol is market dependant.

brazil now have a fuel shortage as the farmer/producers sell overseas for higher return than selling local.

The government subsidises our sugar farmers.

[351EL]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Make sure you only put BP in then as the rest contain ethanol.




The government subsidises our sugar farmers.

Really?
The government must be addressing my cheques wrong.

[SVD]

**** yeh E85 for the win! the only thing that is stopping me upgrading my fuel lines etc...is the fact it's not available in enough stations...if at all!

[Eleanor]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

Copy and paste much? It's all very insightful and the points being made are all quite valid, but how about we give credit were credit is due

Yeah sorry about that for the way it has mislead people. At the hour I wrote that post at the end of a very long day my

....

hasn't worked. I didn't pick it up at the time and haven't revisited this topic til now. The first and last lines were mine with the rest modified to get rid of the 'yank speak'.
Apologies again. And yes, credit to weatherimagery.

[Riksta]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Make sure you only put BP in then as the rest contain ethanol.

Shell V-Power is 100% petrol (no ethanol) or so I thought I read somewhere once. It was their V-Power racing (100RON) that had the E10 component from memory, and I don't think they sell that anymore.

And the MSDS for the Caltex Vortex 98 shows "Petroleum Hydrocarbon 90-100%" with no mention of ethanol anywhere on it.

So I just went checked the V-Power MSDS which states "Gasoline Low Boiling Point Naptha 99-100%" with no Ethanol mention either.

[phillyc]

I am looking forward to this E85 rollout! There are upsides to this from performance, import substitution and the 'green' standpoint.

[Silver Ghia]

Concerns have been raised by the AOMC with regard to use of ethanol fuels in older and low usage cars including:

Ability to absorb water over a short period of time, and that the fuel 'goes off' over a shorter period.
Effects on gaskets, seals and the entire fuel systems in many cars have not really been addressed sufficiently.
The fact that some new cars even today do not recommend ethanol fuels.

Research on this subject is now being conducted by the RACV to determine the extent of the problems (if any) with fuels containing ethanol.

Why hasn't this been done already by the relevant authorities before introducing these fuels? Not too long ago, even recent cars at the time suffered severely from the rubbish petrol after unleaded was introduced, until BP Ultimate came along and saved the situation.

I just hope BP leaves Ultimate alone, and continue its availability in the form it is at present.

[SSD-85]

Is the government going to hand out rebates to have my engines rebuilt for E85? Other than that, i'm all for it. Its better than going down the Electric/fuel cell path.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

Can't believe the knockers of E85. Bring on E100 or sraight methanol I say. Anything that lets you wind in more timing, boost and cools the inlet charge!! Fuel economy? ... go drown in a urinal.

One problem I see with it Dan, as said in the article, it will contain 70-85% ethanol. How will you tune a high comp or boosted engine to it and be sure your getting a consistant fuel?

We have had it here at a couple of locations for a while and my info was the same, the fuel at the pump is inconsistant, this may be ok for a mass produced car, but for one tuned on the ragged edge for performance its a recipe for disaster.

[ebxr8240]

I guess if your engine was on the raged edge you would have a wide band on it...
Or tune to a higher concentration of Ethanol ??
To be on the safe side.. Other than adding some C16 for strip etc..

[nugget378]

There is a very fine line between a safe max power tune and one that will rattle itself to death or blacken plugs on a highly tuned engine, will you retune the engine every time you fill the tank.

You can add a race fuel as an anti knock, but max performance will still be hit or miss, you have to know what your dealing with first.

what does this do for engine longevity let alone performance, cant be good, Im not saying e85 is a bad thing, and there is power to be made for those that care about such things, but unless I could get a consistant blend I will stick to what I know, that most consistant fuel for the price out there.

[ebxr8240]

Keep it fat on tune and it will be fine.. Ignition timing is not as critical...

Plug fouling is not the same issue either !!!

High power engines on the edge would have a good ignition system...

Running it on my S480 turbo 4.0 Lexus engine at present..

1000cc injectors, two Aeromotive A1000 fuel pumps, -10 fuel lines..

Admittedly a street engine would not require such a large fuel supply..

[minheim]

You'd be surprised how much ethanol in Australia comes from grain and not sugar crops. Manildra is a big producer and was a generous donating party to the Liberal party. Be interesting to see what volume actually is produced from trash as planned.

My own view is that if ethanol can't compete with petrol without special excise treatment then it is a waste of time and an inefficient use of funds/resources and is only done for short term votes from the rural sector/greens.

[Bundy]

Originally Posted by nugget378

We have had it here at a couple of locations for a while and my info was the same, the fuel at the pump is inconsistant, this may be ok for a mass produced car, but for one tuned on the ragged edge for performance its a recipe for disaster.

mmmm......... V8 supercars, yup big disaster.

mind you they probably don't but it from the local, but this doesn't mean its not 85% all the time either, or they have some really smart chemist adding the seceret herbs and spices.

[Bossxr8]

You can gaurantee that the E85 for V8SC is specially brewed for them so that every barrel is the same octane.

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by nugget378

One problem I see with it Dan, as said in the article, it will contain 70-85% ethanol. How will you tune a high comp or boosted engine to it and be sure your getting a consistant fuel?

We have had it here at a couple of locations for a while and my info was the same, the fuel at the pump is inconsistant, this may be ok for a mass produced car, but for one tuned on the ragged edge for performance its a recipe for disaster.

Yep, 100% this is my only concern for "pump E85".

The timing (octane) side of the problem is solvable as you can run the lesser timing, but the % mixture of Ethanol will change your AFR's considerably.

For example, if your car is tuned to run on winter grade "E70" at a WOT AFR of 12.5:1, by filling up with summer grade "E85", your AFR effectively moves to 13.6:1.

Not cool.

If you apply the reverse AFR logic you would tune for 12.5:1 on summer grade and then when you fuelled with winter grade you would end up at 11.5:1...... this fuel would have lower knock threshhold but as I say you can tune the car with a few degrees less timing to be safe.

As Graeme said, the wideband in the car is the only safe option when the car is set for kill, then have a second state of tune available (be it in the jetting of a carby car or the flash tune in an EFI car)

The V8 SC fuel is exactly 85% and is bloody consistant.

Daniel